Fire Engineer quote for assessing building plans

I’m trying to figure out if a quote I’ve got to assess some building plans for fire safety are reasonable and what we should look to get done. If anyone else has any experience in this area, then I’d be really grateful for your opinions.

The work being done is to:
– convert ground floor split into lounge and kitchen diner into a semi open plan kitchen
– extend into the garden
– and an attic conversion
All of this is in a 2 floor 3 bedroom house.

The quote I’ve got covers inspecting the architect’s plans and feeding back on what measures need to be taken (i.e: no site visits, no invasive surveys). I’ve no doubt it takes some skill to assess it.

I’m just wondering how reasonable the amount quoted for the work is, seeing as it’s purely a paper exercise. The total quoted is nearly £1700.

The architect has suggested we will need to add a mist system and a smoke break where the stairs meet the kitchen, and a fire door for the new stairs leading to the converted room. It sounds like what needs to be done is well known up front, so is the amount of hours we’re being charged for to come up with the assessment a fair one? Costs are £150 per hour, so that works out to around 11 hours of work to come up with the assessment.

If it’s not, then what do you reckon is reasonable, and how would you go about finding another engineer? Are there any professional bodies I should be looking at for a directory of people? Would it be cheaper to find someone operating out of a different area?

That does sound expensive for a house extension. It’s all known stuff and well documented: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200135/approved_documents/63/part_b_-_fire_safety

Who is requiring the report? You just need to follow the approved documents to meet bundling regs

Institute of fire engineers is the chartering body.

Ivm kinda surprised you need one for what sounds like a normal domestic building. I’ve experienced the need when converting a property into a business downstairs and domestic upstairs (worked on project rather than managed it and the clients (family members) went about the entire thing the wrong way)

The issue at the minute is professional indemnity for fire safety work is extremely expensive in the post Grenfell age. That will be a significant chunk of the cost of assessment. No idea if it’s reasonable or not though I’m afraid, why not get a few quotations to see what the market rates are like?

In a previous life I spent a few years fitting domestic sprinkler systems to properties all over the South West and in most cases the system overcame the other fire suppression requirements. Might be worth contacting an installer first.

That does sound expensive for a house extension. It’s all known stuff and well documented: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200135/approved_documents/63/part_b_-_fire_safety

Who is requiring the report? You just need to follow the approved documents to meet building regs

+1
When we did ours a few years back the architect knew what hew needed to do regarding fire breaks and materials, and the electrician knew what needed doing regarding fire detection.
The building inspector had a quick walk around at the end and signed it off.
I never engaged with any ‘Fire Engineers’

Note – this was 8 years ago – i accept the world may have changed post-Grenfell.

Are you submitting buildings regs or on a notice? We’ve done much the same as you. Full BR and no fire specialists not a problem.

Thanks for the responses folks, really appreciate it. I’m going to try and answer the questions.

@nickjb
The architect has requested we do this. His opinion is that using a fire engineer is the simplest way to get not having a door at the entrance to the stairs signed off. I’ll double check.

EDIT: To add to this, requirements have now changed. QA and insurers now require architects to have independent assessors for anything that’s outside the norm. Previously, they could sign off designs were conformant based on existing work. We’re considering using a smoke reservoir and fire suppressant system so we don’t need the fire door, as the stairs exit into a kitchen which is a fire risk.

@joshvegas
Yup, bog standard new build on an estate. Wholly domestic dwelling.

@airvent
Fire engineers seem to be pretty busy at the moment. I’ve tried contacting a few and this is the only person who’s been able to quote. Even they are only able to fit the work in a few months down the line.

@dropoff
Sound advice, I’ll do that.

@freeagent
The architect does know. However, I don’t know if it’s because it’s a mist system vs a sprinkler system? I will double check.

@lesgrandepotato
Does “on a notice” mean under permitted development? I think the entire planning application is under building regulations anyway, though you could probably do just the attic conversion under permitted development.

The issue at the minute is professional indemnity for fire safety work is extremely expensive in the post Grenfell age.

I am trying to place a few at the moment. Yes it ranges from horrifically expensive through to non-existent and all quotes/policies seem to have a complete fire safety exclusion as well which writes out much of the very expensive cover anyway. Total nightmare for such firms at the moment…

Starting to sound more and more like my only option is to suck it up and pay. Would have been nice to have one more quote, but I guess them’s the breaks.

Have you asked the planning department what they actually want to see?

@flaperon
Planning department haven’t asked for anything explicitly. What I’ve been told by the architect is that if you use the council inspector, then they will ask for fire doors throughout, and a fire door to the entrance to the stairs at the ground floor or the floor above in addition to a sprinkler or mist system in the kitchen.

A fire engineer assessment could mean we can do away with the fire door requirement by building a smoke reservoir on the ground floor and use induction hobs in the kitchen. In other words, the fire engineer lets you interpret the regulations with a bit more flexibility than the fire inspector the council uses would.

It’s not a planning issue, it’s building regs. They’ll be happy with anything that is in approved doc B. If you want something else then you may need a specialist but I’d hope an architect would have a pretty good idea of a working solution that didn’t need an extra £1700 to say it’s ok

The architect has requested we do this. His opinion is that using a fire engineer is the simplest way to get not having a door at the entrance to the stairs signed off. I’ll double check.

Ah yeah that’d do it staircases have to be protected if they are the only means of escape. Personally though two doors between bedrooms and everything else is a good idea, I hate open plan houses they’re noisy.

I never knew this was a thing!

@nickjb
Yeah, the architect is pretty much on the right track, but it looks like things have changed. They used to be able to sign off designs as conformant based on previous work, but that’s no longer an option these days apparently. This is due to insurance requirement and their external QA apparently.

It’s not Keith Laird is it? I hear he can be a bit fussy.

Don’t conflate building regs with planning. Planning let you build it. Building regs specify the how.

Just because planning signs it off doesn’t mean it’s even buildable.

I’d suggest a full building regs submission is in order.

Given the cost of a mist system then either put doors in (which I think you’d end up doing down the road anyway for soundproofing), or get the installer to handle the donkey work.

Costs are £150 per hour, so that works out to around 11 hours of work to come up with the assessment.

Presumably he has to carefully study the plans, write a report, possibly do some calculations, consult various regulations etc. If feels more like 1 day than a day and a half, but if the report has to be reviewed by anyone else or sending it to you isn’t quite the end of the story e.g. possibly clarify things with your architect, or building control in due course. Then its not crazy hours.

The issue at the minute is professional indemnity for fire safety work is extremely expensive in the post Grenfell age.

But that is presumably built in to the cost per hour rather than an extra cost. £150/hr doesn’t seem unreasonable for any expert. The only reason this will be more not is if the insurers are requiring a greater level of depth / documentation / scrutiny – that could turn a morning and a quick email into a days work writing it up with justification for every mistake you might be making.

I’d hope an architect would have a pretty good idea of a working solution that didn’t need an extra £1700 to say it’s ok

He does – it involves doors and stuff the OP doesn’t want! This cost is coming because the OP (or his architect) are prioritising style/aesthetics over normal industry practice. Turning a 2 story house into a 3 story one only adds extra fun (beware this suddenly means you need building control approval for future stuff you wouldn’t in next door’s 2 story house!).

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about how busy they are at the moment. He’s fitting it in and probably doesn’t need or even want the work at the moment, he’s put in a price that makes its benficial to him.

Also, £150per hour for a professional engineer sorting his own insurances doesn’t sound too bad. I’m not far off that And I work for a large company who yet the benefit of economies of scale for that sort of thing.

@poly
Yup, if we went the bog standard way, then it would be fire doors and a misting system. If you don’t want the doors, then you pay for the privilege. I just didn’t think I would be paying this much!

It sounds like if we’d built the same thing a few years previously, then it wouldn’t have needed the fire engineer sign off. The architect has previously built similar designs which were compliant.

So far, this is the only quote I’ve got, hence trying to check price. If all it lets us do is get rid of a single door, then maybe that money is put to better use elsewhere.

£150 per hour may not be unreasonable and I get the reasons you mention could add to the cost. However, the scope of work supplied doesn’t mention anything along the lines of scrutiny by a third party for the fire engineer’s work. It sounds like they’re solely responsible for the work. I’m just wondering what the calculations and so on it will involve are if the methods of minimising the fire hazard are already known.

If what you are building isn’t ‘code compliant’ then the building regulations allow provision for a fire engineered solution.

Basically smoke modelling will be used (computer programme) to demonstrate that the stairs in your arrangement would be safe.

The fee for the report is the fee. I doubt it would take someone more than an hour or two but you are paying them for the liability and the programme licenses that will demonstrate the effectiveness of the proposal.

If it was me I’d always have a fire door off the kitchen with interlinked heat detection in there.

@andy3809
Like a door that closes based on an indicator of whether there’s a fire or not?

Anyway, architect has come back saying the quote is very high for the work that’s being done. Let’s see how it plays out. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I can probably build the reservoir in, keep the door and just remove it at a later point hopefully.

But that is presumably built in to the cost per hour rather than an extra cost. £150/hr doesn’t seem unreasonable for any expert.

The issue you have is that a policy that cost £2-3k last year is either simply not available or costs £15-20k this year. For larger firms prices start at around the £40k mark and can hit 6 figures.

Yes, that much of an increase. And for once I can safely claim I am a professional indemnity expert having been doing it for 20 years :).

Yes – concealed hold open device linked to the detector, that’s if there is room and the arrangement works with an open door.

It’s not great using a heat detector for this though as significant smoke may be on the stair by the time it operates. Smoke would be better for early detection but doesn’t really work in a kitchen.

Depending on the layout a multi detector linked to the door retainer outside the kitchen may be a good compromise (and cheaper). In practice this would long activate before a heat directly placed in the kitchen.

The issue you have is that a policy that cost £2-3k last year is either simply not available or costs £15-20k this year. For larger firms prices start at around the £40k mark and can hit 6 figures.

Yes, that much of an increase. And for once I can safely claim I am a professional indemnity expert having been doing it for 20 years :).

So that increases your billable rate from £125 to £150, not the the number of hours.

Personally if I were the OP I’d be making this the architects problem to solve!

Do you really want to do this? make your house a fire trap then try to bodge it so it less lethal?

Have you thought what it will do to the value of the property if you want to sell it at any point? IMO it will be massively devalued as many folk would not want to live in a house with no doors between the kitchen and upstairs

there is a good reason why the regs are as they are

Hello! Chartered Fire Engineer here.
Would need to look at the plans to comment in detail, but sounds as though the issue might be down to the addition of the loft conversion. Adding an extra storey means that, for Building Regs purposes, you usually need to provide separation between the stair and accommodation.

The logic being that you have further to travel to escape from an attic if there’s a fire in the kitchen, and the stair is the only escape route. Separating the stair from the kitchen therefore protects your means of escape.

If you’re planning on opening up the kitchen/lounge into the stair and adding an extra storey, this would deviate from “standard” guidance (i.e. Approved Document B) and would need a specialist (i.e. a fire engineer) to come up with an fire engineering solution that gives an equivalent or better standard of safety. This then needs to be put to Building Control for approval.

The Fire Engineer will need to review the plans, assist the architect in developing the design, write a justification report for submission for Building Regs approval (including QA, etc), then deal with any comments from Building Control. My firm don’t do much domestic residential work so not sure what the “going rate” would be exactly, but i’d say £1,700 is actually very cheap for all that!

A Fire Engineer can’t usually magic the problem away though (despite what some architects think), and you’d likely need to provide some additional compensatory features such as watermist (or cooker suppression), enhanced fire detection, fire doors etc on top of your £1,700 fee. There is of course also no guarantee that your Building Control officer will accept the solution after all that (they can be very cautious when it comes to fire safety of residential premises, for obvious reasons)

So it might be worth thinking about whether the design “benefit” is really worth it, or if the architect can find a more compliant way.

Feel free to DM me if you want to chat through further. Cheers

@aelliott
Thanks for weighing in. Really appreciate it!
Yes, you’ve nailed it. The architect’s idea is that by using a smoke reservoir and a misting system, you could eliminate the additional fire door which would need to be at the boundary between the stairs and the kitchen, or the stairs and the first floor.

If going the “normal” route, then it would be fire doors and a misting/sprinker system. And like you say, the fire engineer needs to propose a different way to mitigate the risk so we can do away with the requirement for a door either at the top or the bottom. Potentially adding a smoke reservoir would mean you have additional time to escape in case of a fire.

The fire engineer’s quote is detailed, and seems to only cover inspecting the architect’s plans and providing recommendations. After this, there can be one more review. But there’s no mention of liaising with building control. If building control disagree, you’d need to pay for additional consultation.

It makes sense to me that liasing with building control would mean quoting again. They won’t know how much they’d have to change until the recommendations were made.

Some folks are saying that due to the sheer volume of work due to the cladding scandal, it’s difficult to find fire engineers, and prices are high as a result too. I have no idea how true that is. And like @dannybgoode mentioned, if indemnity prices are rising, then you’d expect them to pass those costs on.

I’m considering if we can build to normal regulations and add the smoke reservoir too. Which means, at a later point when things calm down, we could have it reassessed and remove the door and save the costs for paying the assessment right now. Still depends on what the property will allow us to construct though. I’ll need to check this with the architect anyway.

Thanks for the offer of conversing via DM, I’ll take you up on that. That’s really kind of you.

@aelliot Has it.

I’m a builder. What you describe is our bread and butter, we knock out about 10 or so of these jobs out a year.

Open staircase is your problem. If and it is if, building control will go for the Fire Engineer’s solution (Plenty won’t) then you will highly likely need to install proper fire doors and new door frames throughout on top of the fees.

A half decent looking fire door will set you back £100 + VAT (and rising) plus fixtures (proper rated hinges) £20 + VAT per door, plus fitting £100 + VAT Per door. The frames are currently about £35 + VAT (and rising) and about £50 + VAT to fit/cart away all the existing and dispose of. Then you’ve got architrave of your choice and remedial works to any skirting boards which need it…All of those costs are at my trade discount rates – your builder will likely charge you more as he is extending his credit to source them for you – if you go this route.

Fitting the frames will result in a mess to every room, damage to plaster and then making good with fire retardant materials – no way to say how much this will cost but it will be a good few £100s.

Trust me when I say this, you’re looking at £1000s just to avoid having a door splitting the levels. My advice, consult with your architect and get him/her to design something around the issue. There are some nice ways of doing this, just needs some imagination…

@ollie_the_brave
Thanks for that. It really helps to get a better idea of the costs. It sounds like if the door were built, then I’d be looking at around around £500-600 just to fit the doors all told.

Is the point you’re making that it’s better to pay the fire engineer to recommend a solution not involving the door than to pay the costs for getting a door, as the money you save on the assessment would need to be paid for when fitting the additional door, on top of the hassle of fitting them too?

If it is, then the thing that worries me is if building regs reject the fire engineer’s recommendation, then you’d have to pay both costs anyway.

I’d expect building regs would make you fit new doors/frames on every bedroom and to block each staircase – hard to say exactly, it varies with each council and can vary with each inspector…

I’d have a chat with your building inspector, even arrange a meeting with them and the architect. Explain exactly what you want to achieve. You will then get a very clear guide on what they will expect. Our local team are great, but then I’ve worked with them for years and know them well. Most will be happy to discuss things like this in my experience.

The problem you may have is that if the building inspector doesn’t like the Fire Engineer’s solution you’ve paid for the survey/report etc and then will have to implement what they want for eventual sign off. Have been involved in builds like this a couple of times – not pleasant…

An open, frank discussion is what I’d recommend – it will also show the inspector you are taking the issue seriously (many people don’t) and they tend to respond well to that. You can usually get them to visit site for a ‘pre works’ meeting as part of the fees you’ll be paying. Involve your architect – this is precisely what you’re paying them for.

@ollie_the_brave
Yes, you’ve captured exactly what I’m worried about and that’s great advice. Thanks! I’ll speak to them and see if we can arrange that.

The architect’s idea is that by using a smoke reservoir and a misting system, you could eliminate the additional fire door which would need to be at the boundary between the stairs and the kitchen, or the stairs and the first floor.

I’d be wary of any architect suggesting a smoke reservoir as an appropriate solution in a relatively small residential dwelling! Smoke reservoirs are something we put in atriums and shopping centres, not domestic houses.
If you want to rely on this as a compensatory feature, it would need to be backed up with detailed smoke calculations, justification and probably some form of smoke venting too.
My advice would be to stick to the “standard’ guidance if you can.

The fire engineer’s quote is detailed, and seems to only cover inspecting the architect’s plans and providing recommendations. After this, there can be one more review.

Sounds like the £1,700 is just the start then. You then need to factor in further time/fee for the calcs, justification, liaison with Building Control etc if you go down that route.

Some folks are saying that due to the sheer volume of work due to the cladding scandal, it’s difficult to find fire engineers, and prices are high as a result too. I have no idea how true that is.

Yes we are very busy! Its also highly specialist work, and there is a huge shortage of competent fire engineers compared to the demand. Small domestic work like this is not a big priority for most.

I’m considering if we can build to normal regulations and add the smoke reservoir too. Which means, at a later point when things calm down, we could have it reassessed and remove the door and save the costs for paying the assessment right now.

What you do with the door after completion is entirely up to you, and technically you may not need approval to remove it at this point. But this would obviously entirely be at your own risk, and you would potentially be living in a unsafe property unless you put other suitable measures in place.

As Olly says, I suggest speaking to your local Building Control officer/surveyor in the first instance. They’re ultimately the ones you’ll need to convince, and they should be able to tell you what they’re willing to accept (or not).

What you do with the door after completion is entirely up to you, and technically you may not need approval to remove it at this point. But this would obviously entirely be at your own risk, and you would potentially be living in a unsafe property unless you put other suitable measures in place.

This ^^

However, accept the fact that if the house burns down, you are not insured…Plenty of our customers comment that once the job is finished with the doors they were convinced they’d remove after completion that they actually quite like them and the finished layout. You can get some nice fire doors these days, even glazed jobs which can work well to ease the aesthetic, just ensure you’re sitting down when you see the cost of the glazed ones…£££

I should have been more specific. I’m not going to remove fire doors if that meant the building isn’t compliant or it invalidates insurance. I was hoping we could construct *including* fire doors and the smoke reservoir, and get fire engineer sign off at a later date confirming the door wasn’t necessary. If it isn’t, then the door stays. However, to do that, you’d need to add a beam at the base of the stairs to act as the smoke reservoir, and I don’t know how that affects the construction of the doors. And like @ollie_the_brave mentioned, you’d need to factor in costs for removing the door when you did that, so you may just be paying twice over.

Anyway, building control have suggested that fire engineer sign off is a must. However, I have made a mistake saying the architect was able to sign off the plans based on previous designs. It’s building control who were previously able to do that, and the suggestion of the smoke reservoir originated from them and not the architect. These days they require an independent assessment from a fire engineer.

The good news is, if the fire engineer thinks it’s possible to mitigate risk with the reservoir, then the building inspector may be ok with the approach taken. I just need to get another quote and see if the fire engineer agrees with this. They’re the expert after all.

Anyway, building control have suggested that fire engineer sign off is a must. However, I have made a mistake saying the architect was able to sign off the plans based on previous designs.

As Aelliot says that is true in this circumstance because the proposed layout doesn’t comply with the approved documents.  If you were willing to go for a lobbied stair with an external door or could provide viable an escape arrangement for the upper floor rooms which doesn’t involve the open stair area the problem would go away.  If a design meets the requirements of approved documents an architect can pretty much say that things are compliant however signing it off is down to Building Control or your Approved Inspector

If you need a mist system and potentially smoke vents for your reservoirs £1700 isn’t going to be your main cost.  Its basically up to you to weigh up how much you are willing to pay for the truly open plan ground floor and your architect to show you the alternatives

In any discussion of Building Regulations, the first question is “which UK nation is it in?”. Scotland and NI have their own regulations that can differ from England and Wales.