Gaza

If what is meant by ‘support it to exist’ a colonial expansionsist apartheid state that systematically commits ethnic cleansing and genocide then no. If it means a democratic secular single state with equal rights for all then yes. ‘Two state’ bantustans are not a solution as shown by RSA.

Full interview below

An interesting interview here with Israeli journalist Gideon Levy who claims that far from providing the opportunity for some kind of peace Yahya Sinwar’s death is likely to have the complete opposite effect and increase Netanyahu’s commitment to war.

It is hard to deny that this development is likely to have both  boosted Netanyahu’s approval ratings and also emboldened him to continue with the military option.

It is hard to deny that this development is likely to have both  boosted Netanyahu’s approval ratings and also emboldened him to continue with the military option.

That can’t be right – the Israelis love peace, and Netanyahu has only sneaked into power due to some psephological anomaly.

What is Israel going to do about the tens of thousands of teenage boys who will soon turn into fighters after they’ve watched their families being slaughtered and made homeless? Actually don’t answer that, I think we know what Israel is going to do with them.

There were a few in Northern Ireland who wanted their kids to carry on throwing rocks and grow up to bomb shopping centres after the peace process there.  Thankfully teenage boys seen pretty good at working out for themselves that they’d rather have a job and a girlfriend then carry on their grandparents bitter disputes.

The decades long struggle of the Palestinian people, their expulsion from homes and lands, their subjugation under an apartheid regime, and their regular mass slaughter, is hardly comparable to the Troubles in NI.

How many people from Northern Ireland have been condemned to live generation after generation in refugee camps?

The decades long struggle of the Palestinian people, their expulsion from homes and lands, their subjugation under an apartheid regime, and their regular mass slaughter, is hardly comparable to the Troubles in NI.

That’s your view, and a warped one sided view of the history. Remember the teenage boys of Palestine also remember being told half their school was out of bounds due to Hamas fighters, and they’ve seen the doctors looking the other way in hospitals as the Al Qussam brigade grabbed water.  They remember their parents being as scared of Hamas as Israel’s strikes on Hamas, worrying that their sons would be taken into the brigades  and their daughters for worse.

Appreciate you’re into the struggle rather than peace but I’ve a more optimistic view of humanity!

That’s your view, and a warped one sided view of the history.

No it is a fact. Palestinians have been expelled from their homes and lands, no one disputes that, how many people in Northern Ireland have been expelled from their homes?

Israel is an apartheid regime:

“Israeli apartheid is a system of institutionalized segregation and discrimination in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories and to a lesser extent in Israel. This system is characterized by near-total physical separation between the Palestinian and the Israeli settler population of the West Bank, as well as the judicial separation that governs both communities, which discriminates against the Palestinians in a wide range of ways. Israel also discriminates against Palestinian refugees in the diaspora and against its own Palestinian citizens”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid

How does that compare with Northern Ireland?

Palestinians are regularly slaughtered by their thousands, that is a fact, how does that compare to Northern Ireland where approximately two thousand civilians died in over 40 years?

There are approximately 7 million Palestinian refugees, 1.5 million living in refugee camps, that is a fact, how does that compare to refugees from Northern Ireland?

There were a lot of injustices in NI which fueled the Troubles, and the appalling and senseless violence, but it is absurd to compare it to Palestine.

Edit: Btw since you brought up Northern Ireland this article explains why the Irish are among the most pro-palestinian people in the world, and certainly in Europe…. not many European countries have experienced colonialism in recent times.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/29/middleeast/why-ireland-is-the-most-pro-palestinian-nation-in-europe-mime-intl/index.html

That’s your view Ernie, but as noted above, it’s a minority one, and most western democracies fully support both Israel’s right to exist and its right to self defence.

most western democracies fully support both Israel’s right to exist and its right to self defence.

Sorry you have suddenly completely changed the issue being discussed.

We were discussing your comparison between Palestine and Northern Ireland. I pointed out that it was absurd to make such a comparison and listed some glaring and obvious differences, all based on actual facts.

Which points are you disputing……. Palestinians haven’t been driven from their homes? There aren’t millions of Palestinian refugees? Israel doesn’t operate a system of institutionalized segregation and discrimination? Palestinians are not regularly slaughtered in their thousands? What claims have I made which  you consider are not true?

Nah…..I’m not going to bother refuting such a warped sense of reality

Actually, your comparison to NI is a minority opinion. Can you answer any of the points he makes?

He’s took his time

William Dalrymple

I have always resisted calling the Israeli assault on the Palestinians of Gaza a genocide. But seeing the wanton cruelty, inhumanity and sheer evil displayed in this clip against innocent civilians its now increasingly difficult to call it anything else.

https://x.com/dalrymplewill/status/1847356045422973163?s=12&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg

Palestine: International law obliges Israel to end occupation, says rights panel

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1155861

“States must not render aid or assistance in maintaining the unlawful occupation, which includes financial, military and political aid or support”

It is interesting that the United Nations has defined “political support” for Israel’s unlawful occupation of Palestine illegal under international law.

Presumably “political support” includes supporting the action that Israel takes against Palestine resistance in illegally occupied territories.

I wonder how much the UK courts can be used to implement international law?

I wonder how much the UK courts can be used to implement international law?

Aah, Ernie, Ernie, so naive :-). Your faith in institutions always reminds me of Stalin’s response to the Pope’s criticism of his treatment of Catholics. “How many divisions does the Pope have?”

What do you know of my faith in “institutions”?

I have little doubt that the 30 arms export licences for Israel which David Lammy announced would not be permitted had very little to do with any moral considerations and everything to do with legal considerations.

The fact that so few export licences were cancelled gives every indication that it was considered the bare minimum to comply with UK law.

Otherwise why do you think that David Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel and someone who receives funding from Israeli backers, stopped 30 arms export licences? Because he was morally concerned? How naive are you?!?

The fact that so few export licences were cancelled gives every indication that it was considered the bare minimum to comply with UK law.

Or maybe it’s because if we cancelled them all we couldn’t get the F35 aircraft that the RAF and RN use jointly and have more on order

According to the Campaign Against Arms Trade the UK produces 15% of an F35. What’s the point of a UK-produced F35 ejector seat if we can’t get the other twelthty billion parts that surround it because final assembly in the US has stopped?

Or maybe it’s because if we cancelled them all

My question was why were 30 export licences cancelled? Or in other words why were “any” arms export licences to Israel cancelled?

The most likely explanation imo was that the UK government received legal advice that they should do so.

I really struggle to believe that it had anything to do with any moral concerns about UK arms being used by the Israelis in illegally occupied territories.

What do you know of my faith in “institutions”?

Steady on, keep your knickers on. My comment was light hearted. But since you ask you frequently mention UN declarations, international law rulings and the like, despite the blindingly obvious evidence that they mean nothing to the psychopaths in Israel.

My question was why were 30 export licences cancelled? Or in other words why were “any” arms export licences to Israel cancelled?

A sop to the more principled members of the Labour Party, knowing full well that it will have the square root of bugger all impact.

A sop to the more principled members of the Labour Party

Oh how naive you are! You actually genuinely believe that Starmer and Lammy give a monkeys about “the more principled members of the Labour Party”?!?

And far from placating those in the Labour Party who are appalled by the British arms industry being used to slaughter Palestinians there is every indication that all it has done is increased the demand for a full arms ban.

Once you claim that you are denying 30 arms export licences because of moral considerations it becomes much harder to justify the other 320 arms export licences that have been granted to Israel.

The more you think about it the more it should become apparent that the primary reason was legal considerations. It is an undisputed fact that the current and previous UK governments received legal advice which clearly stated the limitations of arms exports to Israel.

It is interesting that the United Nations has defined “political support” for Israel’s unlawful occupation of Palestine illegal under international law.

And what have the UN done since the beginning, lots of tough words, no action, you talk as if the UN and UNHCR have any power in this scenario, when reality is the opposite of that.

My question was why were 30 export licences cancelled? Or in other words why were “any” arms export licences to Israel cancelled?

It was stated that these were cancelled as they could be used in an offensive way, the rest were defensive or infrastructure or similar, the UK produce next to nothing these days, we do not own bomb or missile making facilities, that’s done in France, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Germany and so on, the US, Germany and Italy provide pretty much all the imports of offensive weapons, the licenses we suspended, well they can get the same or similar from other countries anyway, it was basically just a political statement to suspend them, all the likes of Thales, or whoever builds those components in the UK will do is just send them to their European manufacturers, it’s all build to print these days anyway, same with F35

you talk as if the UN and UNHCR have any power in this scenario

I talk as someone who is aware that the UN and its condemnation of any illegal behaviour can have a profound effect on global public opinion, which in turn puts added pressure on national governments.

It is an awareness which is shared with people like Netanyahu who is outspoken in his criticism of the United Nations, publicly denouncing it for allegedly being the mouthpiece of Hamas to being anti-semitic and racist.

There is a reason why Netanyahu despises the United Nations so intensely, and it isn’t because he sees it as an inconsequential organisation. Obviously.

I talk as someone who is aware that the UN and its condemnation of any illegal behaviour can have a profound effect on global public opinion, which in turn puts added pressure on national governments.

Well Netanyahu responded to Biden’s requests by (essentially) telling him to go f himself, so I don’t see the PM of Barbados having much influence on the orgy of murder and destruction.

Ernielynch : why the attack dog mode on responses posted?, DrJ above being one

Calm down, its just a forum and I don’t wish this thread to be closed

I am quite calm thanks somafunk. Despite being aware of the limitations of the UN I am not dismissive of the very important role it has to play.

Being dismissive of the UN simply plays into the hands of Netanyahu and his far-right government imo.

If DrJ wants to express distain for the role of the UN, as he regularly does, then that is obviously his prerogative. And I am entitled to suggest a different opinion which recognises the vital role the UN has to play – both in putting pressure on national governments and helping to influence global public opinion.

Being dismissive of the UN simply plays into the hands of Netanyahu and his far-right government imo.

If DrJ wants to express distain for the role of the UN, as he regularly does, then that is obviously his prerogative. And I am entitled to suggest a different opinion which recognises the vital role the UN has to play – both in putting pressure on national governments and helping to influence global public opinion.

I’m not sure that decision makers in Israel are checking in on STW before launching the next bombing mission, so i feel safe in expressing my opinion here. As for the UN, I am not disdainful. I appreciate that they do the very best they can, and via UNRWA etc they have helped enormously. However, global public opinion doesn’t butter any parsnips in Tel Aviv, and national governments are powerless to overcome the US veto, so the end product of speeches and votes and declarations is precisely zilch.

As above, when the UN have the big countries on their side, they can do good, but this scenario has shown they have no ability to do anything when overruled by the US.

As for the US starting to back off Israel, why do you think Israel are bringing Iran into it, they know the second that Iran participate in any way, the US and others are supporting Israel even more.

I’m not sure that decision makers in Israel are checking in on STW

I think you’ll find pro-israel on many forums and social media trying to press their point of view.Same with Russia on you tube vid comments

Recent signing on here, full member and only a single post since joining pushing Israel as the one thats hard done by.

Odd first post by anyone, not even an introduction or something about bikes. Straight into politics. Something we’ve seen before, though usually on free membership.

Normally I when i hear something posted that is perhaps against the general consensus of the thread look to see if a free member, and if full membership usually go no further.

Comparisons with Northern Ireland are bollocks.

It’s like comparing having your shed broken into and some stuff nicked with having your house razed to the ground, your older relatives shot out front, your kids given a kicking and taken into ‘care’ and being forced to live in a tent indefinitely.

Sure us English have a long history of being bastards in Ireland, but it us child’s play compared to Israel’s actions with regards to Palestinians.

so i feel safe in expressing my opinion here.

Of course you are, and I am glad that you do. It would not be much of a forum debate if everyone expressed the same opinions.

As for the role of the United Nations I can only reiterate how hugely important it is imo with regards to Palestine. It is the only body which in the current situation can put pressure on both Israel and those governments which support it.

Yes it lacks teeth and Israel ignores it and the United States uses its vetoes to shield it, but it can still put enormous pressure on both Israel and the United States.

It is the vehicle where Israel’s war crimes and crimes against humanity are regularly discussed and publicly denounced. Which is hugely damaging for a country which understands the importance of, and invests so much into, hasbara.

Israel is not a self-sustaining country, it relies totally on foreign governments for its very existence, and in turn these foreign governments rely on the support of their voters.

It would be great if there was a more effective way to put pressure on Israel other than via the United Nations, however sadly the UN is the only real instrument at our disposal, along with putting constant pressures on national governments.

national governments are powerless to overcome the US veto

Not really. The United States despises political isolation, which is why it forms grand international coalitions when it decides to attack a country, despite not really needing to in military terms. Having close allies breaking ranks hurts the United States and it undermines its perceived moral authority. US global dominance is not solely reliant on its military strength.

A hypothetical scenario, for your consideration.

Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that Israelis are not psychopathc lunatics, but ordinary people who know right from wrong, but who have been misled by a torrent of evil propaganda, and tricked into participating in a blood-soaked orgy of murder and destruction of the most heinous kind. Suppose that this comes to an end, and as their pants start to dry, they realise that they have done something terrible, something monumental, something that will live forever in history. Suppose that in their remorse (yes, I know, improbable) they feel the need to make amends, and agree at last to the creation of a free Palestinian state.

If, if, if, yes. But if this happened, would the sacrifice of the victims in Gaza have been worth it?

Of course it’s not up to us middle-aged IT managers sitting in our comfy living rooms to decide that, but we can have a view.

Discuss.

But if this happened, would the sacrifice of the victims in Gaza have been worth it?

No, Israel (as a whole but not all populace) has shown very little to zero remorse for continual subjugation of Palestinians since 1948, if they haven’t realised by now that they fully and openly participate in an apartheid state then there is little hope for those in the future.

You just have to follow the Israeli media channels online and on YouTube to realise that there is no remorse in the greater population for the actions of the Israeli state and IDF.

Sure us English have a long history of being bastards in Ireland, but it us child’s play compared to Israel’s actions with regards to Palestinians.

No, it was just longer ago, “The Famine left hatred behind. Between Ireland and England, the memory of what was done and endured has lain like a sword.”

Sure us English have a long history of being bastards in Ireland, but it us child’s play compared to Israel’s actions with regards to Palestinians.

jesus christ

Sure us English have a long history of being bastards in Ireland, but it us child’s play compared to Israel’s actions with regards to Palestinians.

Give Cromwell’s conquest of Ireland a read.

Horrific airstrike on Beit Lahia camp in north Gaza, more than 70 killed. Don’t look at twitter reports as it’s just limbs and body parts.

The Irish famine was almost two hundred years ago and the reasons for it ceased to be an issue a very long time ago. In contrast the Gaza famine kicked in a few months ago and the reasons behind it are still very prevalent today, it is an ongoing event.

I can see nothing useful in comparing Gaza today with the Troubles in NI, and even less with Ireland of 1850.

OK, not every Jew is an israeli zionist, though the ones living in israel are well aware of whats happening in their name and are pretty much complicit in it.

But it appears from the zionist point of view, that as far as they are concerned the Palestinian people are little better than animals, which is pretty much how the nazis thought of them.

It was Kissinger that said “Any people who has been persecuted for two thousand years must be doing something wrong.”

I think we can add another 2000 years because of this genocide.

the reasons for it ceased to be an issue a very long time ago.

Thanks for taking the time to explain Irish history and its lasting impact on the Irish to me. I was actually reading some stuff on the link with the Choctaw nation and Ireland before reading this thread, obviously I shouldn’t have bothered as it’s not vaguely important.

I can see nothing useful in comparing Gaza today with the Troubles in NI, and even less with Ireland of 1850

Neither can I.

I can also see nothing useful in allowing some misguided view that British occupation of Ireland; the million or so dead in the famine, the million forced to flee, the hundreds of thousands murdered colonising it and countless other crimes was just some minor annoyance that started in the late 1960’s be alllowed to stand.

This history is why the Irish government and people have been extremely supportive of the Palestinian people.

It was Kissinger that said “Any people who has been persecuted for two thousand years must be doing something wrong.”

I think we can add another 2000 years because of this genocide.

Well there’s a classic anti-semitic statement , even if Kissinger did say it, although I suspect that he might have  said it in jest.

And no, Jews will not be persecuted for another 2000 years because of this genocide. Jews are not responsible for the current genocide in Gaza, zionists are. And that includes all zionists, including people like Joe Biden and the King of Saudi Arabia.

Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that Israelis are not psychopathic lunatics

There is nothing to suppose, Israelis are not psychopathic lunatics. Anymore than Germans were psychopathic lunatics because of the holocaust.