Gisele Pelicot

Can’t see a thread… Maybe one on the women’s forum?

The poor woman, and a brave woman to bring this to the world. An unbelievable story. A great result for her too.

Beyond words how despicable her husband and those men are.

Hopefully more people feel empowered to take action against these abuses between whatever sexes/genders.

Her bravery in waiving her anonymity is incredible. In doing so she has given this horrific case a human victim with a name. That means it is likelier to hit home with people who may only hear stuff in passing. ‘Gisèle Pelicot’ will resonate more easily than ‘Mme X’ or whatever it could have been.

It also shows a defiance of the ‘shame’ that her attackers and husband were probably hoping would silence her. This alone should be making silent victims think about their options and perps who have gotten away with it until now nervous. I’ve heard a lot of interviews where the accepted (by many) view of supposed masculinity in France has been called toxic. This should be the start of a long conversation. Obviously this is a worldwide problem, but that particular point has been made several times with respect to this case.

A remarkable woman.

There’s been a few excellent in depth articles about her, the case and the wider implications on the BBC site over the period of the trial. Incredibly brave thing to do. It takes a monumental act of courage like this to (hopefully) create the groundswell to change laws and society’s attitude. I absolutely agree that the “shame” of sexual assault should lie with the perpetrator and not the victim.

A lot of the talk is about how attitudes to sexual assault and consent in France need to change, but the apparent attraction of the Tates of this world suggest this is not a uniquely French problem. Talking with my own kids (now 18 and 21) as they’ve gone through their teenage years, it’s clear that the message about consent and respect is out there in schools and elsewhere, much better than the sort of “education” I got at their age.

Also a wider issue around the role that the internet had in enabling these men to meet and set up such an awful series of crimes.

I also read that Gisèle Pelicot is suffering the long term effects of four STIs she contracted as a result of these crimes. It is just stomach-turning.

She’s had to sit there for three months listening to cowardly men trying to justify the unjustifiable and wriggle out of the consequences of their actions.

It’s horrific. The inner strength she must have is incomprehensible.

What’s scary to think is if he’d not been caught for the upskirting how much longer would that woman unknowingly endured that very grotesque violation.

And the other woman who almost suffered a similar fate due to the ‘inspiration’ her husband got from the perpetrator.

I truly hope the family can find a way forward to a life with some semblance of normalcy after this.

His DNA connected him to a rape and murder in 1999, as I read it too. But for some reason nothing resulted from that link.

This case should revolutionise policing in France as well as societal attitudes.

I doubt she puts much store in the approval of an old man, but I cant adequately express the depth of my admration for her and the courage she has shown. I hope she is able to find some peace after that betrayal from someone she loved and trusted.

This case should revolutionise policing in France

I admire your optimism. Societal values don’t need to change, what was unacceptable before the case is still unacceptable. The reason the case has drawn so much attention is that it goes against existing societal values so the victim has recieved almost universal support. Sadly only “almost universal”.

Absolutely incredible woman. So strong and brave.

It’s incredibly hard to believe how evil some humans are.

ex-husband gets only 20 years ???

ex-husband gets only 20 years ???

Maximum available sentence for aggravated rape in France

Why do you think a longer sentence would help society, the victim or the husband, gravedigger? Before you answer consider the rights and wrongs of imposing your UK view of things on a foreign society with its own attitudes to imprisonment, rehabilitation, protection of society and the role of the justice system.

I have no words for her husband and the men – hope they rot.

I hope they learn, and change, fossy. Of the other men I hope the court makes a clear distinction in sentencing between those who rapidly admitted, acknowleged the error of their ways and expressed regret to the court and victim, and those who were/are in denial and perhaps need more “time” to reflect on their actions.

Just watched the report on France 2 news, sentencing seems reasonable with the distinctions I was hoping for. Non were aquitted which is a statement in itself. Six will walk free given the way sentences are applied here.

Maximum available sentence for aggravated rape in France

I don’t know how it works in France but in the UK the maximum sentence for rape is life which in reality usually means imprisonment for 15 years and then out on licence for the rest of the offender’s life (I think)

I don’t know if in France the offender is likely to spend the rest of their lives on licence after completing their 20 years, presumably not as the sentence wouldn’t be described as 20 years?

I haven’t followed this story closely as I put in a similar category as unpleasant news stories about children and animals, which I make a point of not following. But what struck me most about the remarkable strength that Gisele Pelicot has exhibited wasn’t her wavering her anonymity, extraordinary as it was, but the fact that she insisted as much as possible to attend the trial and listen to all the horrific details of the case.

2/3 minimum to be served, Ernie. He’ll be 84 at release if he lives that long.

I put a like on morecashthandashes post as it includes what Gisèle Pelicot herself hoped for:

I absolutely agree that the “shame” of sexual assault should lie with the perpetrator and not the victim.

que la honte change de camp.

Not sure why fenderextender’s contribution gets so many likes (13 so far),  whereas morecashthandashe’s post that hits the main point only gets 4 (3 without mine), though I can make an educated guess based on other contributions. My posts get no likes which also fits with the attitudes in other contributions.

It’s incredibly hard to believe how evil some humans are.

I read a story yesterday about some of the Kenyan employees of an Internet outsourcer who were employed as Facebook moderators. Some of the thing described beggar belief and made me feel nauseous. Properly nauseous.

Some people revel on how evil they are. They pose a horrendous debating society question – can one justify punishing an utterly evil human in an utterly evil way? What is society’s role – balancing injustice (whatever the implication) or condemning violence altogether?

One for the philosophers. And the judiciary. And absolutely not the politicians.

They pose a horrendous debating society question – can one justify punishing an utterly evil human in an utterly evil way?

Good god. Whatever happened to the notions of protecting society, compensating and giving victims justice, and dealing humanely with perpetrators with the objective of reforming/rehabilitating so they are once again able to take a place in society.

Good god. Whatever happened to the notions of protecting society, compensating and giving victims justice, and dealing humanely with perpetrators with the objective of reforming/rehabilitating so they are once again able to take a place in society.

I was only suggesting it as a philosophical point!

Are some crimes so irredeemable that it is actually an insult to society itself that the perpetrator is allowed to take a place in that society?

Would you have sought to rehabilitate someone like Eichmann?

The whole thing is utterly awful. I believe that he was inspired by others doing similarly whom he was in contact with online. The heinousness of his crimes are so terrible that I thought could only be unique but it seems they are not. That really scares me.

Would you have sought to rehabilitate someone like Eichmann?

No. but I woudln’t have had him tortured every day either. A justice system should be justice not revenge.

Justice systems have a rising scale. 147 femicides in the UK and 122 in France in 2021 the last year I could find comparable numbers for. The French system has 30 years to life as maximum for that, there might be some people amongst those killers you never want to let out as they are too high a risk to society. In this case the husband got the maximum sentence of 20 years which reflects the serious and repetetive nature of the crimes in this case. Sarkozy is wondering around with a bracelet which seems reasonable too as I don’t think paying for a prison cell would make me any safer or him any less likely to reoffend.

The heinousness of his crimes are so terrible that I thought could only be unique but it seems they are not. That really scares me.

I think the scariest thing about this case is the “Mr Everyman” who participated. One evil individual is unfortunately not that unusual but it is the fact that so many very “average” men were willing to go along with it all. They seemed to have all the morality of dogs, not humans.

A justice system should be justice not revenge.

Even ignoring the circular argument that a justice system is for justice, there is a clear argument that it is partially for revenge.

A justice system has several purposes,  hopefully including reducing the chance that somebody will re-offend, which is good for society.  But it is also there to stop people taking the law into their own hands: if there is no functioning justice system then vigilantism, revenge and attacks vendettas can take its place. In a society where a justice system can, among other things, give a victim a sense there has been some form of vengeance on their behalf it suppresses the desire to do it yourself – which is also good for society.

I’ve always believed that the penalty system should (in order of priority):

1. Protect society by taking offenders away from society – basic public protection.

2. Punish. Both as a deterrent to the individual to reoffend and to others who might commit similar crimes AND so the rest of society can be satisfied that some form of collective redress has been had.

3. Rehabilitate, but with the overriding principle that any rehabilitation is primarily done for the benefit of society itself, in conjunction with the individual.

Once you commit a serious criminal offence you relinquish a certain amount of control over your destiny.

give a victim a sense there has been some form of vengeance on their behalf it suppresses the desire to do it yourself

You need to listen to some of the interviews with Gisèle Pelicot. Fortunately she won’t be reading this thread because it’s clear that many of you haven’t understood why she went public and why she has had such popular support. She isn’t seeking revenge, she just doesn’t want to have to feel ashamed. She wanted justice and has obtained it, now we all have to fulfil her other wish that the shame changes sides. That victims of rape shouldn’t feel shamed/ashamed. She wants to change attitudes to women. Tate got mentioned above, I’ll add Jordan Peterson – check out the threads on here and note the number of fanbois 5 years or so ago. And the next time you make a post with “Louise” in the text consider that you might be a part of the problem too.

Some attitudes on here aren’t great. Nickc was a lonely voice on the original Jordan P thread – good man Nick – but was thankfully joined by others on later ones. STW has come a long way from prehack and CFH’s post hack attempts at the revival of sexist threads were curtailed but there are still undercurrents.

So listen to what Gisèle Pelicot herself has to say and take heed of that. No need for pitchforks.

And yes, it is a good job I’m neither a lawyer nor a judge.

I’m too prone to stress, personalising issues and objectivity on extreme issues.

Just before anyone says it.

In the end, bringing it back on topic to an extent, I hope Mme Pelicot lives the rest of her life on her own terms no matter what. If she chooses to be a firebrand campaigner, I hope it brings her some peace. If she wants to make the point then live her life in privacy, I hope it brings her the same peace.

No one should have any expectations of her.

Always amazes me that even in a thread where there is a clear and broad consensus of agreement, somehow there is still a disagreement.

Bravo.

Fortunately she won’t be reading this thread because it’s clear that many of you haven’t understood why she went public and why she has had such popular support. She isn’t seeking revenge, she just doesn’t want to have to feel ashamed. She wanted justice and has obtained it, now we all have to fulfil her other wish that the shame changes sides. That victims of rape shouldn’t feel shamed/ashamed. She wants to change attitudes to women. Tate got mentioned above, I’ll add Jordan Peterson – check out the threads on here and note the number of fanbois 5 years or so ago.

I’ve not followed the fine details of the case, only the information that has been on BBC news, but I’m incredibly proud of Mme Pelicot and her bravery in persuing the case against her husband and the men he encouraged to assault her for his own twisted pleasure. The very definition of grace under pressure!

One thing appalled me during the BBC news report on the sentencing earlier today, and that was the behaviour of a defence lawyer using foul language against people who were there in support of Mme Pelicot; that man should be struck off, and never allowed to practice law ever again. Repulsive behaviour, very much aligning with the likes of Tate, may he live out his life in obscurity and penury.

It saddens me that a post with:

I’ve heard a lot of interviews where the accepted (by many) view of supposed masculinity in France has been called toxic. This should be the start of a long conversation.

gets the most likes (17) whilst a post stating what Gisèle Pelicot fought for and denouncing the fact it’s an international issue gets half that.

A thread denouncing sexism with an anti-French flavour bordering on racism.

Time for another break from this…

A thread denouncing sexism with an anti-French flavour bordering on racism.

Time for another break from this…

The facepalm, the facepalm.

If you construed what I said like you seem to have, I agree that it is time for a break.

In at least two interviews on this case, the French interviewee brought up this sort of laugh it off stereotype of the randy old Frenchman with his mistresses and chasing the girls at his age etc. That’s why I mentioned what seemed to be a particularly unique angle. That is all.

Do I really need to state my awareness of the unacceptable treatment of women across the world? If I do, will I need to provide specific examples to prove it? If, in doing so, I mention two or three specific examples, will you call me racist because I picked those particular ones?

Either you have a loss of control of yourself on this thread – in which case you should definitely take a break. Or you are trying to get a rise out of me – which would be very inappropriate.

I too am taking a break from this thread. To be honest, squabbling over this case right now is not the right thing to do.

Don’t usually comment much on here, but as I live about 10km from Mazan…

I was riding with a different group about a month ago, mostly local artisans and it was just after someone had posted a list of the 50 names identified from the videos. Between them they knew 4 of the men. I think what shocked the group as a whole was how they were “normal” guys, some family men etc. etc.

Not really sure where I’m going with this apart from the fact that I suspect that there’s a lot more of this sort of thing going on (not just in France obviously) that we know.

and to my mind the biggest point she has made was pushing the “shame” back to where it should be and off the victim.

Sven.

A truly remarkable woman who has handled herself with amazing dignity. I have endless respect for her courage in what she has done.

Mazan?  I stayed there once – the hotel was once the Marquis de Sade’s summer home.

What a strong woman, I have nothing but respect for what she has done. If that was me I don’t know if I could look each of the perpetrators in the eye like she did in court. Like others have said I would like this to change people’s attitude towards rape but I know in reality there are some out there who’s minds will not change. Some real evil out there

SHAME CHANGES SIDES

I cannot explain my admiration for Mme Pelicot as eloquently as some above, so won’t add any further.  

What has and continues to shock me is that the 51 found guilty all lived within 30miles of the victim.  And this is not withing a heavily populated city.  30men still un identified.  In this community how many wives, sons, daughters, parents etc, will be looking at men within the community and asking themselves; are they one of the 30?  What does this say about far modern society still has to go regarding sexual violence.

Time for another break from this…

Please do. Your ability to misread, take offence and generally try and stir the pot whilst picking on people is seriously tiresome.

What an utterly amazing lady.

She will now have to serve her own ‘life sentence’ from the health problems directly linked to being repeatedly raped, abused and drugged .

Sadly some men are appealing, so she may have to go through this again in court. What strength her (and apparently other female members of her family) must have.

I heard that some of those convicted have lodged appeals. I’m very perplexed about what grounds they feel they have. It’s all on video for goodness sakes. Their arrogance is absolutely astonishing.