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Michael Vandeman posted on that story.
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Oh god I just read the comments... that's my faith in the human race destroyed for the day...
I don't understand why so many people hurt themselves at Hully Gully :S
cos they can't ride and they don't control their speed...
waswas
who is he? if it's who i think it is how has he posted on the lancashire telegraph?
steve
it's poor riding, i have seen people chciken out of riding down the stone steps on homebaked but then hurtle down hully gully. as with every sport, they think because they jumped over a ramp when they were 24 means they can still do it when they get back on a bike at 40.
Michael Vandeman posted on that story.
😯 is he still around?! 😯 He was peddling his anti-bike stuff 15 years ago and the US-biased (as it was moreso then) net took him seriously, IIRC he was a member of the Sierra Club and they were worried he could really influence anti-biking attitudes.
What happens if you say his name 3 times?
History would suggest he's failed! The internet is like a time warp, I had a nostalgic look at the Usenet bike sites recently and Jobst Brandt is still active there. Didnt see Keith Bontrager or Gary Helfrich posting but it might have been nice riding weather.
philfive - anti-mtb 'campaigner' who resorted to attacking cyclists when all else failed;
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[url= http://www.berkeleyside.com/tag/michael-j-vandeman/ ]http://www.berkeleyside.com/tag/michael-j-vandeman/[/url]
The comments truly are depressing.
I don't get why people hate mountain bikers/cyclists so much. it is very strange to hate people so much for no real reason.
wwas, Ive just registered on the site and cross-posted your link in the reply thread so "ignorant" readers can make a balanced judgement.
But its been settled in US federal court, how dare Lancashire ignore the might and authority of the Federal Court on such matters...
🙄
OUTRAGE!!
He didn't look to have head injuries to me.
As for his current condition is unknown don't bother trying to find out while you're busy hammering the nails into Gisburn's coffin will you.
I bet if there was a breakdown of funding to such services then the outraged might find we (as mtb'ers) contribute a decent amount to mountain rescue/air ambulance services.
themink FTW in the comments section.
Wonder how many small animals I've killed while out breaking the world?!
lol this paper covers Accrington, Burnley and blackburn areas. balanced judgement isn't something they normally do 😀
wwaswas - Member
[whispers]M*** V**** posted on that story.
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shudders at that name
even Lord Voldemorts name should be said allowed more than MVs
a name I had hoped had dissapeared but sadly no, it lives
Right-wing tabloids popular with angry (ignorant?) members of the middle-aged & older generations spout a hatred of cyclists (amongst many other 'minority' groups). Angry motorists stuck in traffic don't like cyclists ...especially if they ride through red lights.
Stevelol - MemberI don't understand why so many people hurt themselves at Hully Gully :S
A lot of the people I see riding mtbs are not very good riders, I presumably don't see the faster/more skilled ones ahead of me ....but I have to say that my fairly sociable, weekend-warrior-Dads riding chums and I are rarely overtaken, up or downhill, when we ride, trail centres or otherwise.
"Trail centres" are a double-edged sword, but are a good thing on the whole. Let's hope that the council don't read this newspaper.
ps. I'm not claiming to a riding god, I once crashed, broke my ribs and was rescued by a helicopter 🙂
Phil O’Brien, team leader of BPMR, said: “A lot of work is being done promoting the forest as an extreme mountain biking destination,....
extreme? Not so sure about that. Lazy journalism pandering to narrow minded bigots. As some of the comments on that link say:
1. No mention of benifits to local economy and public in general.
2. Lets charge sports people for treating injuries when they are, in part, keeping themsleves fit by staying active. Fine for the NHS to look after drunks bottling each other though.
Lazy journalism pandering to narrow minded bigots
Exactly.
The 'extreme' label is laughable, but does make something as easy as riding a bike sound more 'gnarly' to the masses, Dude ...Or irresponsible, depending upon your viewpoint.
How many bicyclists have been hit/knocked off by cars on the roads of that newspaper's Lancashire catchment area over the same period?
I think there is definately a very interesting academic piece of work that could be done around injuries at Trail Centres v Injuries on natural trails. The detailed would all be in the stats. I'm convinced that people approach trail type very differently.
Personally I think its a mixture of:
* Middle aged men riding bikes that are capable of more than they are.
* Trail centres are theme parks and people get an adrenaline high, and end up riding stuff they wouldnt normally consider.
* Trail centres have features you dont ride else where... I've never seen another Hully Gully any where (natural) so people have no clue how to ride it.
As to the cost of the NHS, to be fair Mrs FD (orthopaedic surgeon) does see more mtb injuries than she did 5 years ago, but this still doesn't come close to the numbers of car accidents or drug/alcohol related injuries.
If like at Gisburn access means that the Air Ambulance & Mountain Rescue need to be used, then surely this cost should be built in to the parking fees?
There are different debates going on here, but I'd prefer that the general population took part in physical activity, even if there is a relatively small risk of injury.
On second thoughts, I'd actually prefer that they continue to travel, en masse, to the Trafford Centre at weekends.
As you were.
If they hadn't taken up cycling, how many of the riders injured at Gisburn would end up having a coronary or getting an obesity-related disease and becoming a long-term burden on the NHS?
I don't get why people hate mountain bikers/cyclists so much. it is very strange to hate people so much for no real reason.
They don't.... Aprox 3 people who posted on that story perhaps do.. That's not 'people'.
As for MV.. When he dies, I wonder if the last thought he has will be on how he has achieved absolutely nothing as far as his aim to obliterate mountain biking is concerned. He is now such a cliche that his popping up with his cut and pasted remarks has now become pretty much self defeating in terms of his goals.
With the greatest of respect mark I think you are being somewhat condescending there.
I rode there recently.Two laps of the big course on a horrible day. Loved it, especially the rocky nature of the climbs. Hully Gully seemed tame, it was the bit after that with the rooty drop offs that had me walking as I could not see how deep the puddles were,and I was very much on my own that day...
"Hully Gully seemed tame"
Depends how you ride it, I imagine the people injuring themselves are carrying a bit of speed down one side, fly up the other and dont realise how quickly their momentum disappaears, at which point your on a near vertical wall and fall 10ft or so in a heap of bike and bones mess 😯
Imagine no momentum at his point, or a little further on... oops
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Be interesting to know what the specifics of the accidents are,as this may prevent further injuries and possibly lead to adjustments to the circuit to make it safer for all. These are after all bike centres and while I am all for a take care of yourself mentally, we have to be realistic about the people that use these,and indeed the negative press being generated here for the sport as a whole.
Rode Hully Gully this morning, and I can see how it might catch a few unawares at the moment. There's a couple of sections which have chopped up a bit over the winter, and coupled with some skittery stuff here and there because of the lovely dry weather, being overenthusiastic with the speed and a bit out of shape could get you into all sorts of bother.
Or it might just be that when you blow it there the potential consequences are worse.
Hope the fella who decked it is recovering well.
I know some of the jumps have been taking a few people out...
I know some of the jumps have been taking a few people out...
This is because almost all trail center jumps are badly built. As in too short for the transition so over jumping is easy. It also means that people who 'learn' to jump at trail centers don't learn proper technique. The ones at gisburn are some of these.
FunkyDunc,
Either those trees are growing with a 10 degree tilt or the camera ain't level!
Hully Gully is a great novelty feature. I think the new swoopy section will be similarly good too once it's bedded in a bit more.
Keep on building 'em!
I'd rather overjump than underjump!
they think because they jumped over a ramp when they were 24 means they can still do it when they get back on a bike at 40.
Although at the moment an XC hardtail with an 80mm XC race fork isn't going to ride the same as the hardcore hardtails with freeride class 130mm forks I used to run.
Guy that binned it on Saturday did it on the very last left hander before the old stone half fallen down buildings.
It's not much to look at. Little bermed corner but a little hollow in the middle of it that you've got to coast the front wheel over. Not sure exactly what he did but that's where he did it.
His mate said he'd had the exact same pelvis injuries in the Pyrenees. Been there, busted up, managing the pain, everyone staring. Not good.
I loved the guy who said that anyone who rides a bike in a public place should be insured - apart from the insane drivel spouted by MV that gave me a laugh for the afternoon.
My current favourite is the guy who claims to have taken public liability insurance for his entire family, just in case...
Where do you even get that?
[i]"I would also like to see the disabled scooters forced into taking out insurance to protect the rest of the public against injury and loss of earnings."[/i]
Ah...fair warms the cockles 
I know some of the jumps have been taking a few people out...
Which jumps? There are only jumps on the Hope line or the DH tracks aren't there?
Oh he came back... I'm actually beginning to like this guy.
accyphil says...
12:05pm Wed 30 May 12Vanderman, go back to America you tit.
Top point! 🙂
Blimey I thought STW was an argument hotspot
There's a bit of an agenda from a certain individual behind this.
What obviously wasn't well reported was all the behind the scenes work and thought put into the trails and their ongoing maintenance and upgrades. The FC team put large amounts of time into trial reapirs and the volunteers are planning on under taking repairs and upgrades on existing trails once the current section we are working on has been completed. The whole network is under constant review and as noted above the Hope Line was already being discussed before this artcile came out.
Accidents happen all over the forest, admittedly Hully Gully and the Hope Line seem to be hot spots. It's a shame so many people ride around the qualifier at the top of Hully Gully because it's too difficult (same numpties that ride down the mud bank rather than the staircase at the end of Homebaked). One that I saw the aftermath of happened on a fire road, guy took the corner too fast and got gravel rash as a result.
The air ambulance is usually overkill, the fire road network in the forest is pretty good and you're rarely more than 150m from it. Admittedly mountain rescue are often needed to help stretcher people out as the ambulance crews don't have the kit.
they think because they jumped over a ramp when they were 24 means they can still do it when they get back on a bike at 40.
I jumped over a ramp when I was 24.
And when I was 8.
And I can still do it now I'm 40
Air ambulance costs pretty much the same if its flying as if its not. It's the cost of having it all which is big. Often they will send it if it is beneficial and there is nothing more pressing for which it is needed. It may not be essential.
As someone involved in another FE mtb site +1 to stumpyjon, its just physically impossible to be on site and not look with an eye to issue and improvement each and every-time, like wise it's equally impossible to control how people ride.
Air ambulance costs pretty much the same if its flying as if its not. It's the cost of having it all which is big. Often they will send it if it is beneficial and there is nothing more pressing for which it is needed. It may not be essential.
Not strictly true. The fuel costs are unbelievable and the service requirements are based on number of take offs and landings and hours in the air, but you're right in that they will always try to attend even in a just in case capacity.
It would be a good investment for all of us to support our local air ambulance service in whatever way we can.
If like at Gisburn access means that the Air Ambulance & Mountain Rescue need to be used, then surely this cost should be built in to the parking fees?
It would be a good investment for all of us to support our local air ambulance service in whatever way we can.
+lots
I would happily pay additional on a parking ticket if it was guaranteed to go direct to the local air ambulance
I already support my local one but I ride all over the country as I'm sure many of us do, I can't support every area with monthly direct debits this or something similar would be a good way to raise more funds
Just read and commented on it, that mjvende is a bit of an idiot and has wound me up no end! Cock, anyone would think he was being a troll!
It's a shame that, despite the efforts of the people involved, there will always be (vocal) people who like to moan/complain. What is the basis of the "individual's" complaint?
The mountain biking trails at Gisburn are a great facility and I've really enjoyed riding there when I've been. I think they have a positive impact on the area. It's just a shame that I don't live a bit nearer.
I know that people are all different and have different abilities and attitudes, but the point about people riding around the "qualifier" is a good one. I had to think hard to remember what it actually was, but if somebody can't ride that, then they should really think twice about riding down the gully.
Likewise, "The staircase" on Home-Baked didn't particularly stick in my memory (I've just found it on Youtube) although I do enjoy that section, but more for the turns.
Just read and commented on it, that mjvende is a bit of an idiot and has wound me up no end! Cock, anyone would think he was being a troll!
Having never encountered him before that was what I thought too... A little research reveals he was 100% serious. Part of me thinks the UK needs their own MJVande, there's nothing for an argument like bat-shit insane, foaming at the mouth, lunatic rabid opposition.
Hi Mike,Mark Alker here. Publisher at Singletrack mountain bike magazine. Gisburn Forest is reasonably local to us here in West Yorkshire. I've ridden there pretty much all my life having grown up in the area. Our address here is Lockside Mill in Todmorden. Our phone number is 01706 813344. Give me a call if you like.
Is that wise.........
I ride gisburn all the time and think it's great. Far more chance of hurting yourself on many of the natural, unmaintained trails round here (Mastiles Lane anyone?). If you ride above you're ability you're going to hurt yourself where ever you are. Same can be said for pretty much any other active sport.
All you need to know about MJV (sorry for the cached link, the original website seems to be down):
And the MJV FAQ:
http://evergreenmtb.org/php/show_page.php?page_id=32
My current favourite is the guy who claims to have taken public liability insurance for his entire family, just in case...Where do you even get that?
Got home/house insurance? It's usualy included.
Air ambulance costs pretty much the same if its flying as if its not. It's the cost of having it all which is big. Often they will send it if it is beneficial and there is nothing more pressing for which it is needed. It may not be essential.
I'm sure I saw a 'fact' somewhere that said it cost £400 to keep a private helicopter in the air for an hour (it was some rich guy in cheshire flying to medowhall justifying that his working time was billed at >£400/hour so it was actualy cheeper than driving and getting stuck in trafic), so I'd imagine one of those big ambulance/coastguard helicopters is a bit more, plus the cost of pilots and doctors permenantly on standby has to be divided by the number of flights?
there are now 97 comments on this story on the news site 😀
Does seem Mike has gone away though... that's a shame. It will leave a gap in my life 😀 . But also pleasing, is there a prize we can claim for having worn him down?
He is probably over the atlantic as we speak, he will be hiding in Gisburn forest with a handsaw just waiting for the next mountain biker 😀
topeffort very funny
He is a proper mentalist QED yah liars
here i have some proof
www. junkard stw says he is wrong on his webapge.com
😀
UnkleH, as was said on the site, your posts have made my day! I think I might love you too.
Awwwww. I confess I was rather delighted to discover the existence Mike. I did a lot of research and I feel now like I've known him all my life. Mainly cos he has been pasting the same body of text for at least 6 years... probably more...
One of the favourite responces I found was to this one from 2010, sent unsolicited to a B&B in Canada.
http://www.lynnvalleybedandbreakfast.com/blog/86-this-arrived-today-and-my-reply/
#hugs
Unk.
We are sorry to hear of your alleged recent arrest for assault with a deadly weapon, hitting a mountain biker with a handsaw was a little extreme, perhaps you should have used something with less teeth, like a raccoon or a bear - something animate at least.
that is utter class that reply
You would think he was bored by now as it is all cut and paste and he obviously takes the time to reply when people respond.
You would think he was bored by now as it is all cut and paste and he obviously takes the time to reply when people respond.
The guy must be 70 by now - can imagine him sitting there at his computer, foaming and frothing at the mouth as he googles for any MTB related story and then Ctrl - V his response.
Happy that he's put the world to rights he'll then wander off to his Wal-mart ready meal for one, maybe watch some TV then fall asleep alone, dreaming of a world without mountain bikers.
He's popped up on here once or twice before as well in the pre-hack days but congratulations to everyone on that newspaper comments page - that's a masterclass in how to divert it from being a predictable rant from local nimbys about road tax and insurance (road tax - on an off-road trail??) and turn it into something that was genuinely funny.
BTW, anyone who thinks Michael J Vanderman is an amusingly eccentric chap rather than a hate filled nutjob might want to read the running list of MTB accidents, incidents and fatalities he posts on usenet here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ca.environment
He also comments on each of them so for Alex Kaiser's tragic death (which obviously was at an MTB event but not actually to do with riding), he notes "Evolution in action".
I saw Mark Alker reach out to him on the Gisburn article but I think the best thing is to let him fester rather than give him any room to air his views.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ca.environment
wow... yeah that's like when they find the hidden room in the serial killer's house and there's just photos and book with strands of hair in it...
He really is an unpleasant man. And alone it seems. No supporting posts.
Stumpjon, are there any plans to make the qualifier on the Gully less avoidable and a bit more gnarly? e.g. by careful placement of large rocks on either side to stop people riding around it. It may stop absolute novices riding down and injuring themselves. The qualifier at Dalbeatie works well, but something on that scale is probably a bit of overkill as I've seen plenty of experienced riders giving that a wide berth.
