Funded cycle mechanics training for women, trans* and non-binary folk

Sadly not just on Facebook

Yes, unfortunately some take reading shit like this online as validation for such views and then spout it out of their mouths in conversation.

It seems to me this is just a case of helping out people who need it – a good thing, in my view. What next, will retirement homes be classed as ageist?

As @matt_outandabout says, good on STW for reporting on this. It’s always refreshing to hear some good news.

Why is this not a case of:

Pay for course
Learn
Apply for job

What am I missing?

@joshvegas & @reeksy spot on. @daffy totally agree, we (company I work for) love to “celebrate” diversity and inclusion internally but I have no idea what we actually do outside of the company. We make a lot of noise but do very little IMO.

Why is this not a case of:

Pay for course
Learn
Apply for job

What am I missing?

Because if you are the only person “like you” in a room, course, situation, whatever it can be really intimidating and put you off.

What am I missing?

The bit where you don’t get offered the job due to bias, either unconscious or conscious.

Just so we’re clear about this? The presence of even one man at this cycling workshop would cause objective ‘harm’ to the women, trans* and non-binary folk? How does that work?

The idea is, as I understand it, to provide funding to train the underrepresented groups indentified. By training them they a. Encourage a more inclusive industry. And b. Feed the need for tran* women and non binary staff to run the women, non binary and trans* workshops the coop provide.

So what benefits would the coop get from training people who don’t fit these definitions if they can’t then be placed in the workshops the coop runs.

So just to be clear. I don’t think you’ve quite grasped what they are trying to do. Train some people to run workshops for people who may feel excluded in normal conditions. Hopefully then gaining more confidence as numbers grow.

More people on bikes is good no?

I don’t think you’ve quite grasped what they are trying to do.

Perhaps because they haven’t expressed it succinctly, and regardless of the ends it doesn’t mean the means are either logical or appropriate necessarily?

Behind the cosy face of ‘improving’ representation, there are some extremely dodgy ideas lurking, but that goes for all this stuff.

I only asked that question seeking to expose these dodgy ideas, hence I probably won’t get a straight answer because my framing was unflattering.

Lifted straight from the link on the first post.

These newly qualified mechanics will then form the backbone of Broken Spoke’s work with women, trans* and non-binary folk; supporting Beryl’s Night (their free monthly workshop sessions for women, trans* and non-binary folk), engaging in the other community programmes in our workshop, and running outreach with the wider community in Oxford.

How much more succinctly can they put it?

What “dodgy ideas” ?

Behind the cosy face of ‘improving’ representation, there are some extremely dodgy ideas lurking, but that goes for all this stuff.

Go on, I’ll bite, what extremely dodgy ideas are lurking behind “all this stuff”?

How much more succinctly can they put it?

All that’s being said there is that in order to discriminate they must discriminate. Hardly getting to the bottom of things.

Is that it?

Go on, I’ll bite, what extremely dodgy ideas are lurking behind “all this stuff”?

Some dodgy post-modern ideas concerning the nature of power, knowledge and reality if you’re interested. That men (especially white men) form an oppressor class thanks to their place in the symbolic apparatus of cultural hegemony.

You read that into this scheme? It is actively trying to reach out to people… it is not blaming anyone for the current lack of diversity, it is just trying to do something about it. Would you rather sit back and argue about why nothing needs to be done about it? Carry on…

The dangers of scoffing_too_much_cake are plain to see…

Some dodgy post-modern ideas concerning the nature of power, knowledge and reality if you’re interested. That men (especially white men) form an oppressor class thanks to their place in the symbolic apparatus of cultural hegemony.

Alternatively, it’s just a way to get representation up amongst a user group that is almost invisibly none existent?

Here’s a real-life recent example, our cycling club set up a regular women’s ride a few years ago, and yes, a handful of grumpy old farts objected that they were excluded from them. There was and never had been any discrimination or exclusion on any club rides in the past yet despite that IIRC the gender split was something like 200:2 in the club. A few years on and the women’s ride is as big and sometimes bigger than the equivalent speed men’s club run, there’s a women’s TTT team and it undoubtedly contributed to hosting the IIRC largest-ever women’s field at the national Hillclimb championships.

It’s probably fair to say without the hard work of a handful of unsung heroes behind the scenes, and occasionally very vocally in front of them, that wouldn’t have happened and we’d have been stuck in the same status quo as most cycling clubs.

*they actually weren’t, they were just advertised as being lead by women, for women. But that was enough to send these anti-social-justice-warrior-social-justice-warriors into a spin. In fact there’s often a handful of male hangers on as it’s generally seen as the more social/non-dropping/shorter ride as well.

What is it that makes people respond negatively like this? “How dare they single out trans* and non-binary people for inclusion and exclude middle-aged white males like myself, who’ve never had any chances or opportunities in life?”…”This could’ve been the best chance for me to make something of myself, but they will only allow people who don’t even have a proper gender to do this course! How dare they?!”. I’m baffled and I’d love to know.

@thisisnotaspoon

In my own experience, women are put off club runs dominated by men because the rides are faster and more competitive.

From a different point of view, before cycling became bourgeois, riding a bike was something working-class people did because they were poor and it was generally as a means to get to work and back. Cycling was a low-status activity and many people still think like that. Mechanical skills were learning out of necessity and acquired as general ‘blue collar’ skills.

IIRC the article quotes some anecdotes about women having trouble with male mechanics as if that proves some general point. Well, who hasn’t!?

@hdesperatebicycle

Because the next step is to exclude white men from jobs and other resources.

You really think so? Holy shit.

You really think so? Holy shit.

Why do you think that is such a leap?

The logic of discrimination to ‘improve’ diversity is being accepted.

The day there are no jobs for “white men” in cycling might be a little way off, looking at how things look now. If we could get even close to half way there, and then give up, that’ll do me.

In my own experience

Apologies didn’t realize we were all mansplaining this to you.

Why are you so angry about a course being run for your benefit?

@thisisnotaspoon

You mean why am I worried about lending support to a logic of discrimination against people like me?

I say in my own experiences because I’ve heard women moan about group rides dominated by men going too fast. When paces pick up it is rarely women who need to ‘compete’ to prove themselves too.

Because the next step is to exclude white men from jobs and other resources.

This isn’t the problem. It’s that some white men won’t be a shoe-in for jobs they normally would’ve been, because another demographic now has a fair chance.

The type of white man whining about this tends to be the one scared of the level playing field.

@kelvin

Here’s a question. Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?

Sorry, but this is just too dull to bother with on a Saturday night in 2021. Go and enjoy what’s left of your weekend. You don’t have to catch up with the changing world, just stay in the 1970s, we’re all quite happy with you doing that.

Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?

I’ve heard women moan about group rides dominated by men

You’re so close to self-awareness.

Here’s a question. Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?

All the women, overweight and unfit people of both sexes, BAME riders and, indeed, quite a few LGBT people who used to come out on the social rides I organised because they felt so intimidated by clubs dominated by fast white men that they felt they’d never fit in and didn’t dare try.

And because I gave them a safe space to start their cycling experience, and was connected to a club that was willing to offer them the next step up, there’s now a club with much higher female representation than the BC average (but still nowhere near high enough), has got an openly gay rider smashing it up at regional and national races, has riders who’ve turned round their type 2 diabetes diagnosis, and reduced their asthma medication and dozens of other success stories.

All because someone made an effort to provide a route for them to try cycling, to grow to love cycling, and to develop the confidence and belief that they could fit into a cycle club still mainly white and male.

And I’m really pleased for you that you’ve never had to deal with those real and perceived barriers. But don’t you dare look down your nose at the people who have to overcome them, or those that offer them the support and routes to do so.

@i_scoff_cake

Can I ask if the reverse was true?

What if your chosen job had 247:1 ratio of people unlike you : you.

What it every time you walked into a room you were the only one like you in that room?

What if the recruitment, terms, conditions and culture of that job made it harder for you, the one out of 247?

What if the users of the service also had ingrained concern about you working there, and so put in 5x more complaints and gossiped about you (and not in a nice way?).

Would you feel like a bit of extra support, training for your colleagues and effort to change culture was worthwhile?

@i_scoff_cake
As a white woman, most cyclists being white men harms me. Or harmed me because I don’t ride anymore. But when I did, I usually rode on my own.
That’s because the only other option was an organised group ride where someone leads and that never really appealed to me.
In one of the groups I tried, the guys were much fitter, faster, more experienced and more competitive than me. And they were always going to be to some extent at least. They ended up letting me know that I wasn’t good enough to ride with them and fair enough, I wasn’t. I also wasn’t having much fun being at the back of the group and just before I would reach the summit of the hill where they were all waiting, they would ride off just before I got there. It wasn’t much fun for them waiting either.
So I started going on my own.
This meant I didn’t progress as much as I could have done which I sometimes feel a bit sad about.
It also meant when I went on mtb holidays I went on my own. I had one brilliant experience with The White Room. Luckily one other woman who had come with her bf was there too and we rode together all week. One of the men couldn’t understand how I had come on my own and didn’t have any riding friends and called me Billy No Mates all week. The following year I went on a trip with another company and it was a total disaster. The guys were head and shoulders above me in terms of riding ability and I actually missed the last two days riding as it was no fun at all.
I did meet one guy just out on the trails in the UK and we rode together some times. But then he went to Morzine and I would have loved to have gone too but he didn’t invite me because it was a “lads’ holiday”.
And my friend at the time started riding but she thought she could have a skinful the night before and be good for a day’s riding.

I can’t say any of the above is the worst thing that’s ever happened to me. I can’t say I didn’t enjoy riding on my own because I did. But it would have been nice to have a few more people to go with at times. What it did mean though is that i was always something of an outsider in the sport.
I’m sure if I’d have lived somewhere more mtb-y I would have found riding companions but I lived in London at the time and rode in the Surrey Hills mostly and I really struggled to find anyone who was committed (as I was then) but also at a similar level.

As I said, I’m a white woman. Although not strictly part of a minority group, being a woman often feels like that, but I can only imagine how excluded other minorities can sometimes feel. Perhaps you could try to do the same.

All the women, overweight and unfit people of both sexes, BAME riders and, indeed, quite a few LGBT people who used to come out on the social rides I organised because they felt so intimidated by clubs dominated by fast white men that they felt they’d never fit in and didn’t dare try.

The problem is that you’re conflating competitive spirit and fitness with identity.

Presumably, BAME or gay people don’t ever want to ride fast, for example? Only those nasty white men? And all white men are ultra-fit and competative?

What if your chosen job had 247:1 ratio of people unlike you : you.

There is only one me at work. The ultimate minority is one.

You’re so close to self-awareness.

It’s got nothing to do with gender identity, however, but fitness, as I said.

You’re ducking the question.

What if your industry meant you were the only white male in the room, of 247?

What if your industry meant you were the only white male in the room, of 247?

That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.

It is about fitness to some extent but there are barriers in place to some people becoming fit or, in the case of this scheme, knowledgeable/competent and any initiative that can help with these has to be a good thing.
Try stop being so defensive and try using a bit of empathy.

OMG, I’m off to get me some cake… You don’t seem to be able to follow the first rule.

That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.

And (making an assumption about your ethnicity based on your previous comments) were there places you wouldn’t have ridden a bike through because it might have been perceived as dangerous to you to be the odd one out?