Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

Custodians of the countryside at it again.

But the SGA have announced they share the programs anger about the news!

A cynic might suggest what they are most angry about is the tag happened to have sent an update at the location of the incident vs somewhere else.

It helps undermine what little plausible deniability is left around the “mysterious failures” of tags. Like when the one was found wrapped in lead or one where a few fragments were found of it.

SGA’s complete deniability of any fault, their refusal to reform and aggressive rejection of any challenge or alternative use of land will be the thing that finally brings the industry to a close. Good irony and good riddance.

if they really cared about raptor killings then they could co operate with the authorities in finding the perps.  that they do not co operate says a lot

I am so sick of this shit.

I am lucky to live in an area where I have seen ge’s several times and very close. It never fails to be a fabulous heart thumping moment, the birds are phenomenal and I can only imagine how a visitor to Scotland must feel to get a glimpse of one. Yet here we are, still hearing about our incredible wildlife being slaughtered in the name of what?

The tide has turned and the perpetrators are going to be swept into oblivion. They had their chance.

As franksinatra says, good riddance .

I heard a feature on the BBC’s Jeremy Vine show about the British adder is dwindling in numbers as a result of the grouse.

Apparently, the grouse peck out the adders eyes.

Then there’s all the clearing of ‘unwanted’ species from the moors.

BUT THEY PROTECT CURLEWS!!!!!! grouse and pheasant

FTFY.

Agree with so many above – the law is changing, public awareness and opinion turning, funding and grants changing, and I think our changing climate and culture will mean some in the gaming industry will have to re-evaluate how they earn their living or maintain the estate. /end Optimist outlook.

*shocked face*

Link from the tick thread, deer spread ticks. And too many deer spread too many ticks.

We’ve ticks in the garden now, because two deer have been over wintering in our residential street.

So yeah, another reason I think we should cull the majority of deer in Scotland.

The highest rate of Lyme disease in Scotland: The statistics behind Uist’s fight against ticks

We edge closer people.
But I’m worried it’s licensing without any teeth – not high enough standards and no policing.

NatureScot publishes draft Code of Practice for Grouse Moor Management

Ok so its really fox hunting but anyone hear the sound of a barrel being scraped here?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/12/pro-foxhunting-group-says-uk-hunters-protected-ethnic-minority

I mean how laughable is that – they really are deluded folk

I mean how laughable is that – they really are deluded folk

Probably not,they are just looking for loops to place around their holes’ 🙂

<h1 class=”e-headline u-heading-1 ” style=”background-repeat: no-repeat; box-sizing: inherit; font-size: 4.1rem; margin: 0px; padding: 24px 0px 16px; vertical-align: baseline; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.17; font-family: ‘Austin News’, georgia, times, serif; font-variation-settings: ‘wght’ 525, ‘opsz’ 60;” data-test=”headline”>Grouse off the menu for Glorious Twelfth</h1>

London restaurateurs say they are being quoted ‘extortionate’ amounts for a single bird, leaving them unable to honour the tradition

https://archive.is/DF1dd

thoughts and prayers

I’ve just been served an advert by Facebook for a film being pushed by the “Shepherds of Wildlife”

The film is called “The Last Keeper”

The actual film is paywalled, but pro game hunters on FB are describing it as “must see” and, as far as I can tell, appears to be pretending to be putting forward the “protecters of wildlife myth” although you could call me cynical. Its certainly not putting “we just like shooting animals for fun” as front and  centre.

Interview with the filmmaker here https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/tom-opre-the-last-keeper/

Unless the actual film is very different, I’m likely to park this under “pro shooting deeply misleading propaganda”.

Custodians of the countryside at it again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxlpwwx0deo

“BUT WE SAVE THE COUNTRYSIDE!”

I can’t wait until the field sports industry is history.

Franksinatra 100%

The utter bastards

That’s got to be ‘write to your M(S)P to express anger’ level, surely?

^ why, why would anyone shoot an osprey? Fisher folk worried it’s eating the fish?

The issue now of course is that a shot bird doesn’t fly far, so it’s pretty clear cut who owns the land it was shot from. How you prove which individual pulled the trigger… Bet there is a wall of silence.

^ why, why would anyone shoot an osprey? Fisher folk worried it’s eating the fish?

I was chatting to a local Ghillie a few years ago and he was blaming Osprey for poor salmon numbers on the Tweed.

I wonder though if it is more of a shooting mindset, just blast anything out of the sky more from habit than anything else.

Yeah, just chatted with one of my teams husband who stalks on occasion (but misses the day his weapon was supplied by MoD…) and he suggested it could have been trigger happy, over stimulated and excited shooters seeing something move and just blasting it…But then also pointed out in a shoot the ghillie and dogs would have cleared everything up, so they either don’t collect all the birds or have chosen to leave on injured and in pain…

Very late to this thread.. We have been in the Highlands for the last couple of weeks. I was chatting to an Estate Employee and he was telling me that they farm Red Deer (Trophy Deer, 8to12  points etc) They release them for people to shoot.

Now, I was under the impression that Deer were over populating the highlands and that hunters (Stalkers) were culling to reduce numbers back to a sustainable population.. Paying to provide a service as it were, but farming to shoot seems to be against what I was lead to believe. Any more trusted STW info on this would be great to know so I can fully understand.

Starving, over-populated deer don’t produce the kind of trophy heads that the richest guests are looking for.  The kind of guests who will pay absolute top dollar/Euro for a whole entourage of serfs to dress in tweeds and escort them and a pony up the hill to collect the half-tame trophy stag.

That’s immoral in my book and should be condemned.  Just like a guest on the 12th, who shoots an osprey for the sake of it.  There just are not enough sanctions available yet.  It’s also a sadness that the bird had to make it’s way onto the Nature Scot ground in Glen Doll, from wherever it was attacked.  There are a handful of suspect estates nearby, some with quite significant previous for wildlife crime.

They release them for people to shoot.

I have never seen reports of that and it seems unlikely.

Some estates certainly provide massive amounts of winter food in order to keep the numbers high but as far as I am aware thats that.

Not dissimilar to grouse in terms of massive intervention stopping just short of actual farming.

Some estates certainly provide massive amounts of winter food in order to keep the numbers high but as far as I am aware thats that.

That doesn’t seem great if the end result is too many, half-starved deer grazing everything flat the rest of the year?

That doesn’t seem great if the end result is too many, half-starved deer grazing everything flat the rest of the year?

Yes but it stops just short of what is normally termed farming.

If anything it creates more of a problem but the “fieldsports” lot will use anything as an excuse to undermine the arguments against them turning massive areas into green deserts so its best to be precise.

Traditional deer estates are valued on the number of deer.  Winter feeding keeps numbers high.  Hence the overpopulation of half starved deer.  I can believe in the farming of deer to produce good trophies

@TheDTs I can confirm that my daughter works on just that type of estate in Sutherland.

Deer population in Scotland is double what it was in the 90s. It’s far too high and has had a detrimental effect on the environment.

If you go to glen affric for example, you can witness first hand the effects of controlling deer(in this case fencing) and it is startling. The landscape is transformed from the bare green hills that are associated with Scottish glens, to what they should be. A mixture of savanna like glades, forests and open areas. As it stands, nothing regenerates as it is eaten as soon as it pops above the ground. Eventually nothing grows as mature trees die away without regeneration.

You can see the effect in glen feshie too, although here deer have been culled. Trees are beginning to regenerate and climb up the sides of the glen. It’s pretty amazing to witness the transformation over the last 20 years

With the return of the trees and vegetation growth comes the habitat that encourages other flaura and fauna, everything wins.

It’s not just about trees, we’re not talking about returning to some dark medieval forest covering the land. That probably didn’t exist, rather it’s a mix of habitats.

Personally I don’t have an issue with deer stalking for money, food or both, but why it can’t be carried out in amongst a natural habitat of woodlands and savanna I have no idea. Perhaps the Victorian construct of stalking deer across a bald hillside using only guile and a sniper rifle is too strong a romance to let go.

It’s anecdotal on my part, but in early spring I regularly see dead deer that have starved on the hill. There isn’t enough food for the numbers and they die a miserable death

I have to say I am somewhat concerned about where this all goes if we see a change in Scottish government in 2026.

@Gordi, not one of Anders ones, this was on Deeside. we did hear LOTS about the Danish guy though. Very Marmite, it seems..

No not one of Anders ones. I wont say any more than that.

Personally I don’t have an issue with deer stalking for money, food or both, but why it can’t be carried out in amongst a natural habitat of woodlands and savanna I have no idea.

Because when I am paying x grand for a weeks stalking I want to have a nice trophy head or two on my wall by the end of it.

I am not going to be giving a tip or coming back next year if all I have is memories, mostly of being eaten by midges.

So the estate better ensure there are a lot of deer fairly easily available (obviously I want a mild impression of making an effort) for me to shoot which results in the knackered landscape.

Because when I am paying x grand for a weeks stalking I want to have a nice trophy head or two on my wall by the end of it.

i still find it wierd that this a UK specific issue, pretty much everywhere else somedays you shoot something, some days you dont

@kormoran I agree with everything you’re saying, and when we’ve already got an over-borne deer population it seems morally wrong to feed wild deer over the winter and farm deer for release to keep the population high for a very small number of stalkers, while contributing to environmental devastation by over-grazing, in one of the most environmentally deplete countries in Europe. Really we need to be culling wild deer (+/- eating wild venison which is cheap and tasty) to reduce grazing, and make the remaining population healthier.

Given that AIUI the SNP have hardly been a by-word for action on the hunting industry why is a change of government a worry?

Given that AIUI the SNP have hardly been a by-word for action on the hunting industry why is a change of government a worry?

In a nutshell – they could be worse.

In a nutshell – they could be worse.

the right of the SNP are in favour of hunting shooting and fishing.  Fergus Ewing got sidelined but he and others are very much opposed to controls on bloodsports.  I doubt labour would be worse.

 I doubt labour would be worse.

A lab/con coalition though? I don’t know.

the right of the SNP are in favour of hunting shooting and fishing.

I don’t automatically see why you can’t be in favour of hsf and habitat restoration. Unless you only want the bald landscape that we have

A lab/con coalition though?

Is such a thing likely?

I don’t automatically see why you can’t be in favour of hsf and habitat restoration.

No, me neither. But I’d suggest hunting in a restored landscape is going to be much more of a challenge of skill than either driven grouse shooting or deer ‘stalking’ across grazed-flat moorland, and I’m not sure that’s what the shooting estates’ customers want.

A lab/con coalition though?

Is such a thing likely?

Probably not in a formal sense. But getting policy through, in a parliament where you don’t have a majority, requires compromise to be made to Garner support from the other parties. It’s not difficult to see areas around land management being softened or rowed back. That’s not a criticism, it’s how you find the common ground and move forward

I don’t personally think grouse shoots are in danger of disappearing because the appropriate habitat for that pastime would in my view remain. I think there is greater pressure, at least in the shorter term, from the general distaste of the practice.

As far as deer stalking, it strikes me that getting closer to the quarry is easier amongst vegetation. I honestly don’t know what stalking customers want as part of the experience, but I reckon there’s a large element of tradition in it. A tradition that includes razed and denuded landscape.

Less deer in a biodiversity rich environment surely means bigger, healthier deer with a premium on their head. The alternative seems to be shooting fish in a barrel.

I don’t automatically see why you can’t be in favour of hsf and habitat restoration. Unless you only want the bald landscape that we have

You can – Marr lodge with sold with the proviso it must remain run as a sporting estate IIRC  They do “walk up shooting” with bags of a couple rather than driven shooting with bags of hundreds.  They are increasing biodiversity on the estate

As far as deer stalking, it strikes me that getting closer to the quarry is easier amongst vegetation. I honestly don’t know what stalking customers want as part of the experience,

All sorts from what I know – from sitting in a hide in woodland and shooting any deer that walks past to yomping over moorland for miles to take a long distance shot.  The estates vary hugely in approach and biodiversity / deer numbers

All sorts from what I know – from sitting in a hide in woodland and shooting any deer that walks past to yomping over moorland for miles to take a long distance shot. The estates vary hugely in approach and biodiversity / deer numbers

So it seems perfectly possible to satisfy lots of varying interests

If you go back to the affric example – which let’s face it is sadly the only one at the moment – you see a mix of landscape all within one glen. Lower wooded areas, scrubby and more open trees and undergrowth, and then higher slopes, corries and ridges. In that one glen there appears to be a whole range of hunting possibilities should that be your desire.

I’ll go and try to find it, but I read an interesting blog about the ‘scientific evidence’ behind the Nature Scot deer population density recommendations to enable natural regrowth.

The summary was: we’ve seen environmental creep. So many deer for so long that our research suggests culling a few is beneficial, forgetting that the recommendations back in the 1940’s, 1950’s even 1960’s were even lower still. So ‘we’ ‘accept’ a higher number of deer is ‘good’, but forget that a lower number again is better…

Parkswatch of course…

Deer density & the Cairngorms (1) – NatureScot’s target of 10 per sq km for Caenlochan