Forks… Are we being brainwashed or not?

Jimsmith,
I’m not sure of your specified market (I know nothing of that area) but I do think its a good idea.

I’d have also thought that if someone could supply reasonably priced uppers, maybe CNC crowns a bit like the old Pace ones, you could supply the secondhand market for ages as it seems to be these that go first

The problem is with fox, even after servicing mine 5 times in a year (lowers, once uppers/dampr as well), i still got wear on stanchions. Changed seals too.

The reality is that Fox forks often wear themselves to death if you don’t follow the service routine, while Rock Shox just keep on going.

oh no, not this again….

I always like to wade in to these threads with some balance, out of our regular riding group the ONLY forks to have suffered stanchion wear are Rockshox, to be specific a Pike, a Sektor and a Reba.

Where as all the Fox forks (some dating back to 2004) are still going strong with no problems.

All makes can suffer from it in the right circumstances.

Less then 10 years ago I’d have looked in to what Pace, Fox, Manitou, Marzocchi, RS, etc were selling before deciding what to get and all these were considered and available.

But at that time RockShox were pretty awful – the Psylo and Duke marked their first steps back from the edge of rubbishness.

Thing is, they moved the game on so far, with Revs and Rebas, that others have struggled to keep pace. A couple of years ago you’d struggle to recommend Marzocchis, not because they were rubbish, but because RS were so good. Manitou kinda haven’t produced any big name forks for a while, and their last reputation was for slightly twangy forks (rightly or wrongly).

Plus a lot of it is marketing, really. SRAM and Fox are undoubtedly in our line of sight much more, whether through ads, being in-stores or featured on pro bikes.

speed lube oil every 25 hours

Speed lube is ridiculously easy though – from what I remember with my Totems you don’t even have to take the fork apart.

First ever pair of sus forks came on a bike I bought when I got back in to biking when I was 25. A pair of Manitou super black airs. They were crap

I ditched them for some Pace RC 40’s which were superb, I then changed my frame and wanted more travel so got some Pace RC41’s which were even better.

When DT Swiss took over Pace forks I got a pair of XMM 150’s. they have to be the best forks ever made IMO!

2 years ago I got a Ti HT which came with some Fox forks on it, they were dire in comparison to the DT Swiss, so I ditched them and have XMM 140’s on it.

I will never buy another brand of suspension fork. Nothing comes close

Thing is, they moved the game on so far, with Revs and Rebas, that others have struggled to keep pace.

Thing is, I just don’t like how they feel so don’t think they’re all that. I much prefered the Fox I had to the Revs.

I ditched them for some Pace RC 40’s

so I ditched them and have XMM 140’s on it.

Same as me really. I guess it’s the fact that I rate my DT’s (and the RC40’s I had in the past) so highly where as so few other people do that got me thinking. I need a pair of forks for a build so wondered if it was worth casting the net. Fancy some Magura’s.

Fact is though, and the reason for the brainwashing comment is that if money was no object I’d probably get Fox, even though the ones I’ve had are no better then the DT’s and even though I’ve had a set turn to mince. 😕

The Fox service schedule gets me. Do they /really/ need to be done that often?

No. But it’s better that you do.

I don’t get this Fox is crap thing. They work great. When they wear out, you can buy replacement parts reasonably.

I wore a set of Lyriks out. The price for a new CSU was more than double what Fox were asking. And more than I paid for the fork new.

X-Fusion Forks look very nice. Dirt cheap and when you pick a set up you can tell why. The heaviest forks I’ve ever held in my hand. They should last until the end of time…

IMHO the fox thing is that the seals are quite loose (close to exact tolerance) from new hence the 20hr service interval.
compare this to say marzocchi (pre relocation to SE asia) which had a bed in period of 20 hrs for the seals to loosen up as they were basically really tight.
this makes the fox s really plush on the shop floor but means the seals wear quite quick and if you dont replace them in time the possibility for ingress of crud is high and the stanchions get worn easially.
thats my experience anyway…

Isn’t it a lot to do with aesthetics? Fox have got the look right, whereas the others look dull (even cheap?).
Sad to say, it definitely sways me towards Fox. (Aside from the fact that they do work brilliantly.)

I’m a bit of a Magura convert here, i bought some Thor Lift Select at christmas for my 5 spot and they are the lightest, plushest forks i have tried. The double arch design definately makes them stiffer.

Had revs before and although they were great the dual air just annoyed me along with the being pretty flexy when i was chucking the bike down some techy stuff.

Each to their own really, i honestly dont care what anyone else rides or what they have on their bike but i am very glad i took a chance with the thors.

All forks, now matter how good or expensive they are, work the same (poorly) if they aren’t serviced and/or poorly set-up.

IME, all forks (mid-high end) i’ve tried in the last couple of years, are all the same (very good) if setup correctly and serviced regularly.

I see a theme here.

There is definitely brain washing in effect here though, typical customer shopping for forks “i want fox because they’re the best, aren’t they”.

Check and lube seals every 15 hours, change oil and float fluid every 30 hours for Fox. Nothing else mentioned.

Oil change every 30h seems excessive. People reckon Lefties need a lot of service, but they aren’t that bad.

Andy

Market forces innit 😉

Product wise there are probably no real stinkers out there like there used to be (except at the low end). Some feel better than others and have features or functions which riders may prefer the sound or feel of… mostly I think we like what we know and thats why market share is so important… but in reality it only takes a ride or two on something new to adapt.

Fox charge what people will pay… the perfect capitalist way is to charge a little more than people want to pay which makes the item “aspirational”… this gives you a big budget for marketing/sponsoring/advertising; and if you have product left over at the end of the year you drop the price in a “sale” and those people who want the item but can’t or won’t buy at full price may be tempted to grab a “bargain” and clear your shelves ready for next years stock. This is what Fox and Mojo do very well controlling the UK market with aspirational product and loads of marketing.

One fly in this ointment is the “OEM” or “grey” market whereby stuff is sold to somebody destined for one place but actually ends up for sale and sold somewhere else. In this way the control of the price of the item is lost as if there are enough grey market items available you have to drop your main market price if you want any sales… this is where RockShox seem to be. They would love to get the full price they quote sometimes which is nearly the same as Fox… but their stuff is always available at a discount somewhere so they seem to have dropped the price to that slightly lower level. Pushing for market share is eroding the ability to change a high premium and be fully “aspirational”.

Marzocchi get some OEM stuff at the lower end which unfortunately is not the best product and gets them a bit of a bad reputation. The good stuff seems to be available in limited quantity so they can keep the after market prices high.

Magura and DT are only really in the aftermarket game at the moment so have to have a good enough product to stand up for itself… getting buyers who don’t want products from the other manufacturers… niche mongers or people who value the “features” only available on these products… or bargain hunters on last years product 😉 .

Manitou seem to be fighting for any sales they can get. I used to like Manitou and if they had a produst which suited me I would probably give them a whirl for nostalgic reasons (I loved my Travis TPC fork).

Not sure where X-Fusion will go. If the product is great they should be able to make dents in top end sales through reviews and pricing below Fox/RS. This won’t bring big profits until they make dents in the OEM market where big product share and shifting huge numbers of units kicks in. It will be interesting to see who suffers as X-Fusion tries to take a bigger slice of the market… which might eventually erode the higher price they can change for the top end stuff? Perhaps it’s all calculated so for a few years they might take a hit on pricing and profits to get market share and awareness of product?

Obviously other stuff is available and I just made all that ^ up; it’s an opinion. Buy and ride what you want for the reasons you see fit.

My experience of forks over the last 20 years has shown me that all company’s make good & bad forks its just knowing which year & model works (which makes buying new forks difficult unless you buy last years when they sell them off) My fox 36’s were among the worst I’ve owned & manitou nixon elites were one of the best. But according to everyone on forums that should be the other way round. So all I can say is good luck choosing Your gonna need it!

Best forks I’ve had are my ‘top of the range’ Suntour Durolux forks. They’ve been ace for me. They cost me £250 and massively outperformed the pikes I had previously. Fox forks are a rip off! I’d far rather spend the £800 on a weeks mountain bike holiday somewhere hot!

DT Swiss are phenomenally expensive and have no OEM share

Ermm you are quite wrong in both cases. An EXM 150 retails at way less than a talas 150 or even a float

Not too long ago, top of the line Fox forks retailed for no more than £550.

We’re looking at double that nowadays, TBH I have massive reservations at paying that much for a set of forks. I feel cheated.

I’ve three sets of Pikes, a set of Revelations and a set of Wotans on my bikes. I’ve had an education with getting my Wotans set up properly, but after playing with oil weights I’ve got them pretty much where I want them. Seal kits aren’t massively expensive, so I can service them with off the shelf tools. And they cost me £250 secondhand.

My Revelations were £300ish brand new. They’ve been truly excellent, as have my 2006 Pikes which still see service on my hardtail today.

I’m sure that a set of Kashima 160 Floats will feel amazing – but not £900 worth of amazing.

The reality is that Fox forks often wear themselves to death if you don’t follow the service routine, while Rock Shox just keep on going.

My reality is the exact opposite.

Never serviced my 36 Vans, just spray with Fork Juice regularly, and only had them professionally serviced once in about 3 years – they’re absolutely fine and feel great.

My Pike stanchions coating wore down horribly and started leaking oil within a year.

Manitou were never very good

Not quite true… Manitou forks have been good – particularly in the sector we would think of as trail forks. Their Mach 5, original SX & FS fork series and X-Verts all offered great performance, good weight and were reasonably priced for the time – although i did use the top model of each of these though. I had a mate who used to rave about his MARS xc race fork as well. I think they went downhill when they brought out the Minute and Nixon forks. One of those models when originally launched had to have a travel reduction kit fitted to avoid crown/tyre impact!

Really? My Pikes are seven years and counting…no stanchion wear, they feel like new and I have the lowers off once a year if they’re lucky. I’d say that’s pretty darned reliable.

I do have experience with unreliable forks – I ran a set of RC40s for a year. The damping was lovely, but the travel adjust had a mind of its’ own, the seals were leaky, bits fell off and they were not as stiff as claimed.

Pikes – less than a year old. Same on both sides. I do wonder if the NeoGuard had something to do with it though.

Lots of others with the same problem on RS forks here:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rs-pike-stanchion-wear

IIRC LoCo said the failure rate for Fox forks was no higher than any other make, but it’s become one of those INTERNET FACTS that Fox forks are rubbish. They are certainly **** expensive now though – but then RS forks aren’t exactly cheap either.

I wouldn’t say it’s an ‘internet fact’ about Fox. Having spent far too much time over the last few years looking at second hand forks the % amount of duff Fox are far higher then others. I can’t present figures but if I could be bothered to to a lengthey survey I’m sure this would be backed up.

PACE RC36’s are the most reliable (and best performing) forks I have used. Almost zero maintenance on them.

Last couple of bikes have come with Fox, and they don’t ride as well.

geetee1972 – Member

OK so they don’t have that lovely looking Kashima coating but interestingly some research was done by RS that says break away force is lower when the surface is slightly pitted (microscopically) as it allows oil to sit in the pits and act as a lubricant.

That’s EXACTLY what Kashima is – Fox just happen to do theirs in a shiny gold colour.

Still on a pair of 2001 Marzocchi Z3. I got them 2nd hand in 2004 and they’ve been awesome. An occasional (2 since I got them!)service and that’s it.

I wouldn’t say it’s an ‘internet fact’ about Fox. Having spent far too much time over the last few years looking at second hand forks the % amount of duff Fox are far higher then others. I can’t present figures but if I could be bothered to to a lengthey survey I’m sure this would be backed up.

Confirmation bias?

Forks are massively overpriced and the markets buyers keep paying, several forks over the years

Rockshox pyslos/pikes/revs……..all okay
Maz…several z1s/z2s all great till am1 oh dear….still the best most reliable workable forks are the z1s
Pace..several pairs great when they worked 50% chance
Magura and Rond, original ronds who sold to magura, had thors and durins, thors dived like billy ho…..durins been back undre warrenty.
Manitous some 29er 100mm travel things been very good
Fox several but 36 talas been the best fork i have had,

so out of those
Fox/Maz/probably DT i would buy again.
But yes being brainwashed by newer lighter fancier tricksy forks

For me a oil damped coil fork with 150mm travel and reduction for climbing weighg less than 4.5 lbs would be brilliant

One leg is all the fork you need.

indeed had a lefty………….actually very good

My 36’s are going strong…2005 forks in the original stanchions with no sign of wear. Not sure when they were last serviced, but they’ll be off to J Tech next month.

I do pop the seals up every now and then and drop some float fluid on the dust seals.

As far as fork feel goes, I’m not totally sold on the new Rock Shox. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but they feel artificial somehow. My Fox feel pretty good and are light and stiff, but notnothing beats my old 66’s for being smooth and supple. I’d love a pair of 55 rc3’s but they’re crazy money. My next forks are most likely to be X Fusion I think.

Re: Fox being expensive, they are if you pay report but there are a ton of good deals out there.

Rockshox make some great forks also and I’d like to see something like the Pepsi challenge where various forks are ridden blind (so to speak, not talking literally!) to see if people fan really tell the difference.

Yes, I know there are issues with set ups being equal etc etc – more of a hypothetical point.

The other manufacturers make some great forks as well and X Fusion in particular seem to making some headway. Takes time though to build up some market momentum.

Cheers

Danny B

Interesting thread. As someone that came from road cycling about 8 years ago into MTB, I have been staggered at the number of MTB componenents that are simply not fit for the purpose of getting covered in mud and water. Alloy chain rings that wear like butter, max BB bearings and hubs without seals that seize after their first submersion and freehubs that cannot be dismantled for cleaning. Fox forks are also a bit of a doozy. They do provide a wonderful feel and my first pair of 100RL’s went years without a service, but Mojo could not get the lockout to work to spec when I returned them for a full service. They were stolen and I now have a pair of 100RLC’s that were spitting oil all over the shop that I’ve just had Enduro seals fitted. I’ll see how they get on, but if they do screw up on me again, I’ll be giving X-Fusion Velvet 120’s a go next. I think that trading standards possibly might have something to say about a £700 pair of bicyle forks that require that amount of reccomended servicing to stay in warranty, but I can’t ask as I’ve never bought a pair new.