Funded cycle mechanics training for women, trans* and non-binary folk

I genuinely don’t understand the “anti” position here. It’s not like the creation of these courses is preventing them from attending a course themselves should they want to do one. Granting a additional gateway to a group that may need encouragement does not deny or otherwise restrict already established gateways. (ie it’s in addition to, rather than instead of) The aim is to attract a broader selection of the population into the same qualification.  I don’t understand the objection to that.

They are worried that in the future, straight white men will suffer the same injustices that LGBTQ+, trans*, BAME and female folk have dealt with forever.

Take stw
Where is the trans, non binary section ? Theres a main forum for ‘everyone’ but according to the vast number arguing on this topic, that cant be allowed.

There are certainly trans members who have left because of the behaviour of the white cis male majority of users.

Perhaps there should be a section/topic for minority groups to discuss cycling without us loud white cis males getting in the way. I’d certainly support that.

Thanks to all those who are responding very positively to this story, and also trying to enlighten others. As a female cyclist is really lovely to see.

Last week I went down to London to the Rapha event with Emily Chappell and Lael Wilcox. Though not woman only, it was very woman dominated (and to be honest, I think all woman at the ride on Friday morning (about 70 of us!) as the male group purposely rode separately to give us space). As a woman with 15 years cycling experience it was just overwhelmingly wonderful – speaking to so many amazing woman, hearing the awesome things they have done. Even with my experience it made me feel empowered to try/do more things. Plus I didn’t have to worry about get my legs pulled off – as it was all ‘we are very much here together’. Imagine you don’t have my experience or opportunities, but you want to try and get into the sport (riding, mechanics etc) – seeing other unrepresented groups and feeling part of a community of people like you, doing the same things, is incredibly powerful. It is the only way to disrupt the status quo and address the imbalance.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUzR-qZs41x/?utm_medium=copy_link

How about thinking about another marginalised group, disabled people? Why do we have a separate category of Olympics for them to compete in? By I Scoffs way of thinking we are discriminating by not allowing the able bodied to compete alongside them in the Paralympics.
Increasing participation for any minorities is surely a good thing and if in order to achieve this we have to offer them some additional ‘perks’ then more power to that.

That sounds like a great event @ahsat. I saw some photos on Instagram of a similar ride in the New Forest that looked great.

I find some of the attitudes on here astonishing – its not the 1950s any more

What is so threatening to you poor white men about others getting a hand up? Are you so threatened by this?

I mean, that fact you had to qualify that with “formally”.

It’s to avoid nebulous language.

It’s a strange phenomenon for sure. I’m an ‘unabashed alpha’, my girlfriend’s words, not mine, so with her view of me, this doesn’t cause my radar to blip in a negative way in the slightest. What’s to be concerned about?

This alone is going to do very little to the numbers in relation to fellas riding bike Vs everyone else, it is however going to carve out a little more space for some to feel comfortable and enjoy bikes in whatever capacity it brings them joy.

That’s basically what were talking about here, shitting on others enjoyment. All because those pesky LGBTQ+ bike nerds out there who need a little hand to enjoy it more might actually do that.

You can dress your ‘concern’ up anyway you like, but it is ultimately still a turd rolled in glitter, you miserable bastards.

It’s to avoid nebulous language.

Yet you use the word “discrimination” to label measures aimed at increasing inclusion.

Last week I went down to London to the Rapha event with Emily Chappell and Lael Wilcox.

Going slightly off tangent, I watched the recording of that last night, as I’m a big fan of the videos Lael puts out, but was really interested in Emily’s comment about the number of openly gay women racing endurance but not so many (any?) openly gay men. Not just an issue/non-issue in cycling though, of course.

The silent majority need to speak up more and slap down those still living in the dark ages, though that may be doing a disservice to the dark ages.

I just hope you are right in thinking that the silent majority are open-minded, I’m not so certain myself, sadly.

Thanks ahsat.

They are worried that in the future, straight white men will suffer the same injustices that LGBTQ+, trans*, BAME and female folk have dealt with forever.

I don’t think this is the case, actually. I think there are a lot of people who want to treat everyone on merit, and not see race, gender, orientation etc. Years ago I’d have thought the same thing. But it’s not enough – see the picture above with people watching the baseball game. The reasons why women or LGBTQ+ people may feel excluded from things are complex and deep seated, and until we unpick all this, right now, we need positive action which means events like these. You can still become a mechanic if you are straight white male, you’re not being blocked.

I have found a picture of @i_scoff_cake

@that-looks-sketchy:

Discrimination on the basis of gender identity is illegal in the UK. How can this particular discrimination be justified in law? Why can certain identities be discriminated against. I believe that this project is unlawful.

Well it would be, if it wasn’t for s158 of the Equality Act, which permits it. It wasn’t included in the legislation because the people drafting it thought it would be fun, its there because parliament specifically wanted to encourage this sort of activity.

Just in case you think s158 is some sort of new trend in discrimination law set up to impede cis white men in the 21st century or an accidental misunderstanding, the equivalent provisions existed in the Race Relations Act (first introduced in the 1960s), the Sex discrimination act (first introduced in the 1970s) and the Disability Discrimination act (1990s) so it seems like successive parliaments have considered its a good idea.

What is so threatening to you poor white men about others getting a hand up? Are you so threatened by this?

It’s because the implication is that a vast swathe of the population are born villains.

The reasons why women or LGBTQ+ people may feel excluded from things are complex and deep seated, and until we unpick all this, right now, we need positive action which means events like these.

If I was constantly told that one demographic were oppressors I’d want to avoid them too.

You don’t think what is telling them is their own experiences thus far?

@i_scoff_cake

I’m a bit confused by your point. Are you implying that they aren’t being oppressed, but think they are, because they are told they are being oppressed?

@spawnofyorkshire

Do I think that male bike mechanics conspire to exclude others from their ‘hierarchy of knowledge?

Do I think that male bike mechanics conspire to exclude others from their ‘hierarchy of knowledge?

Do you think that a male bike mechanic has never taken the piss out of, or made an unwanted advance at, or talked down to a female customer?

Discrimination doesn’t have to be a deliberate conspiracy to be real.

@molgrips

Perhaps, but the assertion is evidence-free. A few anecdotes don’t prove anything. We’ve all encountered asshole people.

That sounds like a great event @ahsat. I saw some photos on Instagram of a similar ride in the New Forest that looked great.

Oh yes, I would have loved to have stayed for that. It was New Forest Off-road Club’s 1-year anniversary. A perfect example of the power of woman/NB led activities to encourage others into cycling https://www.instagram.com/newforestoffroadclub/?hl=en

Going slightly off tangent, I watched the recording of that last night, as I’m a big fan of the videos Lael puts out, but was really interested in Emily’s comment about the number of openly gay women racing endurance but not so many (any?) openly gay men. Not just an issue/non-issue in cycling though, of course.

Yes this was a really interesting and important point. Several of us were discussing it the following morning at the Rapha breakfast. I don’t have the answers. My brother is a gay man, and would be an awesome cyclist (absolutely pulls my legs off), but can’t be bothered with the faff and far prefers the gym. But he is just one person with his own views.

Do you think that a male bike mechanic has never taken the piss out of, or made an unwanted advance at, or talked down to a female customer?

Yep! Been on the receiving end of that – lots! And in academia, where I am an Associate Prof. And in the street, getting my car serviced, at the climbing wall…. etc etc

@ahsat

The thing is that men also talk down to and take the piss out of other men. We don’t form some kind of holy brotherhood! I’ll grant you that men aren’t hit on as often, but we’re in danger of seeing any hint of a sexual advance as some kind of transgression by default. I don’t think that’s healthy.

A few anecdotes don’t prove anything.

What, you don’t believe there is any sexism?

The thing is that men also talk down to and take the piss out of other men.

Yes, of course they do, but as a man who listens to women I can assure you it’s nothing like on the same scale. Not even close.

Thing is – you’re asserting there isn’t a problem. And yet, there are millions of women and trans* people telling you there is a problem. Why don’t you believe them?

It’s because the implication is that a vast swathe of the population are born villains.

I have no idea how you reach that conclusion. Are you in the closet? Homophobia on your level often comes from the closet

I have no idea how you reach that conclusion. Are you in the closet? Homophobia on your level often comes from the closet

No idea what you’re talking about. Intersectionality asserts that white men are the oppressor class, i.e, born villains.

More and more in life I am reminded of the saying “there are none so blind as those who will not see”.

@i_scoff_cake How many times have you taken YOUR bike/car to be repaired which you are paying for, and the mechanic talked to your wife/gf about the work needed/done, solely because of your gender?

“oh boo hoo hoo. I’m a hard done by middle aged white man. It’s so unfair when anybody that isn’t exactly like me is given any of the advantages I’ve had in life”
Get over yourselfs boomers, the world has changed.

Intersectionality asserts that white men are the oppressor class, i.e, born villains.

No, I think you’ve misunderstood.

Society is the problem, not actual men. Well – some men are, they are the ones deliberately trying to perpetuate the status quo.

All that’s required is to listen to people and understand their concerns. That’s all. If you don’t do this then yes, you are part of the problem. Regardless of your gender and colour.

@ahsat Don’t you think that we’re in danger of raising a whole generation of women who just can’t interact with men because they view them as inherently strange and dangerous? One thing I’ve noticed over the years is that women who have brothers are much better at dealing with men. They respect them but don’t take them too seriously and they know how to assert themselves. Good advice in life.

Society is the problem, not actual men.

It’s always some great abstract process that’s to blame but it’s people who go to the gulag or get made an unperson.

go to the gulag

So much drama. What was it over again? More women learning (and then teaching) how to fix bikes? Get some perspective.

Given you don’t really read or listen to what I say, I’m going to only reply once more. I have a brother (see above), I never said I find the vast majority of men strange or dangerous (Christ I’ve hung out here for 12 years, mtb and work in a male dominated field!) but I have many many times not be considered equal or capable solely because of my gender (and trust me I’m pretty capable!). Therefore initiatives such as the one given at the start, provide a welcoming space for minorities to learn new skills.

Right, that’s it from me. I’m off to chat to my woman-led bike club 🙂

Y’know there’s something wrong when minorities learning new skills gets more flak than a Rapha breakfast! 😉

Seriously, this is a good news story. Less gulag and more dignity please.

Intersectionality does not assert that white men are an oppressor class. The definition of intersectionality is “the interconnected nature of social categorisations such as race, class, and gender, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage”.

Y’know there’s something wrong when minorities learning new skills gets more flak than a Rapha breakfast! 😉

Proper laughed at that. Another peak STW

It’s always some great abstract process that’s to blame but it’s people who go to the gulag or get made an unperson.

Really? I have to say, I rarely get any flak from feminists, trans people, gay people or women in general. I’d like to think it’s because I make an effort to try and understand the situation. Sometimes I get it wrong, they explain and I apologise.

If you are being criticised or ‘sent to the gulag’ perhaps it’s because you aren’t listening?