Glencoe… an inconvenient truth.

Seriously though, having lived and worked in the Alps (Summer and Winter) for many years, I would be interested to hear some insight into why you think ski resorts make more money in summer than they do in winter.

Seriously, I really would.

OK, on the subject of snow and the lack of it, I’ll cite this old report..

the pertinent paragraph..

3.6 Scottish skiing has tended to become unreliable, which has lead to the cancellation of events, some of which have been moved to the European Alps. Reductions in revenue from skiing activities have impacted directly on re-investment and staff have frequently had to be paid off. There has been some evidence of a declining commitment to snow-based activities, which has resulted in decreases in membership of some ski clubs and the consequent loss of club facilities. Because snow cover has become less reliable, skiers have become more opportunistic in their behaviour patterns and marketing has emphasised that last-minute decision making is possible.

That report was up until 2001 and from memory it was later than that 2004-7 maybe at the time business in snow products dropped off severely in Scotland.

Here read it and ask yourself if you were a ski resort wehter you should invest instead in downhill MTB’s

Which at the end of the day is the subject we’re debating here is it not?

Brian Stark Boardwise?

Jesus there’s a name from the past. Used to own Mach in Lady Lawson Street IIRC.

Nice guy / younger than me.

You are talking p1sh btw.

when were these 3 straight years when there was no snow in Scotland ?

I’m out every winter in the Scottish mountains and I’m struggling to remember when this was.

nealglover – Member
Seriously though, having lived and worked in the Alps (Summer and Winter) for many years, I would be interested to hear some insight into why you think ski resorts make more money in summer than they do in winter.

Seriously, I really would.

I think that because i was told that by the Whistler Blackcombe team, for all the reasons I cited.

Now maybe they were slick sales folk selling their bike park building skills, which they had also convinced other Alpine resorts to take up.

Then I heard, again in France that several of the big resorts, Alpe Duez, Chamonix, Les Deux Alpes, Porte de Solais were also reporting similar enhanced profitability.

My Colleagues in Switzerland also reported increased summer profitable resort activity in Verbier I think it was, don’t quote me, I don’t get why you all doubt it?

Is this another “he’s not an atheist we should burn him thing?”

Whitegoodman,

You have just posted an article that basically proves what you said to be utter balls.

If there was three straight years without snow in Scotland, ever, do you not think they might have mentioned it in that article ?

enhanced profitability.

As in

“More profit in summer now, compared to summer when we didn’t offer mountain biking”

NOT

“More profitable in summer than we are in winter”

There is a MASSIVE difference.

… I don’t get why you all doubt it?

Because its utter bobbins.

WGM

DH mtb is niche within a niche. In my view White Corries, aka Glencoe, would require substantial investment to make it remotely attractive to a wider audience (Mincers) IIRC there are a whole raft of restrictions on the use of and development of that particular hillside. That’s before we start discussing the weather, geology, ageing infrastructure etc.

Without being negative, you have to be realistic about what is possible on that site. And certainly in the current economic climate…

And as others have pointed out Scotland should be playing to its other mtb strengths – not trying to compete with uplift models on an Alpine / NA American scale.

I have no doubt there is a living to be made by a BMS type outfit and that the operator could make a modest profit on that operation. It’s also clear that both parties are at least committed to further development at Glencoe so I for one hope they can bury their differences and sort it out. Offline.

nealglover – Member
enhanced profitability.
As in

“More profit in summer now, compared to summer when we didn’t offer mountain biking”

NOT

“More profitable in summer than we are in winter”

If you turnover say 18 million in winter but it costs you 18.1 million and you lose 100 thou, then in the summer you turnover say 2 million but it only costs you 1 million. (because all the fixed costs of the leased machinery are amortised with the winter accounts book) you made 1 million which makes the summer more profitable than the winter.

There were three very bad seasons in Scotland, OK it may be very glib to say there was no snow, but working in that business it’s the way it gets talked about, the same as last season (2011)there was no snow before Christmas, so nobody booked, so another bad season followed, the Snowboard business went into crisis as a result, another tale don’t ask me to quantify please.

But the point of the assertion is to back the OP in his business plan, which is still a solid idea, unfortunately last summer didn’t happen, everybody suffered, every outdoor business suffered even kayak chains went bust.

theblackmount – Member
WGM

DH mtb is niche within a niche. In my view White Corries, aka Glencoe, would require substantial investment to make it remotely attractive to a wider audience (Mincers) IIRC there are a whole raft of restrictions on the use of and development of that particular hillside. That’s before we start discussing the weather, geology, ageing infrastructure etc.

Without being negative, you have to be realistic about what is possible on that site. And certainly in the current economic climate…

And as others have pointed out Scotland should be playing to its other mtb strengths – not trying to compete with uplift models on an Alpine / NA American scale.

I have no doubt there is a living to be made by a BMS type outfit and that the operator could make a modest profit on that operation. It’s also clear that both parties are at least committed to further development at Glencoe so I for one hope they can bury their differences and sort it out. Offline.

Totally agree.

But the one sells the other, (MTB skills coaching)

If you turnover say 18 million in winter but it costs you 18.1 million and you lose 100 thou, then in the summer you turnover say 2 million but it only costs you 1 million. (because all the fixed costs of the leased machinery are amortised with the winter accounts book) you made 1 million which makes the summer more profitable than the winter.

I understand how business accounting works. I’ve been running my own business for years.

The first word of your post is the one that’s most important.

“IF”

And I’m saying that does not happen.

If it did, then there would be more profit in summer.

But it doesn’t.

And there isn’t.

Well I was told different and I choose to believe them and their sales pitch because it suits me, a bit like Clairvoyancy I guess. 😉

And they had a powerpoint presentation on a big screen and you don’t.

I don’t have a power point presentation for you to misunderstand no.

Just years of industry experience, and common sense.

Somebody isn’t wrong on the internet again and keeping you up then? 😆

Insomnia keeps me up.

People talking balls about stuff just passes the time.

Even when there IS snow, the Lecht is often shut because no-one can get near the place (as an aside). I drovepast Glencoe today and wondered what had become of the pproposed trails, so have read this thread with interest.

Can’t really add anything new but will agree strongly with those saying you cannot have a decent mtb trail which is also suitable for diggers / atvs. You just can’t. It would need to be a motorway along the lines of Glentress’ swooopiest bits but twice as wide. It would need an access route following the trail.

That said, why is is needed at all?

Well I need my sleep and I’m pretty much done anyway, note those three years came after that report by the way..

A couple of points from above about places becoming the Scottish Whistler or the Welsh Morzine etc. It’s a problem Oz seems to suffer with too.

Stop trying to compare to something very different. Be yourself, market yourself then
a) People wont be disappointed if they have actually traveled
b) Remember you for what you are not what you are not

The wilds of Scotland should be that, make ways to access the wilderness etc.

If you turnover say 18 million in winter but it costs you 18.1 million and you lose 100 thou, then in the summer you turnover say 2 million but it only costs you 1 million. (because all the fixed costs of the leased machinery are amortised with the winter accounts book of creative accounting) you made 1 million which makes the summer more profitable than the winter.

FTFY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVpb_2spDg&feature=youtube_gdata_player lol etc…

Well for whats its worth – here are the actual figures:

Season Skier Days 5 Year rolling average

2001/02 81,400
2002/03 44,800
2003/04 58,500
2004/05 55,586
2005/06 55,000 59,057
2006/07 38,553 50,488
2007/08 62,000 53,928
2008/09 65,000 55,228
2009/10 144,000 72,911
2010/11 121,420 86,195
2011/12 66,000 91,684
2012/13 75,000 94,284 (to 4th March 2013)

So, whilst it maybe correct to assert that Scottish skiing endured a very lean period 2002 – 2006 it didn’t exactly shut down (as you claimed.)

Someone above mentioned the Lecht – there’s some parallels. This too is privately owned, it actually has (or had) year round uplift and has, or had, a couple of lift served DH tracks. It hasn’t had massive grants / subsidies like Cairngorm for example. And like Glencoe there is no local community. How does the Lechts mtb operation perform? Pretty poorly is my hunch.

I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

We have got open access to our trails – free.

Countries which have restricted access need trail centres so there’s somewhere to ride, but we have everywhere. Thus the USA methodology may be flawed for application in Scotland – there’s no captive audience here.

In other words, there’s still people in Scotland who will use a trail centre, but there’s a smaller pool than in countries with restricted trails.

epicyclo – Member
I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

Well I had a look back and I did take some photographs of the construction they were undergoing back in 2008 it was.

I can’t see anything quite as bold being undertaken by the Scottish resorts and especially in the case of this incident where they clearly don’t value the efforts being made by those already engaged.

But just the same there is an opportunity to create something more reliable than hoping that the snowfall will continue to provide the income necessary to cover the infrastructure, it’s overheads and the ground management that the years to come will bring.

Pity they can’t resolve their differences and find the man in the Saab.

>I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.<

Well in this instance you are talking about something highly specialised i.e chairlift assisted gravity trails. Whether you can build and run a bike park (as a commercial venture) and draw visitors in, in sufficient numbers to see a return on that investment is a different matter. entirely.

Personally I’ve never seen the attraction in jumping in the car every week to go and ride the same trails but I realise there are many folk who do. I remember being comprehensively flamed on this very forum for bigging up Cathkin Braes – wrong place, full of ne’er do wells and Junkies, why go there when you can go to Glentress yada yada. Well it aint looking so daft an idea now I believe. Build a bike park near Glasgow – that’s where most of the people live 😉

WGM

Do you actually know anything about the Scottish ski scene? There are virtually no parallels with Europe / NA.

>I can’t see anything quite as bold being undertaken by the Scottish resorts and especially in the case of this incident where they clearly don’t value the efforts being made by those already engaged.<

And what do you know of the history of Glencoe or more specifically the current owner? AFAIK the guy sunk his own personal £ into rescuing the place so I’m quite happy to give him the benefit of the doubt until I see EVIDENCE to the contrary. At present this “incident” is just a couple of dudes slagging each other by keyboard.

epicyclo – Member

I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

writing as an englander: what they offer is a weather proof trail, that’s just about the right length, just about the right level of fun/difficulty, in a beautiful country.

(it’s a bit subtle, but there’s the ‘highly specialized something’)

when i visit Scotland i have a choice; guaranteed good trails, or guaranteed map-faffing with a possibility of good trails (with a high likelyhood of carrying my bike, my girlfriend, and her bike, through a bog).

theblackmount – Member

Personally I’ve never seen the attraction in jumping in the car every week to go and ride the same trails but I realise there are many folk who do.

my total guess is that most people at any given centre don’t go there every week, it’ll be a ‘once every few years’ visit.

I haven’t been back to Kirroughtree for a couple of years, it’ll be next year at the earliest that i can go again. Any ‘Natural’ trails nearby would have to be extremely awesome (and easy to find) to draw me away from the fantastic man-made stuff.

epicyclo – Member

I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

That must be why Glentress etc are all abandoned and unridden 😉

WGM

Do you actually know anything about the Scottish ski scene? There are virtually no parallels with Europe / NA.

No, should I?

I once rode Cairngorm(Snowboard speak), nasty experience, on the one day we had every form of weather known to man almost simultaneously and at one point were forced to stop dead despite goggles, face masks simply from the pain the hail inflicted on the tip of our noses.

I have got a certificate somewhere to prove it or that I survived a meal in that cafe.

As to the subject we’re debating, I still can’t quite get to the bottom of your angst with my albeit glib posts on the matter, surely we are broadly both in agreement that they sort their differences and have another go?

It’s still that Clairvoyant thing isn’t it, you think I should have been flamed even more so not to return?

>when i visit Scotland i have a choice; guaranteed good trails, or guaranteed map-faffing<

Sorry, but that’s just a ridiculous comment – the internet is awash with highly detailed trail information nowadays. What you and many others want is certaintity and that’s fair enough.

Back to the point. Glencoe is not a Trail Centre or a Bike Park. Should or could it become one is the issue.

>my total guess is that most people at any given centre don’t go there every week, it’ll be a ‘once every few years’ visit.<

My total guess is that you’d be very wrong – I reckon GT is rammed with week on week users. And to be brutally frank(and good though I’m sure it is) Kirroughtree and many of the others have very low visitor numbers.

WGM

>As to the subject we’re debating, I still can’t quite get to the bottom of your angst with my albeit glib posts on the matter,<

When you come on the forum and utter complete tosh as if it were fact you leave yourself open to ridicule. I’ve corrected your misinformation with some hard facts so I’ll say no more.

>surely we are broadly both in agreement that they sort their differences and have another go?<

Yes we are.

Goodbye.

2 years or so ago the Seven Stanes project was listed in Scotlands top 20 list of tourist attractions (The list was based on revenue streams) – It’s perhaps a little unfair to call the Seven Stanes a single attraction since it’s so geographically spread but it still demonstrates the economic impact that mountain biking has had and is continuing to have. That’s comparing it with castles and lochs and monsters and things. That’s really quite amazing! Mountain biking in Scotland (everywhere really) is on the climb in terms of revenue streams brought into the local economies where it takes place – even if sales of actual mountain bikes aren’t keeping pace with those or road bikes at the moment.

I’ve also sat down with the regional marketing director of Verbier and asked him directly the financial impact of mountain biking as a growing resource on their yearly revenue streams. This was 7 years ago mind. he said it was 80% snow 20% summer, but that he expects that the growth in development of mountain biking in the resort would continue to shift that ratio in favour of the summer. he said the biggest hurdle was the lift companies who still operated an historic business model that revolved around summer shutdowns. He also said many of the managers of lift companies were keen surfers and the last thing they really wanted was a summer season that kept them away from the coast 🙂

The last decade has seen dramatic development in summer seasons in many traditional winter resorts to try and either offset winter declines and/or exploit the potential MTB summers.

My opinion? Any ski resort that puts up resistance to development on this front is fighting a wave of development that others are riding. From a long term business pov I’d be developing MTB trails on my mountain with some eagerness. But then I’m totally biased aren’t I 🙂

Mark

Glencoe is not a ski resort. It’s a very exposed hill with some ageing ski lifts and, as far as I’m aware, some very real issues in terms of what it can actually build.

The guy who owns it is not putting up resistance for gods sake he’s trying to make it viable. And he’s fallen out with BMS. Sh1t happens, they will either resolve their differences and move forward or an alternative solution will be found.

But as for developing Glencoe as a Trail Centre, Bike Park etc well may be on some level but comparisons with Verbier et al are fanciful.

ahwiles – Member

my total guess is that most people at any given centre don’t go there every week, it’ll be a ‘once every few years’ visit.

Oops, missed this- I don’t have numbers but I ride at Glentress and Innerleithen often and anecdotally, most people that you talk to there are pretty regular- not every week but several times a year. Down at the D&G Stanes that’s probably less true though.

Trail centres in Scotland don’t have to be super specialized to beat universal access, they just have to be good. And most of them are. But that’s a whole other thread 😉

Sounds like a pretty rough few years; hope everything picks up for you in future.

Apologies, that opening remark was rather dismissive of Glencoe as a resort – I meant in comparative / accepted terms.

I learned to ski @ White Corries many years ago, I have a profound affection for it and my family have a long connection with it. I also have the utmost respect for the guy that took it on and I sincerely hope it continues to flourish. But some folk are getting carried away with the fairies here…

Glencoe is not a ski resort. It’s a very exposed hill with some ageing ski lifts

Summed up perfectly.

Raced the MacAvalanche and also spent one day snowboarding there. Now I just drive straight past and up to Fort Bill.

No, should I?
I once rode Cairngorm(Snowboard speak), nasty experience, on the one day we had every form of weather known to man almost simultaneously and at one point were forced to stop dead despite goggles, face masks simply from the pain the hail inflicted on the tip of our noses.

I (and many others) have had that sort of experience at Glencoe in the summer. There is zero shelter on the way up or down, this does not make for family fun.

theblackmount – Member
WGM

>As to the subject we’re debating, I still can’t quite get to the bottom of your angst with my albeit glib posts on the matter,<

When you come on the forum and utter complete tosh as if it were fact you leave yourself open to ridicule. I’ve corrected your misinformation with some hard facts so I’ll say no more.

>surely we are broadly both in agreement that they sort their differences and have another go?<

Yes we are.

Goodbye.

It’s not utter tosh though is it, if it were, you wouldn’t be reacting so, what can I say, er angrily?

Is this a Scots not liking English advice thing I wonder?

Mark makes my point in perhaps a little less vague way, Ski resorts do need to take up the opportunity that the new generation of Mountain Bikes offer, and Scottish resorts the more so, due precisely to the unreliable nature of their snow cover.
You may think a few inches of grabby wet mush is Snow, where I live it’s quicker to drive to the Alps (that can also be unreliable these days)than huck it all the way up to the land of the angry dour and miserly.
Have you ever taken a downhill bike vacation? It carries all the thrill and fun of ski-ing and a well managed resort caters for all levels, it’s not just about balls out downhill, there is a very pretty trail in Whistler I could take my mother down bless her if she were still alive, they are our sports future so we should be united in encouraging the enterprise displayed here, not offering reasons not to.

I wondered if you were trolling.

Now I know.

The guy who owns it is not putting up resistance for gods sake he’s trying to make it viable.

Really? It seems to me that they’re unwilling to invest, instead trying to make a half arsed trail/access road hybrid. The need to do it properly (which will require some investment) or forget about it. If they’re not willing to pay someone £75/day to build a trail which could attract summer visitors, then they need to stick with what they know and leave MTBing to others.