Gaza

I’m not trying to play it down at all.

Firstly, I pointed out my amusement at the leaping on UN Watch’s “agenda” because of its links to Israel, specifically calling out the use of “Watch” in its name, and then unironically posting an article sourced from a Palestinian-run agency with “Monitor” in its name as if the same standards shouldn’t apply.

Secondly, I had a massive reading comprehension fail to which I hold up my hands.

Thirdly, this is a delicate point that I am no doubt making in an extremely clumsy manner. The article wants to draw comparison with WW2 so if the Allies killed ~25000 over the 3 nights bombing of Dresden, then after 10 months of bombing an area with almost 10x the population density and with almost 20x the amount of (apparently higher yield) bombs, surely if the intent was eradication of Gazan Palestinians then we’d be talking about at least an order of magnitude more deaths than have been reported.

At no point within this post am I stating agreement with what’s happening in Gaza, nor am I numb to the plight of the civilians under attack and forced to flee. I’m saying that with the huge technological and firepower advantage the IDF has, by the measures used in the WW2 comparison article, then either they’re pretty shit at the whole extermination thing or maybe it is actually about destroying Hamas after all – not that I think they ever could truly end Hamas or that this is the way they should be going about it.

I made no suggestion. It was a very clear question.

“I’m just asking questions” – a tactic/phrase beloved of right-wing US talk show hosts.

There is no point pretending that everyone is opposed to what Netanyahu and his government is doing in Gaza. It simply isn’t true.

And nor is there any point pretending the average Palestinian doesn’t agree with the attacks on October 7th

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

And if you agree with terrorist acts, what are you?

Cool, we appear to agree on a  couple of things!

The article makes the comparison with the bombing of London, Dresden, and Hamburg. If the headline gives the impression that that they are referring to the whole of WW2 (it doesn’t say that) then the article makes it absolutely clear what exactly it is referring to, you don’t even need to click on the article to see that.

I have already suggested the reason for a comparison with European cities.

And I have also already pointed out that yes of course EuroMed Human Rights Monitor has an agenda, which is obviously to monitor human rights! There is nothing wrong with having an agenda. It important to recognise what an organisation’s agenda is though, obviously.

then either they’re pretty shit at the whole extermination thing or maybe it is actually about destroying Hamas after all – not that I think they ever could

Absolutely they are shit at the whole extermination thing. They are also shit at destroying Hamas.

There are over a million children in Gaza so far the IDF has only managed to kill 15 thousands. They simply cannot wipe out the Palestinian people, nor can they destroy Hamas – they are currently fighting the children that they haven’t previously managed to kill in their countless incursions into Gaza of the last 20 years. At the moment they are creating the resistant fighters of the future, while simultaneously turning the whole world slowly against them.

The only thing in question is how many needless deaths will they cause?

Just asking questions

I had reasonable reason to assume that you might support the current IDF military operations in Gaza, most people living in Israel apparently do. As I understand it you live in Israel.

That does not make it comparable to “a right-wing US talk show host”, what a bizarre suggestion, and talk about leaping to conclusions!

Anyway this what we are up against:

Starvation already causing many deaths and lasting harm in Gaza, agencies say

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/05/starvation-already-causing-mass-death-and-lasting-harm-in-gaza-agencies-say

And:

Israel is flooding Gaza with so much aid, the UN is drowning under it. 

https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1798423365746868382

I do not live in Israel, although up until October last year I was helping keep the lights on in Gaza.

I was helping keep the lights on in Gaza

Which nicely backs up the United Nations claim that pre October last year Gaza was under unlawful occupation by Israel.

Not that there was any doubt of course but Israel tried to maintain the lie that Gaza was not under occupation – a claim firmly rejected by the United Nations.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722

They stressed that under international humanitarian law, the occupation of territory in wartime is a temporary situation and does not deprive the occupied power of its statehood or sovereignty. 

Where exactly were Israel located in Gaza before October 7th 2023? My understanding is that they completely withdrew in 2005. And if they’re weren’t in Gaza, how were they illegally occupying it?

Maybe your turn for reading comprehension fail? The article you linked doesn’t mention Gaza once, instead talking about Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

Yup, the United Nations rejects that assertion. It considers that Gaza was under occupation as Israel controlled everything going in and coming out, including the electricity.

And Florida gonna Florida. Not really sure what to say about this, it’s Florida. But this is not the way to show support for innocent civilians in Gaza.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-tire-shop-flies-nazi-flag-spring-park/M53BPQMCWFEMLKCZVO7EHSWHWI/

The BBC are reporting that the UN have placed the Israeli military on a list off militaries committing violations against children – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8883ndp2lko

About bloody time

4 hostages have just been released but the Gaza Health Ministry are are reporting dozens killed & injured (including children) as part of the operation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd11z2j34k4o

If the Gaza Health Ministry statement is true, this is Hamas admitting it uses children as human shields, not just to protect the lives of its fighters but to protect its political leverage.

Regardless of whatever else can be said about this conflict, or whether Israel shouldn’t have attempted the rescue because of the terrible cost, Hamas used the lives of Palestinian children to keep its ‘bargaining chips’ secure.

Or just the IDF killing children, again.

If the Gaza Health Ministry statement is true, this is Hamas admitting it uses children as human shields, not just to protect the lives of its fighters but to protect its political leverage.

It is no such thing. Obviously hostages will be in bombing distance of civilians. The ones responsible for killing children are the ones dropping bombs.

benosFull Member
If the Gaza Health Ministry statement is true, this is Hamas admitting it uses children as human shields, not just to protect the lives of its fighters but to protect its political leverage.

How dare hamas not hold the hostages in a compound away from everyone else, there’s loads of room in Gaza and I hear there are more tunnels than the London Underground underneath Gaza.  God bless the IDF, the most moral army in the world, or so I’m told every time one of their gobshite apologists appear on the screen.

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/palestinian-children-in-detention-report-increased-violence

Or just the IDF killing children, again.

Unfortunately nobody cares. As the UNRWA guy said, atrocities have been normalised now. The Israelis kill who they want and nobody bats an eyelid.

How dare hamas not hold the hostages in a compound away from everyone else, there’s loads of room in Gaza and I hear there are more tunnels than the London Underground underneath Gaza. God bless the IDF, the most moral army in the world, or so I’m told every time one of their gobshite apologists appear on the screen.

So commit horrendous violence against civilians, kidnap some and take them back home, then go and hide behind the women and kids in school, university and hospital buildings whilst directing your ongoing indiscriminate attacks from those locations – glossing over the fact that both of these are war crimes themselves, for the exact reason we’re seeing – and you should expect to be free from retribution as if you’re playing tig at school and you’re in “the den”?

As the UNRWA guy said, atrocities have been normalised now.

Indeed. It’s gone so far that certain communities actively and publicly celebrate them.

https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns

Long long before Oct 7 2023 :

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95J0FR/

United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/one-in-50-of-gaza-s-children-killed-or-injured-in-six-months-of-

RAMALLAH, 4 April 2024 – Nearly 26,000 children – or just over two percent of Gaza’s child population – have been killed or injured in Gaza in six months of a war which has decimated the health system and severed access to education, Save the Children said.

https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns

Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, in spite of describing itself as being “independent” and “non-partisan” in nature,[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab world and the Muslim world in a negative light by producing and disseminating incomplete or inaccurate translations of the original versions of the media reports that it re-publishes.[9][10] It has also been accused of selectively focusing on the views of Islamic extremists while de-emphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[11]

and you should expect to be free from retribution as if you’re playing tig at school and you’re in “the den”?

No but the children should surely be free from retribution?

Long long before Oct 7 2023

No one here is defending the IDF use of human shields.

But there are people here who appear to be defending Hamas using shields, either with whataboutery or with actual excuses.

But there are people here who appear to be defending Hamas using shields, either with whataboutery or with actual excuses.

Really? What I see is people defending the Israelis slaughtering children.  At this point there is nothing to say, nothing to argue about.

No one here is defending the IDF use of human shields.

But there are people here who appear to be defending Hamas using shields, either with whataboutery or with actual excuses.

I’ll refer you again to the poster on today’s demo in Central London

Do you not condemn atrocities committed by the Nazis 80 years ago because the allies also committed atrocities?

The dark side of the French Resistance: four graves in the forest

https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-03-05/the-dark-side-of-the-french-resistance-four-graves-in-the-forest.html

Yet again we hear Israel’s army is the most moral army in the world…….

Yeah right……whatever you say.

Do you not condemn atrocities committed by the Nazis 80 years ago because the allies also committed atrocities?

There it is again: “just asking questions”. Or maybe a simple Straw Man: non sequitur into a question about my personal opinion, but pose the question so the implication is that I hold an unforgivable viewpoint despite me never once even hinting that might be the case.

Whatever it is it’s occurred on numerous occasions on this thread in response to people posting an opinion that doesn’t fall in lockstep with your own. Despite how you might protest otherwise it’s a painfully transparent attempt to frame people you disagree with in a particular, negative, light. In this case a suggestion that I’m somehow ok with the Nazis.

I’m not even sure what point you’re trying and failing to make. I’ve never once claimed agreement with the IDF’s actions in Gaza – quite the opposite, although I haven’t jumped on the forum virtue signalling frenzy – but because I supported the truth of DrJ’s post with reports of ordinary Palestinian men, women and children partying in the streets over the October 7th attack somehow I’m… I don’t know… something to do with WW2 whataboutery? A closet Nazi sympathiser?

If I had thinner skin I’d probably be offended at the Nazi insinuation, but as it is I’m more concerned that the thought processes you must be dealing with to come up with this nonsense don’t really paint a great picture of your current mental state. I clearly wind you up so I guess the least I can do for you is to disengage from your posts in the hope you find some grounding.

Really? What I see is people defending the Israelis slaughtering children.

Please link to a single instance where this has occurred

Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group

It’s not an opinion piece, they’re commenting on an Al Jazeera/Mayadeen TV news report. It could be reported in the Daily Star but the facts remain regardless of however much you might not want to hear it: Palestinians were celebrating the October 7th attack, which is a massive weight of evidence in favour of your earlier post.

Palestinians were celebrating the October 7th attack,

What? All of them? Must have been some party! Or is it perhaps just a cherry picked report intended to promote a certain narrative?

If I had thinner skin I’d probably be offended at the Nazi insinuation

And if you had read the thread more diligently you would have realised that my comment regarding atrocities committed by the allies was aimed at benos not you.

Benos was repeating the usual whatabout Hamas this and whatabout Hamas that when Israeli war crimes was being discussed.

But since you seem to have a fixation with accusations of comparisons with the Nazis (you repeatedly mentioned that Nazis despite the fact that I only mentioned them once) here is a speech made in the House of Commons by a Zionist whose family died in the Holocaust and who repeatedly made comparisons between the behaviour of Israeli governments and the Nazis.

It is in my opinion one of the greatest ever speeches made in support of Palestine. And the fact that it was made by someone who was brought up as an  Orthodox Jew and Zionist adds to its quality.

I suspect that you won’t listen to it as it obviously doesn’t fit into your preferred narrative.

Christ, that speech by Gerald Kaufman is incredible!

@ernielynch to respond to the point I think you were making with the poster, what we also saw today were hostages rescued from where they’d been held captive in residential buildings in a refugee camp. The civilians killed in the operation were those Hamas was willing to sacrifice for its aims.

And like Ox, I don’t support Israel’s action in Gaza either. There are enough lessons from history to know how guerrilla warfare against an enemy ruthless enough to sacrifice its own women and children will end. I think the main difference between our views is that I want Israel to exist, while you don’t.

And so to your second point (although tbh I’m not sure what you meant either) I can condemn war crimes and atrocities committed by either side in a war. I wouldn’t try to justify targeting civilians, hostage-taking, or the use of human shields by anyone.

As for whataboutery, look at your posts this afternoon:

Whatabout
Deflect
Accuse
Repeat

My original point wasn’t whataboutery. The IDF went into a residential area and came out with rescued hostages, so there no ambiguity about the nature of the target. By claiming casualties, Hamas admits to war crimes.

And like Ox, I don’t support Israel’s action in Gaza either.

Who the hell does?

Israel’s actions in Gaza are utterly indefensible, no one is even going to attempt to support or defend them.

Apart from the occasional half-arsed comment trying to claim that it is Hamas who stealing aid from the Palestinians and that it has nothing to do with Israel deliberately starving them.

Trying to deflect criticism onto Hamas is about as much as can be expected.

Every day brings more bad news for Israel as its international isolation grows.

Colombia will suspend coal exports to Israel over war in Gaza

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/colombia-suspend-coal-exports-israel-war-gaza-110955452

Israel imports more than 50% of its coal from Colombia, according to the American Journal for Transportation, and uses much of it to feed its power plants.

The civilians killed in the operation were those Hamas was willing to sacrifice for its aims.

And like Ox, I don’t support Israel’s action in Gaza either.

You don’t see any contradiction in these two statements? You say you don’t support Israel’s action but you parrot their depraved justification of slaughter of civilians.