Gaza

Well history teaches us all lessons, even if politicians ignore those lessons. The last 1000 years is littered with examples of more powerful groups repressing smaller or more vulnerable groups. Most recently it’s been the Russia, Soviet Union, Vietnam further back the British Empire, French Empire and so on. All have the same outcome so there is an inevitability about Palestine and Israel.

Also history teaches us if you repress a group with violence and treat them.like animals then they will respond in greater numbers and act like animals.

The West accepts Israels behaviour because of the holocaust and the west also feels a responsibility for the holocaust. The soloution is the creation of a Palestinian state, this will never be accepted by Israel.

The ordinary citizens of Palestine, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria or anywhere else have very little power to stop conflict. But you knew that didn’t you?

Of course. If you’re desperately looking for clean water for your kids, there’s not much you can do to influence geopolitics. But if you’re dropping bombs on schools, that’s different. I repeat – one side is being slaughtered. Stop it.

Well history teaches us all lessons

Doesn’t seem to be many lessons learned from history among the Israeli govt, military and those who support them. You’d think they’d have a unique pespective on the issue of genocide but apparently not.

Especially by Hamas who had boycotted the elections anyway before Israel stuck its oar in.

LOL boycotting elections doesn’t stop them from happening!

The reason there wasn’t any elections throughout  Palestine in 2021 is because of Israel, not Hamas. So there is no point blaming Hamas, unless of course you want to deliberately mislead people.

As for Hamas’s past boycotting of elections it was intense pressure from the EU for them to participate which led them to finally agreeing to getting involved. I believe the EU funded the elections. Obviously the EU calculation was that Hamas would lose the elections and thereby delegitimize themselves.

Never forget that Hamas was funded and supported by Israel as a counter to the left-wing secular PLO at a time when the West thought it was a great idea to fund and support similar Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan.

Netanyahu continued to prop up Hamas throughout his various premierships. Netanyahu himself is an atheist but religious Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists have one thing in common, they are both right-wing.

Although Netanyahu’s reasons for supporting Hamas was the obvious one, as sworn enemies of the left-wing secular PLO it sowed divisions among the Palestinian people and made their opression easier. Unfortunately the PLO is deeply corrupt so the balance has for a long time been moving in Hamas’s favour.

The new year is 5785

Great, I’ve got a Jewish accountant who can’t count 🙁

Doesn’t seem to be many lessons learned from history among the Israeli govt, military and those who support them. You’d think they’d have a unique pespective on the issue of genocide but apparently not.

That really is the true tragedy for the region.

I think it is clear why Netanyahu gave the order to assassinate Hassan Nasrallah, he wants war.

Hezbollah leader agreed to temporary ceasefire days before assassination, says Lebanese foreign minister

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/03/middleeast/lebanon-hezbollah-nasrallah-ceasefire-assassination-intl-latam/index.html

A day earlier, a joint statement issued by the United States, France, Australia, Canada, the European Union, Germany, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom, and Qatar called for a 21-day ceasefire, “to give diplomacy a chance to succeed and avoid further escalations across the border.”

Hezbollah leader agreed to temporary ceasefire days before assassination, says Lebanese foreign minister

So far uncorroborated, and the US announced in their press briefing yesterday that nothing had been said to them. At this point the story seems unlikely to be true.

At this point the story seems unlikely to be true.

“False flag”. Kerching!!!

Meanwhile, the re-occupation of Gaza gathers pace …

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-establishing-infrastructure-for-long-term-military-presence-in-gaza-satellite-images-suggest-13206114

the US announced in their press briefing yesterday that nothing had been said to them. At this point the story seems unlikely to be true.

You do realise that this report by CNN makes Netanyahu look really bad don’t you? So an official from the Biden administration is hardly likely to back up the claim and say “yeah it’s true, Hassan Nasrallah had agreed to our ceasefire proposal”. They are supposed to be helping the psychopath, not making him look bad.

You will note that Biden adminstration official is careful not to deny the claim, only that he allegedly wasn’t aware of it. When you add the fact that despite Donald Trump’s deep hatred of CNN, he calls it “fake news’, it is actually a reasonable source of reliable news,  we can assume that the story is highly likely to be true.

I note that the Donald Trump tactic is being used more and more on this thread btw. I can see the attraction of this particular tactic, shouting “fake news” not only saves the trouble of providing a counterargument or explanation but it also satisfies your supporters who aren’t interested in the truth anyway.

As the US proposed the ceasefire, telling them he’d agreed to it would be a critical step to Nasrallah accepting it, no? It would be wise to see what other parties say before making wild claims.

I note that the Donald Trump tactic is being used more and more on this thread btw.

That’s actually funny coming from someone who calls “Hasbara!” as often as you.

The full question and response from the US state dept press briefing, just so you don’t think I’m trying to save myself “the trouble of providing a counterargument or explanation”.

https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-october-3-2024/

QUESTION: Okay. Same area, slightly different topic. Lebanese foreign minister told CNN today or yesterday that Hassan Nasrallah, before he was killed, had actually agreed to the 21-day ceasefire that the U.S. had been putting together last week. Is that accurate?

MR MILLER: So I can’t speak to whether he ever agreed to it and told somebody inside Lebanon. Obviously that could be something that happened that we wouldn’t be aware of. I can tell you that if that’s true, it was never communicated to us in any way, shape, or form.

QUESTION: And you guys met with – Secretary Blinken met with Lebanese officials.

MR MILLER: He did.

QUESTION: In New York.

MR MILLER: We were having a number of —

QUESTION: And specifically discussed this 21-day ceasefire.

MR MILLER: We were having a number of conversations with Lebanese officials, as well as with others in the region. And I can tell you at no time was it ever communicated to us that Hizballah had accepted a ceasefire.

QUESTION: But they were giving you confidence that they might, but it wasn’t necessarily from Nasrallah?

MR MILLER: So we were having a number of diplomatic engagements to talk about the proposals that we were going to put forward.

QUESTION: Right.

MR MILLER: I think all the parties were well aware of the proposals that we were going to put forward, but at no time in those conversations did we get a message that Hizballah was – Hizballah had agreed or was going to agree to it.

QUESTION: Or Nasrallah himself.

MR MILLER: Yeah, or Nasrallah – well, I mean that – one and the same.

before making wild claims.

Wild claims? Why on earth do you categorize it as “wild claims”? The claim is perfectly reasonable, it has been reported by news providers across the globe, and my link was to a reputable US news source.

That’s actually funny coming from someone who calls “Hasbara!” as often as you.

Do you actually know what hasbara is? It’s not the same as “fake news”.

“Fake news” is something which is only in Donald Trump’s, and his supporters, heads, it isn’t actually real. And in contrast hasbara is a very real multimillion dollar Israeli government project.

Not once have I “called” hasbara to a claim being made, never mind “often”. I have on a few occasions mentioned it because it is a vital Israeli tactic which in the last year has so dramatically failed.

Indeed Netanyahu has expressed his outrage at its failure and a very senior Israeli government spokesperson was sacked. Expenditure on it has been increased significantly.

Genocide is very hard to sell.

The full question and response from the US state dept press briefing,

I am not sure what you think that adds to the discussion. It has already been established that a Biden adminstration official claims that they weren’t told, and I have pointed out the denial is hardly surprising as the “wild claim” makes Netanyahu look really bad. What do think the transcript adds?

Everyone knows that Netanyahu wanted to expand the war and didn’t want a ceasefire, assassinating the leader of one of the parties involved in the ceasefire negotiations guaranteed that.

Who the hell deliberately assassinates one side’s leader during peace talks?

Here is an example of Netanyahu’s fury at the failure of hasbara (which is very real and costs a lot of money)

https://archive.li/2024.03.21-172346/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-21/ty-article/.premium/israels-hasbara-is-failing-thats-good-news/0000018e-61b1-d66c-a7fe-65b3c7f50000

Eylon Levy has been sacked since that article was written.

You will note that Biden adminstration official is careful not to deny the claim, only that he allegedly wasn’t aware of it.

That isn’t the case

MR MILLER: We were having a number of conversations with Lebanese officials, as well as with others in the region. And I can tell you at no time was it ever communicated to us that Hizballah had accepted a ceasefire.

My bold. Mr Miller did not say, “I haven’t heard that”

Speaking as a broadly neutral, centrist bore…

I can assure the main combatants on this thread that:

The majority of people were shocked and appalled by the Hamas attacks on 7th Oct 2023 and, whilst concerned about a possible Israeli overreaction, supported the limited aims of dealing a commensurate blow to Hamas and getting as many hostages back as possible. Whilst broadly sympathetic to Palestinians, no one in their right mind would be anything other than repelled by Hamas’s methods on 7th Oct.

However, any sympathy for Israel over the trauma of 7th Oct rapidly gave way to revulsion at the aggression (constantly called self-defence) which Israel pursued in Gaza. The first few weeks clearly demonstrated collective punishment (a war crime in its own right) whilst moving further and further into ethnic cleansing territory. First they were going to conduct cross-border operations. Then it was only going to be the north. Then it would only be the north and middle, then…

And now expanding the war to Lenanon, Yemen and God knows where else. Clearly the comms attack on Hezbollah was already set up prior to 7th Oct. Bombing other state capitals.

There is no doubt in my mind that Netanyahu was simply waiting for something like 7th Oct to unleash a pre-planned offensive against anyone he perceives as an enemy. In time, the circumstances around Israeli blindness to the planning of 7th Oct may come to light. But for now I believe Israel really was caught on the hop.

But the ‘retaliation’ was already planned as a totally out of kilter multiple escalation. Capabilities, hardware, plans, manpower. It was all ready to go. And not just as a result of Israel’s long-standing situation – specifically on the instructions of the current government.

I don’t know what point you are trying to make timba.

“at no time was it ever communicated to us” is not denying the claim that Hezbollah had agreed to a ceasefire, just pleading ignorance. 

Mr Miller did not say, “I haven’t heard that”

Who said that Mr Miller said “I haven’t heard that”….me? I can’t remember saying that.

And “it was ever communicated to us” and “we weren’t told” sounds exactly the same to me, why are we nitpicking words?

Anyway I think that particular topic has been done to death now, you either believe that Netanyahu ordered the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah to scupper ceasefire talks or you don’t. How about moving on……any comments on the hasbara article?

Anyway I think that particular topic has been done to death now, you either believe that Netanyahu ordered the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah to scupper ceasefire talks or you don’t. How about moving on……any comments on the hasbara article?

Why do you move arguments along when you introduced them?

You skipped over this one too (p36)

ernielynch…but why aren’t Western nations putting a stop to the current genocide in Gaza?

timba…How can they?

And didn’t offer much on the suggestion that Iran also needs to stop supplying munitions to the Houthis/Hamas/Hezbollah

And didn’t offer much on the suggestion that Iran also needs to stop supplying munitions to the Houthis/Hamas/Hezbollah

Was it a serious suggestion? Iran should stop arming H/H/H while the West continues to arm Israel and Saudi?

Why do you move arguments along when you introduced them?

I provided a link to a CNN article, I didn’t really expect to have an argument over it, never mind a long protracted one involving the fine definitions of terms.

You and benos have made your points and I have made mine, what else do you think there is left to discuss?

Any comments on hasbara,  a subject brought onto this page by benos? The Haatetz article?

I imagine (hope?) the ICC will be kept busy for a number of years prosecuting all those involved on both sides of this war,

the ICC will be kept busy for a number of years prosecuting all those involved on both sides of this war

Might be difficult when the defendants on one side are probably all dead, and the defendants on the other are under the protection of the US and UK governments.

The winners write the rules as well as the history of a conflict.

Might be difficult when the defendants on one side are probably all dead, and the defendants on the other are under the protection of the US and UK governments.

Possibly true, but if they are not prosecuted then all bets are off and it’s a free for all in any future conflicts. The video is quite revealing as to the utter dehumanising belief that the IDF hold for Palestinians, and with what is happening in Lebanon I expect no better from them.

It could be very dangerous for the British/israeli citizens that have fought for the IDF as their names have been posted in a number of online sources.

Israelis has been responsible for massacres against Palestinians since 1948, the ICC has never prosecuted any Israelis responsible for war crimes.

Just one example……..in 1983 the United Nations found Israel responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982.

The IDF guarded the exits of the refugee camp so that no one could not escape whilst their right-wing christian henchmen were committing mass-murder against Palestinians refugees and Lebanese Shias.

The Israelis even fired flares throughout the night to illuminate Sabra and Shatila so that their allies could see what they were doing, as they slaughtered people throughout the night.

There was never any justice for the victims of Sabra and Shatila.

Just one example……..in 1983 the United Nations found Israel responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982.

I think I read about that massacre in a graphic novel/book by Joe Sacco, you only need to look at the furore created by Jenrick’s latest outburst regarding the “supposed killing” of detainees by special forces – absolutely double standards and blatant racism in not holding the IDF/Israel to the same standards.

An unsurprisingly massive turnout at today’s national demonstration in London in support of Palestine. You usually see a few Lebanese flags at these demonstrations but today there were a huge amount. Which surprised me as no stalls were selling them, unlike the Palestinian flags.

And as usual a lot of high-profile Jewish presence – huge banners and homemade placards, kippot, etc. Which is truly heartwarming, although I can understand the anger which they must feel about what is being falsely done in their names. As one banner pointed out “There is nothing Jewish about apartheid”

There is a video of a pro-pally supporter arrested in London today for turning up dressed as a paraglider complete with a parachute. Vile

Edit: never mind, just googled the significance.

complete with a parachute.

How did attending a packed demo attached to a parachute work? It was actually quite windy and there were a lot of trees on route, can you share the video?

No need to be obtuse.

https://x.com/obbsie/status/1842587549442994248

https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1842589089264025671

https://x.com/IncMonocle/status/1842547547623055748

24 people killed in an attack on a mosque, but yeah – let’s get our knickers in a twist about a bad taste fancy dress.

24 people killed in an attack on a mosque, but yeah – let’s get our knickers in a twist about a bad taste fancy dress.

Mosque and a school. Really going after the hard points now are the patriotic apple pie guys of the IDF.

There would probably be worse taste fancy dress, banners and chants at a Liverpool vs Man Utd game.

Israel relinquished any moral high ground long ago. The majority of folk can see what is going on.

Obtuse? I was genuinely interested. That first video is truly bizarre, I have never seen anything like it, what a strange thing to do!

The third video is actually really useful, I have already posted it on my local Palestine Solidarity Campaign WhatsApp group as an example of how not to react to deliberate provocation by Israel supporters.

I had posted last night a comment that I was disappointed that too many people gave in to the temptation of reacting to the small group of a hundred or so zionists who inevitably turn up to try to wind up the hundreds of thousands of  Palestine supporters.

I pointed out that they are there for one reason and one reason only, to get a reaction. So reacting is doing exactly what they want. There is one zionist supporter who turns up to most demos waving a proper official IDF flag, luckily very few people indeed know what it is (I had to google it)

I of course recognise their right to demonstrate their support for Netanyahu and what the IDF are doing in Gaza but I don’t know why they are allowed to do it at a predetermined position on the precise route of a demo in support of Palestinians, it is provocation and nothing else, a public order issue I would have thought. London is a huge city they could have their counter-demo far away somewhere else.

Obviously it is easier for me to say don’t react to provocation from those who support the genocide in Gaza because I don’t have family and friends that have been killed by the IDF, many on the demo will have been Palestinian and Lebanese.

Young Palestinian mothers make up the backbone of my local Palestine solidarity groups** – yesterday I was walking alongside a couple of them. One of them always takes her little girl on demos, on one demo she wore a white t-shirt sputtered with red and the words “I am not a target”. You can imagine how they feel when they see Netanyahu supporters waving  Israeli flags.

What I find interesting about the third video is that I can’t see a police officer in sight, usually they form a line in front of counter demonstrators and yet despite the fact that the angry Palestine supporter is in touching distance, as well it would appear loads others, nothing happens to the Netanyahu supporter, they obviously don’t need police protection.

Anyway thanks for posting the videos :thumbs:

Edit: When I say “backbone” I mean in an administrative sense, such as chairing meetings, organising, etc. It might come as a surprise to many just how much control and influence deeply religious Muslim women can have.

It might come as a surprise to many just how much control and influence deeply religious Muslim women can have.

Well, only to those whose opinions are dominated by racist stereotypes.

Dr Omer Bartov has come out and said Israel is committing genocidal actions, ethnic cleansing and annexation of the Gaza strip, The U.S. and the allies providing weapons are also complicit.

I attempted to show the links describing who Omer Bartov is and why he should be listened too but well….you know the forums ability to include links is fubar so google if you can be arsed.

edit : opened back up, tried to edit but nope……links will not insert…..fubar,

I attempted to show the links describing who Omer Bartov is and why he should be listened to….

You mean because he is an Israeli born historian and former member of the IDF and is now Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies?

https://vivo.brown.edu/display/obartov#

“Israel Guilty of Genocide, Ethnic-Cleansing; US Totally Complicit’: Omer Bartov

https://thewire.in/video/israel-guilty-of-genocide-ethnic-cleansing-us-totally-complicit-omer-bartov

Omer Bartov, one of the world’s foremost scholars on the holocaust and genocide studies, has said Israel is guilty of “genocide, ethnic-cleansing and annexation” in Gaza. 

Yep, that’s the one ^

Perhaps they should pass laws to make war crimes illegal?

For everyone.