Forget tuition fees, how expensive is Diesel now

Molgrips – yes easily but it would take a generation or more to make the shift – it cannot be done overnight. It took us 60 years to get here from a situation where most folk lived within easy reach of their work to the mass commuting now.

things are sooo different now, and we could never go back to how it was. Work practices have evolved and changed. A lot of people have jobs BECAUSE of cars.

TJ, you talk about choice, its not always about choice and never as clear cut as how you make out. For some reason the stance you take on this subject winds me up.

TJ, at the present the alterntives are terrible though.
Public transport needs to be run as a public service rather then a profit generating business, before the personal car can be disposed of.

you still don’t see it. over a generation – attitudes change – think of the difference between transport in the 50s and now

Again, what rubbish, in the 50’s would you have been sayng that we should stick to the horse and cart?

A link to a lefty website full of moaning and bleating and not a SINGLE suggestion for how to solve anything?

I’ll pass on that one thanks.

Oh and no “proof” whatsoever.

Hey who needs facts when you’ve got TJ’s opinions?

Public transport needs to be run as a public service rather then a profit generating business, before the personal car can be disposed of.

It would still never be sustainable to supply good public transport to the whole of the UK. The only real answer is alternative fuel vehicles for the masses.

Moilgrips – you still don’t see it. over a generation – attitudes change – think of the difference between transport in the 50s and now?

Hey, easy there tiger! I’m not having a go at you, so leave out the criticism of my mental abilities please!

I am looking for discussion on the subject. Like for instance how to help people change their attitudes. I was merely posting a list of the major obstacles as I see them as a starting point.. I don’t think that deserves an insult. I very much agree with you about car use in general, like I say.

Over a generation or more it is easy to do this – make private motoring more expensive

That’s the simplest solution, and the one with the most flaws. For a start, it penalises people who genuinely need to use cars, and it would have a big negative impact on many people’s quality of life (this is important still). Would you take a trip to Glentress or Afan if it cost £50-100 in fuel? Should travelling for leisure be discouraged this way?

Public transport can only go so far – it relies on population density and likely traveller density to be economically feasible (and by that I don’t mean profitable).

The way I see it, cars should be available for people, but what we don’t need is people spending half their lives in the damn things as now.

Oh and I work from home – the ultimate example of not relying on a car.
Molgrips, preacher of greeness has a very large commute and relies on extremely resource heavy hotels. He also flies a lot. No pious is going to offset that sort of giant footprint.

Christ alive.

You’ve got a twisted brain Mat.

I don’t “preach”.

I point things out.

We all need to try and cut down. I try to cut down but I don’t always succeed. What’s your point? You just having a personal dig? Or am I wrong about needing to cut down?

True, Mol, it’s an absolutely crazy situation at present, and there is no simple answer.

si_progressivebikes – Member

things are sooo different now, and we could never go back to how it was…

wanna bet?

peak oil was 2006.

world population blah blah blah, oil production blah blah blah,

Jeepers – the thread gets resurrected after a week and immediately disappears up it’s own backside again.

Yes some people Choose to drive when they don’t have to. I chose to drive to a decent ride rather than cycle out of the door. Equally, most of my driving is to do with my job (a vet) – I challenge anyone to find me a way to do my job without a car.
Taking a different view, I don’t have kids – that’s got to reduce my carbon footprint by a huge amount AND I subsidise families everywhere via my taxes. Unfair?

Ok, so that’s maybe a little off topic but so’s all this ranting about non-drivers subsidising drivers.
The OP is still a valid point – rightly or wrongly fuel prices are rising at an alarming rate, and will continue to, more via taxes than true costs as it’s a politically easy resource to milk.

Let’s move on to suggestions.

First step for me would be to introduce a tax break for companies and individuals who work at home.

wanna bet?

I’ll wager that we don’t go back to how it was in the 50’s and that we find an alternative given time, and it wont be public transport

I am one of those petrolheads – I love cars. However, I can see the arguments on both sides and I think too many people use cars too much of the time.

It would be far less annoying if the money from these “green” taxes, ‘scuse me while I laugh, was actually used to subsidise public transport. I asked Nick Clegg about that too, while I was writing, and basically his was not to woo people out of cars by a cheap public transport alternative, oh no, the idea is to price people out of cars and keep public transport prices the same/higher. That’s bloody annoying.

It’s not as simple as saying ‘Live near your job’, that’s just not realistic these days with our modern expectations and the way things are farmed/built/supplied/sold. Should we go back to the underpaid country bumpkin leaning on the farm gate sucking a straw and tugging his forelock at rich folk (passing in their cars) who can afford to live in town and thus work there for high wages? No, clearly not, and people do live in the country, far from their job (sometimes) and we can’t say they shouldn’t.

The people who make the policies have company (government) cars, high salaries and a fuel allowance. The people who pay for the policies are at the other end of the earnings scale and it hurts.

I shall look at those links when I get back from the launderette/shopping (travelling by car!)

molgrips – Member

Let’s move on to suggestions.

ok, how about a tax efficient scheme for purchasing bicycles, in the hope that some of them get used for ‘transport’ rather than leisure.

oh…

Subsidise public transport. Non profit making yet, as Mol suggests economically viable. Routes that could make profit ofset not so popuar routes.

TJ – I lived in rural norfolk for most of my teenage years, my family have lived there for generations (i dont have 6 toes either….). Up untill i was about 12 (about 20 years ago) we did not have a car, we had no need. However, the need became more apparent when it was proving more and more difficult to get the day to day things, thanks to the gradual erosion of local amenities (butchers, bakers, etc) and a transport system to connect them. The current situation is that the local shops are now 9 miles away, with a bus service that runs a bus to the village once at 8 in the morning and once more at 5ish in the evening (might be a bit later). He tried to ride a bike there some years ago, however arthritic joints make holding on to the bars painful/dangerous and he gave up.

Now, your right he could move closer to the local services, but he cant afford too as the prices of housing around the amenities is disproportionate to the rest of the area.

I have no love for cars, generally think the time spent in them is dead time and commute some 30 miles a day by bike, but for many they essential, having lived in Londaon for a while i was amazed at the choice of transport options, but equally puzzeled by many residents opinion that public transport is just as good in the rurla areas (with the exception of the tube obviously). It just isn’t.

Mol – if you call someone an idiot, you can expect them to answer back. Or don’t you realise that?

And you constantly preach – you jump on every 4×4 thread, you attack every fast car thread, etc, etc. If you worked from home, had no cars and never flew then maybe your arguments would carry a little more weight?

However your first suggestion for what to do is a very good one.

First step for me would be to introduce a tax break for companies and individuals who work at home.

I don’t think tax incentives work, ut it might be part of the solutuion.

IMO we will all use cars until they are too expensive to do so and or a viable alternative is found. A viable alternative won’t be easily available until oil use starts to slow.

just carry on as we are.

oil is running out, prices* will rise, behaviour will change.

(*oil, transport, food, clothes, more or less everything)

if you believe the saudi’s and the americans**, there are about 3trillion barrels of oil left to pump out of the ground, we’re using 80million barrels a day, that’s 100 years of consumption left.

(**and they’re totally lying)

almost everyone at my work has a lift-sharing arrangement with a friend or 2, attitude/behaviour is already changing.

i’m an optimist, i’m sure we’ll find most of it fairly painless.

rememebers why he avoids car threads and what an utter utter swear word that there surf mnat is – how on earth can you work in PR when you present yourself as such a charmless fop on here?

So any proof for these bold claims?

No, I thought not

Right back at you girlfriend re everyone needing one in a rural community – Come on you are in PR a bit of BS should be easy for you go on mat Spin for us please.

Mol – if you call someone an idiot, you can expect them to answer back. Or don’t you realise that?

Sure, you can call me an idiot back. But you need rational grounds I’d have thought.

And you constantly preach – you jump on every 4×4 thread, you attack every fast car thread, etc, etc. If you worked from home, had no cars and never flew then maybe your arguments would carry a little more weight?

Does it matter what I do? I’m still right, aren’t I? The thing is – this just is not about me or you personally. It’s what we all need to do.

I don’t think tax incentives work, ut it might be part of the solutuion.

That’s why I said ‘a first step’ not ‘the only thing required for a complete and effective solution’ 🙂

Second step – nationalise public transport. All of it.

Junkyard – i gave an example above, admittedly im not a “charmless fop” though

It’s too late now anyway, but, we could just make fewer journeys by car.

I think ‘green’ people have frightened ‘non green’ to an extent, by suggesting that they cycle resolutely on in the teeth of a gale, laden down with shopping, in the dark, frozen, the idea lacks appeal!

How about starting by leaving the car at home on a nice day, for a short journey? Just do a couple of trips by foot/bike a week if you can, encourage your partner/children to do the same.

Oh, just looked at the links TJ, I find Monbiot is initially compelling but insubstantial on closer inspection, so the exchequer receives £x per year directly from the motorist and ‘may’ pay £x+ to the NHS in lung damage, but how much indirectly from higher productivity? Too vague.

Gosh, I really must go to the launderette. I’ll come back later.

clong 8)
Missed it and have just read it
As I said it is easier with a car but not impossible – that not impossible may mean quite difficult – but not having a car is not like not having food,water ,warnth etc . It can be a big pain in the rear and very difficult but not life threatening

“Again, what rubbish, in the 50’s would you have been sayng that we should stick to the horse and cart?”

The future is rarely like the present but more so.

Reducing car use is not going backwards. You can not keep on having more people having more cars travelling more.

You can not keep on having more people having more cars travelling more.

Tell that to the Chinese and Indians

Junkyard – you could say that about many things, clothes for example. You don’t need clothes to keep warm, but try and live without them….

Mind you, living near the fens there appear to be a few people that have adopted just that kind of lifestyle.

The plus side is the amout of daily mail readers that would implode through indignant rage.

Karinofnine – Member

“Why do people bash car drivers but not folk who live in great big (use lots of resources to heat) look-at-how-much=money-I-earn houses? and folk who crank up the heating so’s they can wear a t shirt indoors in the winter? Why aren’t they criticised?”

They are. Just not in threads about the price of diesel.

In fact most people need a car. Oh how the naive and self righteous make me giggle.

Let’s admit it shall we oh car bashers – you all live in cities, you all have no idea.

Over 80% of the UK population live in urban areas. Of those 80%, probbly around 90% don’t ultimately ‘need’ a car. They just have them because they can. They will then find any excuse to justify having one.

The actual number of people who ‘need’ cars in the UK is pretty low really.

It’s not about being ‘sanctimonious’ or ‘self-righteous’, it’s about taking responsibility for our actions, and collectively looking at ways we can reduce our consumption of precious resources. Owning a car just because you feel you ‘need’ it is simply selfish. For the majority of urban dwellers at least, a car is a luxury, nothing else.

We’re all hypocrites in some way or another. I have my heating on probably higher than I ‘need’, because I want to feel comfortable. I concede that’s a luxury. Generally though, as I don’t drive, am very careful with my energy use otherwise, cycle where I can, use public transport etc, don’t fly around the World every year, look after my clothes, bikes, other stuff etc so that I don’t replace things needlessly all the time, don’t have tellies on all over the house and that, I probbly have a much smaller carbon footprint than a lot of people in the UK. And if everyone did similar to me, then we’d save an awful lot of energy and resources.

But then, if we all lived in mud huts and caves, we’d save even more.

So we need a compromise, but one which suits people’s needs, rather than their wants.

I’m offsetting my excessive carbon output with your savings Fred
So please keep up the good work, it’s appreciated

For the majority of urban dwellers at least, a car is a luxury, nothing else.

Right. So how much luxury are we allowed? This really is the big question.

Clong – Member

TJ – I lived in rural norfolk …………

I fully accept and understand that that is what has happened. What I want is policies to reverse this trend over a similar time period.

It cannot be reversed overnight. It could in a generation. I will have to in 2 generations.

How would you encourage such reversal?

Elfinsafety – Member
…I probbly have a much smaller carbon footprint than a lot of people in the UK. And if everyone did similar to me, then we’d save an awful lot of energy and resources…

you’re consumption of energy and resources is WAAAAY above average, if everyone did similar to you we’d still be using too much.

It’s not about being ‘sanctimonious’ or ‘self-righteous’ … if everyone did similar to me, then we’d save an awful lot of energy and resources.

you sir, are hilarious! – well done!

Molgrips. I have said it a zillion times.

slowly rack up the cost of motoring over a 25 year span. This makes commuting less viable. Its commuters that kill local services as they buy the houses but don’t use the services and they push up the price of rural housing. Meaning in many parts a two way commuter – rural workers live in the towns and commute to the countryside / villages and urban workers go the other way.

Public transport can be subsidised with the money raised and as private motoring costs rise it also becomes more viable

As transport costs rise and customer base rises ( less commuters) local shops become more viable.

Our way of living has changed massivly in the last 50 years – it will have to do so again in the next 50. We simply cannot afford to use all this energy shifting folk around.

my parents live in the middle of nowhere, just past the back of beyond.
(they consider pickering to be a large busy metropolis)

life without a car really would be quite tricky.

i’m very curious to see what happens to these places as it becomes increasingly hard to manage with rising fuel costs / reduced travel

It’ll evolve in whichever way all on it’s own anyway, just like it’s always done, so just do your own thing & sit back & let it

exactly – good point, well put.

as i said, i’m just curious to see what will happen – i’m not worried about it, just curious.

slowly rack up the cost of motoring over a 25 year span

I don’t think that’d be good.

The distribution of jobs and work is not the same as the distribution of people. To make that the case, most people would have to live in a few ginormous cities.

It would also prevent people from enjoying quality leisure time. It’d be like the 1920s again with people staying in their home town all their lives apart from two weeks at the seaside once a year.

I’ll not be voting for you in the next election.