The guy who owns it is not putting up resistance for gods sake he’s trying to make it viable. And he’s fallen out with BMS. Sh1t happens, they will either resolve their differences and move forward or an alternative solution will be found.

He might be trying to make it viable and be keen to do so but the apparent reason he’s fallen out with the OP is not because of his resistance but rather the attitude/resistance of his staff (as per the OP’s long winded post and the owner’s rebuttal). So, the issue is not about re-educating the owner, but the owner re-educating his employees. Specifically that, if they want to see their jobs’ future secured, they should buy in to the idea of diversification.

It’s all well and good the OP and owner sitting down and shaking hands/making up but until the owner can get his people to change their attitudes then the whole thing is not going anywhere.

I once rode Cairngorm(Snowboard speak), nasty experience, on the one day we had every form of weather known to man almost simultaneously and at one point were forced to stop dead despite goggles, face masks simply from the pain the hail inflicted on the tip of our noses.

Awww poopykins, did the wickle snowfwakes hurt your nosey wosey? 😛

bigjim – Member

Awww poopykins, did the wickle snowfwakes hurt your nosey wosey?

Yes it did, it made them bleed, but then we were riding fast, not something any of the locals would countenance. 😀

>the apparent reason<

Yeah quite. This is all just talk…

I agree the hybrid track seems ridiculous but as I’ve explained ad nauseum there may be very real reasons why this is so. We’re not dealing with some cookie cutter Sitka forest here.

Who says the owner has the Landowners permission to, or wants to or needs to build a Mtb Trail Centre as such? It’s their gig.

Right, I’m out of here. Been nice chatting.

‘poopykins’ 😆

It’s not utter tosh though is it, if it were, you wouldn’t be reacting so, what can I say, er angrily?

Well at least two of things you have claimed have been shown to be complete rubbish yes.

“Most ski resorts make more profit in summer than they do in winter”
“Scotland had three straight years with no snow”

[Quote]Is this a Scots not liking English advice thing I wonder?[/quote]

I’m English. So no.

[Quote]Mark makes my point in perhaps a little less vague way[/quote]

Mark said the Marketing Director told him that one of the things you claimed (above) was rubbish 😉

You may take that as “making your point”

Most people would see it as a kick in the nadgers (ooof!)

[Quote]Ski resorts do need to take up the opportunity that the new generation of Mountain Bikes offer, and Scottish resorts the more so, due precisely to the unreliable nature of their snow cover.[/quote]

Agreed.

But making up statistics and historic weather conditions doesn’t help you make that point.

From a long term business pov I’d be developing MTB trails on my mountain with some eagerness.

I presume you’re sitting on piles of cash from all the STW advertising revenue – go buy yourself a mountain, Mark 😉

It’s all well and good the OP and owner sitting down and shaking hands/making up but until the owner can get his people to change their attitudes then the whole thing is not going anywhere.

Which is still down to the owner wanting to do this enough. If he does then I can’t see why it should be a problem re-educating his staff – he does after all pay their wages.

I think we all agree that airing dirty linen on here doesn’t help that process – hopefully the fact the two people involved haven’t posted for a while means they’ve taken that on board. Though hopefully they’re also still reading this (at least the good bits) and realise they do still both have the support of the community. Not that my opinions are really all that relevant – I’m probably just about as likely to walk on the moon as ride a downhill resort.

Good debate seems to have descended into bickering – now that is unusual!

Anyway

2 years or so ago the Seven Stanes project was listed in Scotlands top 20 list of tourist attractions (The list was based on revenue streams)

I’m sure I’ve read that Glentress is the single biggest visitor attraction in the Borders. So there is plenty of potential for making money out of MTBing in Scotland.

I think Glencoe is in the wrong location – Fort William is too, but it has the added draw of the World Cup and has had years of grants and promotion to brand it as “The UK’s Outdoor Capital” It already has XC trails and two lift served routes but I can’t see it being developed further

One guy however well intentioned is going to really struggle to turn Glencoe into an MTB destination but fair play for giving it a go, I hope he proves me wrong.

Cairngorm would be the place to try and develop an uplift mtb destination. Its more centrally located and already has lots of non uplift trails nearby that could be developed further to turn Cairngorm in to a proper “destination” mtb centre. There does seem to be some resistance to developing it as a mountain biking centre though, due to the sensitivity of some of the local habitats. Mind you this didn’t stop them sticking the white elephant furnicular in.

STW nerds arguing over snow/MTB profit/loss has ruined this thread for me, I hope you’re all happy!
Now, can we get back to shady business practises and tattooed geezers in car parks before I give up and do some real work?

Northwind – Member
…That must be why Glentress etc are all abandoned and unridden

That’s an exception. It was placed there for the benefit of city folk who can’t read maps. Anyhow, it’s so far south, it’s practically in England. 🙂

On a more serious note, it shows that for success as a trail centre in a country with open access, you need to be close to major population centres. It’s got Edinburgh, Glasgow and close to the north of England. That’s well placed.

Wow, well I’m really encouraged to go to scotchland for my biking holiday, sounds like a great welcoming place….

Oh no, hang on, I’m going to the Alps, phew.

From a long term business pov I’d be developing MTB trails on my mountain with some eagerness.

Entering into SingleGuessWorld here, but ownership of land and ownership of the ski centre on top of it are two different things.

At Nevis Range it’s Rio Tinto Alcan up top and FC below isn’t it? Seem to remember the lease arrangements here control the mtb trails can open.

I’m sure I’ve read that Glentress is the single biggest visitor attraction in the Borders. So there is plenty of potential for making money out of MTBing in Scotland.

Or **** all else to do in the Borders 😉

Glentress is a multi-activity site so it’s not just about mountain biking and, like it or not, there is a much, much larger market of “mincers” to cater to as opposed to rad DHers. Glencoe has nothing to offer in that regard and also suffers from lack of local accommodation or any other facilities.

The most likely candidates for uplifted riding in Scotland are Cairngorm and Innerleithen. The former suffers from development restraints related to the environment and the latter from lack of infrastructure. I really do wish them well on getting that resolved but it is still chasing a very small demographic. Coire na Ciste at Cairngorm has the potential to be the absolute #1 goto mountain biking destination in the UK.

epicyclo – Member

On a more serious note, it shows that for success as a trail centre in a country with open access, you need to be close to major population centres.

No it doesn’t- it’s an example of a success that’s close to a major population centre, that hardly proves that all successes need to be. Perfect example is Laggan, to get there you drive to the middle of nowhere then turn left, and the closest thing they have to a population centre is 2 men taking turns *****ing a sheep. But it’s not just a success- it achieved almost a full return on the initial investment in 1 year.

All the stanes are considered succesful in terms of visitor numbers and benefits to the local areas, but only GT and Innerleithen are really convenient to the cities. Golspie feels forgotten now but “broke even” as it were years ago. And then there’s Nevis Range- which sure, has the unique gondola access but is also well ridden as an XC venue despite really not being that standout.

Coire na Ciste at Cairngorm has the potential to be the absolute #1 goto mountain biking destination in the UK.

Absolutely, they have already ruined the hill with the ski area (I say that as someone who uses it fairly frequently) so I don’t see why the addition of a few well designed blue through red and black dh runs would make that much difference. With some decent downhill runs in place I can’t see anyone pedalling off up and across the environmentally sensitive plateau.

“Wow, well I’m really encouraged to go to scotchland for my biking holiday, sounds like a great welcoming place….
Oh no, hang on, I’m going to the Alps, phew.”

nickc, I wouldn’t base the destination of your holiday on this thread (not that you would I know). Scotland has some incredible mountain biking, however Whistler Bike Park or Les Gets it is not, which is fine.

Not that I’m inclined to the North of this fair land, but has anyone produced a definitive guide to the trails up there, reading this so far y’all may as well be speaking gaelic. I know about Ft William because everybody does I guess, but Innerleithen? Glentress? And that seven strand thing whatever it is, where do you go to see the lot mapped out? Mrs Goodman despite my protestations and warnings about Midge attacks has expressed a desire to cross the border, before they wall it off, so there could be a deal to be struck here if I get to ride stuff, I might even get to try the Glencoe place first hand you never know, are there Hotels with running water electricity and stuff?

Whitegoodman has to be trolling!

It looks like he’s trying to cover up his previous “Factual Posts” with a healthy dose of “Obvious Troll”

Kind of like a Subtle variation of the Edinburgh Defence.

Not that I’m inclined to the North of this fair land, but has anyone produced a definitive guide to the trails up there, reading this so far y’all may as well be speaking gaelic. I know about Ft William because everybody does I guess, but Innerleithen? Glentress? And that seven strand thing whatever it is, where do you go to see the lot mapped out?

I’ll humour you:

7 Stanes Website

You can even download trail maps for free if you register on the site

On the off-chance that you are genuine wgm:

that seven strand thing whatever it is, where do you go to see the lot mapped out?

http://www.7stanesmountainbiking.com/Home

has anyone produced a definitive guide to the trails up there

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/

Mrs Goodman despite my protestations and warnings about Midge attacks

Not really an issue in the Borders.

Slowly but slowly more and more outdoor events, companies and people are moving into the Tweed Valley – and it seems to be working. Its near enough to the Northern population centres of England for day-trippers and within 30-40 mins of Edinburgh (an hour to Glasgow).

The Inners uplift should really help.

Brycey….Innit 🙂

I’ve often thought about Scotland for either skiing or MtB holidays ( done most of the Stanes at some point) and then I read threads like these, and I remind myself why the tourist industry and Scotland make such uneasy bedfellows.

Sort of infighting that if it was a Brookmyre or Banks novel you’d dismiss as whimsy….

Late back to the party, but as an accountant, that description finally dragged out of WGM of how he reckons summers are “more profitable” than winters for ski resorts is, to use the technical jargon favoured by us beancounting types, complete horsepoo.

Thankyou GrahamS & Richmtb, I genuinely had never heard of those 7 until this day, they look very appealing, where does this ‘trolling’ paranoia come from? An ignore poster feature would make this place a little more appealing wouldn’t it, then we could all rub along just fine and not allow ourselves to be wound up by generalisations which I do admit to being guilty of, but whatever, the base logic remains the same, resorts do increase their profitability by de seasonalisation and the profit ratio is higher, and Scotland suffered three seasons of poor snow conditions, which those of us in the business refer to as ‘no snow’ and if that offends your highland sensibilities then I’m sorry for that.

where does this ‘trolling’ paranoia come from?

Maybe the same place as whatever made you accuse me of being a “big hitter” 🙄

resorts do increase their profitability by de seasonalisation

Thats not the same as what you previously claimed though is it ?

Scotland suffered three seasons of poor snow conditions, which those of us in the business refer to as ‘no snow’

As I said before, I lived and worked in the Alps for 10 years. In “the business”

“No snow” means that there isn’t any snow.

We used to use that description in summer if that helps to clarify.

than huck it all the way up to the land of the angry dour and miserly.

Adds WGM to the lengthy STW phuckwit list.

Its taken 6 pages for you to do that? 😉

edlong – Member
Late back to the party, but as an accountant, that description finally dragged out of WGM of how he reckons summers are “more profitable” than winters for ski resorts is, to use the technical jargon favoured by us beancounting types, complete horsepoo.

I’m sorry, since I hate accountants as an absolute rule, I’m not going to let that go..

So, if you had a client with a winter business, that closed effectively for five months of the year, that decided to undertake a new venture off season, would you not advise a zero based budget, to commence his business plan?
In that budget would you not take into account the reduced fuel, heating & lighting costs, start with minimum hours and part time staff?
Then point out to the shareholders and those necessary to finance your clients that you were using equipment already amortised, without the high cost of temperature effected maintenance, and obvious reduction in other snow related challenges?

No? Just talk of horse poo then, so what are you an accountant for then, some farmer?

Or should I be accusing you of trolling?

Really, what is the matter with you people?

I’m done and gone.

Just a slanging match now 🙄 this thread has no future. Should have stayed closed days ago.

Hows about a nice picture of a badger

This one looks a bit like a doggy.

Was this the geezer in the silver Saab?

bigmountainscotland ever thought of writing a book? 😀

😆 There is a passing resemblance, though the fella I dealt with had more of a “I’ve pure been tae hell and bought a wee slice back wuth me tae share” look about him.

Speaking of badgers, I think this may be relevant:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg[/video]

How much on the road? Should think it will have trouble on emissions when MOT’d. Got to admit I’d have never considered a three wheeler to that picture. Just noticed, it’s got at least six wheels, nice.

I’m sorry, since I hate accountants….

I’m done and gone.

That was easier than I expected!

temperature effected maintenance

snow related challenges

de seasonalisation

equipment already amortised

those of us in the business

Brilliant. More please.

No? Just talk of horse poo then, so what are you an accountant for then, some farmer?

Just more insults.

So… Do you honestly still believe that

most ski resorts make more profit in the summer from MTB’s than in winter from the skiing

As you previously claimed ?

… I’m done and gone.

Oh go on, answer that one question before you flounce off into the sunset.

scroll, scroll, scroll, read 3 words, scroll, scroll, picture of a badger, yeahh winner!