Gaza

This is just dismal from you, @ernielynch. It’s bollocks from any angle, and even more so on the opaquely-funded Middle East Eye.

Jews had already suffered persecution and maltreatment since the 30s, including earlier bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more before the bombings Avi Shlaim talks about took place. More than half the Jewish population of Iraq had already either left or registered to emigrate, so these bombings were rather late, to say the least, if they were in an Israeli inside job.

The Jewish part of my family are from Iraq, so I know the history and stories. Even if Shlaim is right, and there’s very little evidence of this, those bombings are a drop in the ocean of what caused Iraqi Jews to flee.

EDIT: I realise the above was just another deflection, perhaps because you’d had a strop at nickc in the post before, but I didn’t want to let that nonsense go unchallenged.

I didn’t want to let that nonsense go unchallenged.

You do realise that you are challenging an Israeli historian who is Jewish Iraqi, not me, don’t you? I am sure that  Avi Shlaim is aware of bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more.

This is just dismal from you

What is….. posting a link to an article by an Israeli historian? Why,  he is the wrong sort of Jew? I didn’t write the article.

My only comment was that it sounds shocking, but then as I pointed out the Hannibal Directive is also shocking so it shouldn’t come as a great surprise.

Any comment about the Hannibal Directive btw? Or is any discussion connected to the behaviour of Israel which you don’t approve of a “deflection”.

I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.

@benos and everyone else.

Give up.

You’ll have a more productive and I dare say more enjoyable evening repeatedly slamming your dick in a drawer than engaging with him.

He’s a master at what he does and if theres one thing I’ve learned in life it’s that you will never beat a master baiter.

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october

Channel 4 program today about the terror attacks of 7 October.

Thats basically israeli propaganda, because what we’ll never have broadcast is the pictures and films of the aftermath of israeli missile strikes on family homes.

A few of those showing Palestinian families blown apart or small children having limbs amputated without anesthetic and support for israel would curl up and die.

what we’ll never have broadcast is the pictures and films of the aftermath of israeli missile strikes on family homes

I’m guessing you don’t watch Channel4 news much?

So yesterday the Guardian published an article by former Labour leader Gordon Brown in which he claims that nearly one million children in Gaza have been displaced, and that there is one toilet per 850 people.

Gordon Brown goes on to claim that 85% of parents report that their children have gone at least one whole day without food and that at least 50,000 children are suffering from acute malnutrition.

He then goes on to say that more than 4O% of families in Gaza have been caring for children who are not their own. 20,000 children have been orphaned. And 60% of children in some camps have developed stammering and other communication issues.

I post a link to Gordon Brown’s article and what he suggests should be done but those who otherwise have so much to say suddenly have nothing to say. Other than accuse me of “deflection”…….. the thread is about Gaza, the clue is in the title that Mark gave it.

And then squirrelking turns up and talks about “repeatedly slamming your dick in a drawer”, and makes an oh so funny “master baiter” comment, that’s his contribution. Not stw at its finest.

An Israeli Attack on Iran’s Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb

https://archive.li/2024.10.09-161739/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-10-09/ty-article-opinion/.premium/an-israeli-attack-on-irans-nuclear-sites-would-push-tehran-to-build-a-bomb/00000192-7183-d2b4-afbe-ff9b439b0000

An interesting article well worth reading imo, I certainly had no idea about claims such as this:

Iran is still hesitating – for political and possibly also for religious reasons – about producing a bomb and becoming a nuclear power for all intents and purposes. Iran is not a nuclear state because it hasn’t yet firmly decided whether it’s in its interest to become one. If it was determined to become a full nuclear state, it would have reached this goal long ago, yet it still prefers to remain a nuclear threshold state.

Edit: And particularly this :

Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.

Days?

I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.

That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down

It doesn’t promote useful discussion toward the very thing that everyone here wants; stopping bloodshed and a satisfactory peace for all in the region

Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.

Iran was close to “breakout time” in April so that isn’t surprising. Iran’s programme accelerated after the 2018 decision by President Trump to break a 2015 agreement to limit Iran’s nuclear programme in exchange for lifting sanctions.

Constantly focusing on a single issue, Gaza, ignores the entire region and bemoaning perceived inaction by the west to limit Israel increases the likelihood of a second Trump Presidency.

Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?

I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.

No one is wanting to remove focus from Israeli war crimes here. It’s by far the biggest and worst part of this whole situation at the moment.

This however does not mean it’s the only focus, nor that discussing other things reduces the importance of this aspect.

When you post something highlighting (for example) a horrific war crime, there’s not much anything constructive anyone can post except 10 posts of agreement along the lines of “oh dear how terrible”. I think you can take silence as agreement much of the time. On the other hand when you post something contentious, then you get people picking up on that and discussing it. It may lead to a little perceived bias if you look at the posts here sometimes but it is NOT bias, unless you consider any discussion of anything other than Israeli war crimes to be supporting Zionism (as hinted by your “like other zionist supporters” dig)

(“You” above meaning anyone, not “you” specifically. Just mostly ;-) )

An Israeli Attack on Iran’s Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb (etc)

Interesting. I thought that the main thing holding Iran back (time-wise) was the enrichment of uranium, which has to be done to a much higher percentage for weapons than for power, and takes a long time.
If it’s true that they could have a bomb ready within weeks/days then that implies they already have enough purified uranium for this already made and waiting.

From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger.

That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down

I want to focus on the ongoing slaughter of innocent people. I’m not going to apologise for that. Differences of opinion around peripheral topics can be interesting and informative but they do tend to normalise the atrocities we are witness to, so they’re hard to address appropriately.

It doesn’t promote useful discussion toward the very thing that everyone here wants; stopping bloodshed and a satisfactory peace for all in the region

The bloodshed can stop when the people doing the killing stop. It’s that simple.

Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?

For a Palestinian, what difference would it make?

That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down

You do realise that it you who is constantly challenging me and DrJ, not the other way round, don’t you? Everything you post on this thread appears to be a challenge, nothing seems to be anything other than a reaction.

I constantly post stuff which is totally unconnected to any previous comments by anyone, for example the Gordon Brown article about Gaza in the Guardian, how about commenting on that? It is clear that Gordon Brown made an effort and did a lot of research for that article, and it’s about “Gaza”, the subject matter of this thread.

I agree that there is an attempt to shut down the debate but it clearly isn’t me and DrJ who are responsible for that.

Constantly focusing on a single issue, Gaza

Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as “deflection” by Israel’s supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.

Here’s that article again btw

Today, our hearts are breaking for the children of Gaza. Tomorrow, we must give them peace | Gordon Brown https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/hearts-breaking-children-gaza-tomorrow-peace?CMP=share_btn_url

Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as “deflection” by Israel’s supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.

Should we open a new thread to discuss Lebanon, Iran, Yemen and the whole rest of the current Middle East situation apart from Gaza? It makes sense to keep it all here IMO.

Also, please stop painting anyone who disagrees as Israel/Zionist supporters.

I constantly post stuff which is totally unconnected to any previous comments by anyone, for example the Gordon Brown article about Gaza in the Guardian, how about commenting on that?

I have read the article, it’s a horrendous situation and I fully agree it needs to be sorted out properly and will have effects for a long time.

My wife works as a therapist, a lot of that is dealing with childhood trauma. Even seemingly small events can affect people in later life to quite a large degree. I also have 5 young children of my own and find it hard to even think about some of the things that are happening over there.

Although let’s not also forget that child casualties would quite a bit smaller if Hamas et al would stop using children as human shields, child soldiers and tunnel workers. Hamas themselves are on the UN’s list for violating children’s rights (as are Israel, of course).

But Israel are worser, so let’s ignore this.

how about commenting on that?

But this is you still trying to dominate and direct the conversation. You’ll either ignore or accuse others of diverting the thread away from the very specific things that you want to discuss if they dare say things or link to articles that don’t align with your own views and opinions. Then insist that we all comment on the things that you do bring to the discussion and complain and accuse everyone of being a Zionist shill if we don’t.

Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.

Days?

It is just another way of justifying a preemptive strike. i.e. prepare the public opinion to be on their side before they strike, then after the strike they would announce their success in eliminating the threats and the world will be in “peace” again.

From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger.

It is a real danger and they will use it like USA (atomic) in the past.  It is also another way of trying to establish themselves as the regional hegemon mimicking the US concept of “Monroe Doctrine” , where they exert their dominance . They need to eliminate all potential “threats” from the region so will arm themselves heavily.

Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?

Different side of the same coin.

Jews had already suffered persecution and maltreatment since the 30s, including earlier bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more before the bombings Avi Shlaim talks about took place.

I once asked my Jewish colleague why they have been persecuted throughout history, he never gave me an answer.  I was curious because there must be something that triggered the persecution.

But this is you still trying to dominate and direct the conversation. You’ll either ignore or accuse others of diverting the thread away from the very specific things that you want to discuss if they dare say things or link to articles that don’t align with your own views and opinions. Then insist that we all comment on the things that you do bring to the discussion and complain and accuse everyone of being a Zionist shill if we don’t.

What on earth has that ^^ got to do with Gaza? And you are accusing me of diverting the thread, seriously?

Some random thoughts floating around my brain that may or may not make sense:

– If Iran are days away from making a bomb, why don’t they just make it but keep it secret? It’s not like they have to declare “we are now a nuclear nation”

– “From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger.” Well they’ve had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.

– If Israel had not been suspected of having nuclear weapons, would it still exist now or would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?

– I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran’s nuclear sites and say “wow, what a big explosion our conventional bomb caused, must’ve been their bombs going up, tut tut”

Also, please stop painting anyone who disagrees as Israel/Zionist supporters.

Of course not. Me and DrJ have strongly disagreed on this thread but it would be daft to accuse him of being an Israel/zionist supporter.

I call people who support Israel and zionism Israel/zionist supporters, people like yourself. I am not sure what the purpose of you suggesting that you don’t support Israel and zionism is, you obviously do. Even if you don’t support everything about the current government.

Anyway let’s stick to the issue of Palestine.

“I would never do that”, then immediately does that.

If Iran are days away from making a bomb, why don’t they just make it but keep it secret? It’s not like they have to declare “we are now a nuclear nation”

I think it would require detonating a nuclear device which can’t really be kept secret.

Also all countries which possess nuclear weapons (with the exception of Israel) advertise that fact very loudly, because that is precisely how the deterrent aspect of nuclear weapons works, it has zero deterrent value if your potential enemies don’t know you have it.

Well they’ve had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.

Not the time to use it yet.  Eventually, everyone will use theirs and that’s where the fireworks start. (hypnotic voice in the background … “press the button all of you”)

 If Israel had not been suspected of having nuclear weapons, would it still exist now or would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?

Yes, even without nuke Israel would still exist with the help of USA, UK and other EU nations. C’mon Israel as a state come into being without nuke (but their support has atomic in those days).    Even if Iran or their neighbours have nuke they would not use it because of the Muslim population and the respect for the second holy land.  Now that the population is “not mixed” anymore the use of nuke will be highly plausible in future.

 I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran’s nuclear sites and say “wow, what a big explosion our conventional bomb caused, must’ve been their bombs going up, tut tut”

It is always good to show “evidence” of the threats as a way to redirect public opinion that the enemy had a stockpile ready to launch.

 why don’t they just make it but keep it secret?

It isn’t known that they haven’t, and it doesn’t matter anyway, most analysis says that they can do it pretty rapidly, and they have an existing ballistic missile capability to deliver it. I don’t think the change from threatening to become to actually being a nuclear armed state would make that much difference diplomatically.

Well they’ve had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.

Is largely the point of these weapons

would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?

I would suggest that diplomatic efforts to normalise relationships regionally is probably more effective than the threat of destruction. The 7th Oct attack was largely an effort by Iran to put a stop to Israel and S.A. from developing a closer relationship after all, and wasn’t made in a vacuum that Israel has these sorts of  weapons.

I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran’s nuclear sites

I don’t think there’s any sort of deliverable weapon short of nuclear that could destroy Iran’s under-mountain sites. Given how effective Mossad has been in the past infiltrating Iran, it’s more likely that any attack mounted to disrupt their nuclear capability will be espionage based.

Although let’s not also forget that child casualties would quite a bit smaller if Hamas et al would stop using children as human shields, child soldiers and tunnel workers

Well there you go again. You want space to discuss topics other than Israeli war crimes, but when presented with, in this case, an article about child victims of Israel’s obliteration of Gaza, you pop up with the claim that in fact it’s the Palestinians’ fault that Israel drops bombs on their childrens’ heads.

If there is one thing that the last year has taught us is that Hamas using children as human shields would be totally ineffective, the IDF has no respect for the lives of Palestinian children.

I fact there is documented evidence that the IDF use Palestinian children themselves as human shields.

because that is precisely how the deterrent aspect of nuclear weapons works, it has zero deterrent value if your potential enemies don’t know you have it.

Strategic Ambiguity is also a good defence policy, which is the policy that Israel employs

14:34

UN accuses Israel of trying to ‘destroy’ Gaza healthcare

https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/1010/1474643-middle-east-blog/

Investigators from the United Nations have said Israel is deliberately targeting health facilities and killing and torturing medical personnel in Gaza, accusing the country of “crimes against humanity”.

“Israel has perpetrated a concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza,” the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry said in a statement this afternoon.

Well there you go again. You want space to discuss topics other than Israeli war crimes, but when presented with, in this case, an article about child victims of Israel’s obliteration of Gaza, you pop up with the claim that in fact it’s the Palestinians’ fault that Israel drops bombs on their childrens’ heads.

I absolutely did not.

…But it is partly their fault. And by the way, Hamas’ fault, not the Palestinians. They’re different.

Hamas deliberately surround themselves with children when shooting at Israel. This is bad. Israel shoot back, with bombs. This is badder. Should we ignore Hamas?

Yes, this is Israel causing what’s happening now. It does not make me an Israel supporter to say Hamas has something to do with it as well.

If there is one thing that the last year has taught us is that Hamas using children as human shields would be totally ineffective, the IDF has no respect for the lives of Palestinian children.

I fact there is documented evidence that the IDF use Palestinian children themselves as human shields.

I agree with everything there. It doesn’t change anything I said. Are you implying there’s no documentary evidence of Hamas using human shields?

Edit:

UN accuses Israel of trying to ‘destroy’ Gaza healthcare

And of course there’s absolutely no excuse for this.

I want to focus on the ongoing slaughter of innocent people. I’m not going to apologise for that.

I wouldn’t expect anyone to feel that they have to apologise for that.

Differences of opinion around peripheral topics can be interesting and informative but they do tend to normalise the atrocities we are witness to, so they’re hard to address appropriately.

It’s a multi-faceted, inter-connected, multi-polar (and other buzzwords) world. These aren’t only peripheral topics but intertwined and relevant to peace

For a Palestinian, what difference would it make?

An example. In 2018 President Trump moved the US Embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. The State of Israel and the State of Palestine both claim Jerusalem as their capital, neither claim is widely recognised, but the move by Trump lends weight to Israel’s claim, some would consider that significant.

Most immediately, we need to step up our efforts for a ceasefire and intensify the pressure for the release of hostages. (Gordon Brown)

Yes, I read the Gordon Brown article. A truly awful situation, but stunningly obvious and not immediately relevant writing (until we have peace in the middle east). The experience of the UN in war zones around the globe means that we already have that sort of expertise. What is there to comment on until we have peace?

You do realise that it you who is constantly challenging me and DrJ, not the other way round, don’t you?

If I’m challenging you then it’s to widen the debate into the world where the solution lies. The solution isn’t solely in Gaza, in Israel or solely anywhere else

Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as “deflection” by Israel’s supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.

It’s a multi-faceted, inter-connected, multi-polar (and other buzzwords) world.You can’t discuss Gaza in isolation, “ernielynch An Israeli Attack on Iran’s Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb” 14 hours ago.

An example. In 2018 President Trump moved the US Embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. The State of Israel and the State of Palestine both claim Jerusalem as their capital, neither claim is widely recognised, but the move by Trump lends weight to Israel’s claim, some would consider that significant.

But it didn’t cost any lives, so compared with the impact of Biden’s ongoing supply of bombs it is of zero consequence. I’m sure Trump would be no less keen to keep sending supplies to help the killing of brown people, but it’s not night and day.

Israeli forces fire on UN peacekeepers in Lebanon

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1155551

“UNIFIL’s Naqoura headquarters and nearby positions have been repeatedly hit,” the UN mission said in a statement. “This morning, two peacekeepers were injured after an IDF Merkava tank fired its weapon toward an observation tower at UNIFIL’s headquarters in Naqoura, directly hitting it and causing them to fall.

This is what the IDF think about children:

65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza

https://archive.is/cRSC6

I worked as a trauma surgeon in Gaza from March 25 to April 8. I’ve volunteered in Ukraine and Haiti, and I grew up in Flint, Mich. I’ve seen violence and worked in conflict zones. But of the many things that stood out about working in a hospital in Gaza, one got to me: Nearly every day I was there, I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or the chest, virtually all of whom went on to die. Thirteen in total.

At the time, I assumed this had to be the work of a particularly sadistic soldier located nearby. But after returning home, I met an emergency medicine physician who had worked in a different hospital in Gaza two months before me. “I couldn’t believe the number of kids I saw shot in the head,” I told him. To my surprise, he responded: “Yeah, me, too. Every single day.”

Shooting at UN Peacekeepers now?

But, I suppose if all you ever get for your thuggery is strong words, then you tend not to give a toss.

This is what the IDF think about children:5 6 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza

The two authors of the report though are, like the two main antagonists in this forum thread, well known one sided activists outside their day job.  One has a twitter history of familiar sounding quotes comparing Israel to the Nazis and the other is down with calling October 7th last year an innovative and astounding achievement.

The two authors of the report though are, like the two main antagonists in this forum thread, well known one sided activists outside their day job.  One has a twitter history of familiar sounding quotes comparing Israel to the Nazis and the other is down with calling October 7th last year an innovative and astounding achievement.

Is there some aspect of the report you wish to challenge? Or is ad hominem all you’ve got?

“You have to watch this immensely revealing and horrifying testimony by Jewish-American humanitarian surgeon Mark Perlmutter who spent 2 weeks in Gaza”

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1815494340635963690