Goodbye Deore? Hello Shimano CUES!

If 105 is Di2 only

Tell me it ain’t so…

You’ve got to be shitting me. Is this actually the case

105 won’t be Di2 only – its going 12 speed mechanical according to accidentally released info: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-105-12-speed-mechanical/

I’m not taking any chances though – it’s time to stock up on 11 speed 105.

All CUES shifters will actually pull the same amount of cable per actuation; it’s just that the 11-speed shifter will have 11 clicks, the 10 has 10 clicks and the 9 has 9 clicks.

If I’m understanding this correctly, the derailleurs will be the same and the shifters will pull the same amount of cable. That would mean that a 9-speed cassette is just an 11-speed cassette with two fewer sprockets and a narrower overall width. That would mean that CUES 9-speed is not backwards compatible with legacy 9-speed because the cassette spacing is different, the derailleurs are different, and the cable pull is different.

If the CUES 9-speed cassettes are compatible with legacy 9-speed cassettes, then they would need a different derailleur pull ratio than 10 or 11-speed CUES, which would make no sense. So, Shimano have just dropped the legacy stuff and rationalized their drivetrains by removing sprockets from the 11-speed cassettes to create 8, 9, or 10-speed drivetrains, along with shifters that have fewer clicks. Is that correct?

“ So, Shimano have just dropped the legacy stuff and rationalized their drivetrains by removing sprockets from the 11-speed cassettes to create 8, 9, or 10-speed drivetrains, along with shifters that have fewer clicks. Is that correct?”

Yes.

If that is true, then it would be reasonable to think that SRAM mtb 11 and 12 speed mechs and shifters could also be mixed and matched on cues cassettes, should you wish.

If I’m understanding this correctly, the derailleurs will be the same and the shifters will pull the same amount of cable. That would mean that a 9-speed cassette is just an 11-speed cassette with two fewer sprockets and a narrower overall width. That would mean that CUES 9-speed is not backwards compatible with legacy 9-speed because the cassette spacing is different, the derailleurs are different, and the cable pull is different.

I don’t think you are. Derailleurs will be different to move a different distance depending on speed, but for the same cable pull per click from the shifter.

This is groupset designed to stop Shimano haemorrhaging money to SRAM in the OEM market*. Why would they bother making it backwards compatable with years-out-of-date product that they no longer want to sell? Makes zero commercial sense.

Here’s one name groupset for all your below premium bikes; you can spec however many gears you want, mix and match and it will all work together, even e-bikes.

Perfect for someone (me) who maintains bikes for someone at work who is mechanically challenged. I will be suggesting a gear group upgrade when the derailleurs next die.

There’s a couple of good articles on CUES and LinkGlide on NSMB. The cassette spacing and cable pull is the same on all the speeds, the mech just moves farther to cover the wider cassettes as you add more speeds.

You could use an 11 speed mech and shifter with an 8, 9, or 10 speed cassette just by setting the limit screws to a narrower range. Or 11 speed shifter with 8, 9, or 10 speed mech. Just need to ensure that the mech speeds is greater than or equal to the cassette, and the shifter to the mech likewise.

@sirromj By the sound of it there will be narrower range ‘road’ cassettes with the same spacing though? (Not stated but definitely implied if this is superseding Tiagra etc. too)

They’ve twigged that not everyone is impressed by “moar gearz” and I think the sweet spot is going to be 10 or 11 speed for lots of punters.

I’ve got 1×11 XT and frankly I don’t miss the 12th gear I haven’t got. What would be nice is a 34t chainring rather than a 32 but that’s a frame limitation.

as for bringing back front mechs to all bikes, single ring drivetrains have made packaging full suspension gubbins much easier.

Not everyone rides full suspension, moreso at the “affordable” end of the market.

If I’m understanding this correctly, the derailleurs will be the same and the shifters will pull the same amount of cable. That would mean that a 9-speed cassette is just an 11-speed cassette with two fewer sprockets and a narrower overall width. That would mean that CUES 9-speed is not backwards compatible with legacy 9-speed because the cassette spacing is different, the derailleurs are different, and the cable pull is different.

I don’t think you are. Derailleurs will be different to move a different distance depending on speed, but for the same cable pull per click from the shifter.

Nope, I thought that as well but from the NSMB article[/url]:

All LinkGlide cassettes from CUES U4000 to XT M8130 use the same cassette pitch (cog spacing) and the classic HG interface for maximum intercompatibility.

It would appear that we’re in more of a Shimano 5/6/7/8 type situation where the cassette gets bigger as the speeds increase.

On that note, it sounds like we could see a short block Saint update in the future.

None of this will be compatible with HG systems but:

Shimano will continue to manufacture HG drivetrain components for the legions of bicycles out in the wild, and they do have an excellent reputation for supporting legacy drivetrains.

So not all bad news. And I bet there will be a Problem Solver or workaround before long.

They’ve twigged that not everyone is impressed by “moar gearz” and I think the sweet spot is going to be 10 or 11 speed for lots of punters.

You’ve a lot more faith than I that a business is interested in selling you what you want to buy not making you buy what they want to sell.

I might be wrong of course but this to me looks like an exercise in making you want and pay for SLX up not in making a it easier to buy down.

It’ll be great for OEM knocking out thousands of bikes a week “CUES” gears because they can put broadly the same thing on every model and you’ll not be able to tell immediately what you’re getting, and an upgrade to 10 or 11 is comparatively easy to sell if it’s just a new cassette so not much cost to the OEM but more margin.
For after market? I guess you’ll see deore etc gone long before CUES starts to be easily available.

and they do have an excellent reputation for supporting legacy drivetrains.

Much of which I think we’ll rapidly find is predicated on trickle down meaning 2010 xtr “is” 2022 altus.

I want Shimano CUES on a YT Tues.

I’ve got 1×11 XT and frankly I don’t miss the 12th gear I haven’t got. What would be nice is a 34t chainring rather than a 32 but that’s a frame limitation.

12 speed cassette with a 10t smallest cog would sort that for you

the 11-speed shifter will have 11 clicks, the 10 has 10 clicks and the 9 has 9 clicks

11 speed will have 10 clicks, 10 has 9 clicks and 9 has 8 clicks. I’ll get my anorak.

Sorry if I missed this, but have we established if the 11sp stuff has the same pull ratio as existing 11sp Shimano MTB bits?

105 won’t be Di2 only – its going 12 speed mechanical according to accidentally released info: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-105-12-speed-mechanical/

I’m not taking any chances though – it’s time to stock up on 11 speed 105.

Phew!

The concept of their “entry level” groupset costing £1700 alone was just bonkers.

Or 11 speed shifter with 8, 9, or 10 speed mech.

For several years I was using a 9 speed MTB mech (XTR970) with 10 speed shifters (Ultegra 6700). That was an easy way of using a wider-range cassette on a road/touring bike.

That’s what’s on my Escapade… Saint 9 speed mech with 10 speed 105 shifters. Only “just” works to be honest.

Anyway, still looks like a lot of stuff that doesn’t necessarily work together hanging under one name. One freehub and one chain width is very welcome though, that alone simplifies things a lot spares and repairs wise. They also happen to be the best freehub and chain option we’ve had for everyday use.

Am hoping to see the CUES stuff – and have a fuller explanation! – this weekend at Icebike show. Will update y’all Monday with any luck.

The concept of their “entry level” groupset costing £1700 alone was just bonkers.

That 105 is seen as entry level is bonkers, see also deore.

They’re aren’t the entry level, heck below 105 there’s at least sora, claris and tiagra on the road side before you start getting to the actual entry level stuff.

This is also a big part of why we keep moaning about the price of stuff – we’ve rather forgotten that deore etc is high end enthusiast kit so moan it doesn’t come at entry level pricing.

Am confused. So when my XT 11 spd cassette wears out, will I eventually only be able to buy 11spd in this linkglide stuff and end up with a 750g cassette? It sounds good in performance and durability but it is very heavy… is the future that if the rider wants lightweight stuff road & mtb they have to go up to 12spd?

Quietly hoping the wide range 9 speed cassette will be compatible with my old 9 speed XTR shifter, and the 10 speed with Mrs Wachowchow’s 10sp Saint shifter. Hopefully breathing some life into the older spares box parts.

will I eventually only be able to buy 11spd in this linkglide stuff and end up with a 750g cassette?

Which will “only” work with LG chains and rings I belive, and possibly* not your current 11speed mech and Shifter either.

Quietly hoping the wide range 9 speed cassette will be compatible with my old 9 speed XTR shifter, and the 10 speed with Mrs Wachowchow’s 10sp Saint shifter. Hopefully breathing some life into the older spares box parts.

Unlikely if as suggested, the 9 and 10 are physically narrower blocks.

*as yet pure conjecture, I’m inclined to think the spacing will probably change and I’m not sure if a 50t fits the mech as is (happy to be corrected on that)

Am confused. So when my XT 11 spd cassette wears out, will I eventually only be able to buy 11spd in this linkglide stuff and end up with a 750g cassette?

It’s replacing the lower end ranges, so they’ll probably still be making XT parts in 11sp.

Sunrace do very good 11sp cassettes as well though FYI.

Unlikely if as suggested, the 9 and 10 are physically narrower blocks.

*as yet pure conjecture, I’m inclined to think the spacing will probably change and I’m not sure if a 50t fits the mech as is (happy to be corrected on that)

The article says that the shifters will pull the same amount of cable per shift, just have a different number of clicks. If the derailleurs are using the same pull ratio, then the cassettes must have the same spacing between sprockets, so a 10 speed cassette is just an 11 speed with one sprocket removed.

It would make no sense to have different pull ratios on the derailleurs. It’s much cheaper to just make them all the same, just like how 8-speed and 9-speed derailleurs are compatible. Then, all you need to do to change the number of gears is to make a minor change to the shifter to limit how many clicks are available, remove sprockets from the cassette, and add a spacer in place of the missing sprockets. Much cheaper way to do it.

It’s replacing the lower end ranges, so they’ll probably still be making XT parts in 11sp.

Whilst there’s no info to suggest otherwise I’m not sure how long that will bear out, as is xt 11 is obsolete. It makes sense to continue to produce it whilst it can be up sold and you’re producing current compatible 11speed kit so the tooling, machine time, space etc is there for 11speed anyway.

As I read the releases, with the advent of cues all the 11 speed mtb kit that is current will stop being produced. At that point how long does it make commercial sense to produce (now 4 year old) kit simply to support people not buying the stuff you want to sell?

Historically they’ve been very good at continuing 7 8 9 10 etc but they have still been producing current stuff in the same speeds.

If history is anything to go by you’ll be safe for many years but I wouldn’t be surprised to see the back catalogue rationalised in due course off the back of this.
(genuinely no idea by how long after friction shifters stopped being current on low end groups did they stop making them for anything at all?)

CUES

I could be wrong, looking at the images for the cranksets, looks like they have dropped the HTII cranksets at deore level.

I wonder how its going to affect GRX. As that seemed to rely on legacy 11 speed HG cassettes etc.

I wonder how its going to affect GRX

Grxt and grxtr coming soon…

@asbrooks Were they ever HT2 though? HT2 is the hollow-forged crank arm and the external BB Deore cranks on the Hybrid of Doom definitely aren’t that.

Which will “only” work with LG chains and rings I belive, and possibly* not your current 11speed mech and Shifter either.

At least they’ve not gone to 10mm pitch chain or anything.

The article says that the shifters will pull the same amount of cable per shift, just have a different number of clicks. If the derailleurs are using the same pull ratio, then the cassettes must have the same spacing between sprockets, so a 10 speed cassette is just an 11 speed with one sprocket removed.

Pull ratio is a derailleur characteristic. It’s the ratio of the movement of the jockey wheels horizontally to the amount of cables pulled. This will be the same all rear derailleurs in the system

What will vary is the blocks and shifters. These will need to match. But the block spacing can vary between speeds. A click on a 9 shifter can be set to pull slightly more cable than a click on a 10 speed shifter for example.

So did the article say same pull ratio or same cable pulled per click?

GRX is a different range, which seems to cover a big variety of bikes from mid-range to high end using a relatively small amount of options.

Don’t see it being affected by this, but might be due an update soon-ish.

That 105 is seen as entry level is bonkers, see also deore.

They’re aren’t the entry level, heck below 105 there’s at least sora, claris and tiagra on the road side before you start getting to the actual entry level stuff.

6 Vs 1/2 Doz.

Yes Deore/Tiagra has always been perfectly good and with a few awfull exceptions has generally always got better. And is the sensible choice if you’re on a budget.

But SLX/105 was always the point where you got 90% of the good trickle down stuff like aluminum cassette spiders, indexed front shifting (105), aluminum chainrings, metal shifter internals. It was the ‘entry level’ to ‘proper’ cycling.

This is also a big part of why we keep moaning about the price of stuff – we’ve rather forgotten that deore etc is high end enthusiast kit so moan it doesn’t come at entry level pricing.

Ohh, the only reason for Deore to now appear to be inspirationally priced is that we’ve (largely self inflicted) shafted the value of our currency over the last 15-20 years via low interest rates and Brexit.

I’ve got it

It’s same cassettes spacing, same pull ratio and same cable pulled per click

I could be wrong, looking at the images for the cranksets, looks like they have dropped the HTII cranksets at deore level.

Deore has always been 2 peice, not hollowtech, external BB type. Cues is 2 peice also, external BB etc. however it may be, maybe, that it now attached via driveside rather than non driveside.

Aye – Deore hasn’t been Hollowtech since the old Octalink cranks. All 24mm axle/outboard bearing variants have been solid forged arms.
Look to still be fixed DS/removable NDS. The pic with the bolted DS would be the entry Sq Taper model I’d imagine.

I dont believe they’re dropping Deore either, I think its Deore 5100 thats become CUES U6000, Deore M6100 remains. Cues is essentially a rejig of a mismatched group of groupsets including everything linkglide, Deore 4100 and 5100, Alivio and lots of non series bits.

Ah, what I meant was the external BB, possible square taper BB. Hadn’t realised that deore wasn’t TH. Everyday’s a school day!
Deore M6100 remains? oh my head hurts..

Deore M6100 remains.

Yeah I’m sure I read in another report that Shimano’s 12sp MTB lineup is remaining intact.

Might just be the STW write-up which incorrectly says everything below SLX is being culled.

From Pinkbike:

There will still be a Deore 12-speed Hyperglide+ group, and everything beneath it will be part of the CUES family.

It was a bit nuts having three varieties of Deore, If we’re honest.

😀

Sorry if I missed this, but have we established if the 11sp stuff has the same pull ratio as existing 11sp Shimano MTB bits?

It does not. The NSMB article has more info.

Whilst there’s no info to suggest otherwise I’m not sure how long that will bear out

Once again, all in the NSMB article.

@finbar why would you choose to put CUES on a YT Tues beyond marketing cues or is this just an elaborate trolling ruse?