Far right attempting to subvert the farmers protests in London.

Isn’t that the point? The business isn’t viable if you have to buy the land, or if you’ve got an extra few £100000’s to pay IT on.

So sell up and do something else with your life.

I don’t believe that the land price across the whole of the UK can be supported entirely by speculation that it will be built on.

An asset is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Why is the land so valuable?

If it’s only valuable because of being a vehicle to avoid IHT, then that is gone and the book price can be corrected.

If that’s not the case, what is the high value based on?

Is it too soon yet for the IHT announcement to start impacting land prices?

Based on the current weather in London I suspect that the expected turnout by the Tommy Robinson Fan Club to be no more than a damp squib.

Which if my suspicions are correct will be rather ironic….. beaten by the good ol’ British weather.

Its sure this isn’t representative of all farmers but the small family owned ones I’ve noticed where I walk doggo are dumping slurry straight into the local river (seen the tankers with hoses discharging), burning silage poly wrap, dumping building waste in spoil heaps, driving the building waste tractors with no regards for other road users and generally have farms that look like something from the set of MadMax.

The ones that have diversified or bought them for tax reasons (eg. local brewery has a rare breeds pig farm) are spotless and look to be far better run because I’m guessing they don’t need to make a profit.

An interesting article on the bbc website this morning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

It suggests that in reality the IHT threshold for farmers after the budget is actually £3m assuming not tax planning and it only affected around 100 farms in a year. I’m sure with some simple planning that could be much lower

[oldmanmtb2]

oldmanmtb2

Free Member

Farmer on Radio  2 today ” i only make 12k a year” from a £10 million pound Farm… what the Farmer meant was after all my subsistence Costs (home vehicles all bills) I only made £12k disposable. I live among them and they still buy land at more than £10k an acre then stand in the pub and moan they can’t make it pay….. full of manure.

12K profit a year is not a lot when you are putting so much capital in, a grand a month – i bet you wouldnt be saying that to someone who scimps and is able to save that as an employee, also are you saying that he should be able to make a profit and be able to have hobbies, holidays new clothes etc – are we now dictating the terms of how much a farmer should reasonably be able to make -are we dictating what consititues work, or how many hours they should do a week.

I find some of the reposnses baffling, almost as though it comes from jealousy and bitterness that how dare someone have something that i dont.  The proposals will only make [cash] rich people richer as they will buy the land at reduced value (because the tax cannot be raised) and that will go to larger estates where they are happy to pay 20% on value and not 40% on their earnings.

I also heard an argument about how it’s impossible fo new people to get into farming becuase the land is so expensive – yes, becuase of land owners, not farmers.  So their view is that the 20% IHT was a good thing as it would force people to sell the lives just so someone else can ‘have a go’ – becuase we all know starting a new farm is mega easy!

Farmer on Radio  2 today ” i only make 12k a year” from a £10 million pound Farm… what the Farmer meant was after all my subsistence Costs (home vehicles all bills) I only made £12k disposable. I live among them and they still buy land at more than £10k an acre then stand in the pub and moan they can’t make it pay….. full of manure.

All they need to do is hand it on 7 years before they die., which is very straight forward if it’s truly a “family business”.

There is some absolute nonsense spouted on the radio this morning.

if the business model is as bad as they say, why would you inflict it on the next generation?

I have not heard 1 valid argument why farmers and land owners should get preferable rules on IHT.

All I have heard is “cos farming”.

Surely Clarkson attending this protest is doing more harm than good. He openly bought it to avoid tax according to The Times article “Jeremys latest plaything”

https://www.thetimes.com/article/clarksons-latest-plaything-4-25m-farm-where-he-can-whiz-around-on-quad-bikes-jz8jd6xjcpv

“Land is a better investment than any bank can offer. The Government doesn’t get any of my money when I die.”

All they need to do is hand it on 7 years before they die., which is very straight forward if it’s truly a “family business”.

Are there different rules for farmers than the rest of us. If I pass on something to my kids then I can’t have a beneficial interest from it- eg, passing on a rental flat means I can’t receive rent from it, but I can’t live in it rent free either. If a farmer passes on his farm, then presumably he can’t receive any income from it, or even live rent free in any house that’s part of the farm, or have I got this bit wrong?

Yes the limit is pretty high, this is from the Government page. I’m from a farming background I know how hard farming is and now hard they work but this is about landowners and the rich trying to avoid tax. It’s not about punishing farmers.

Are there different rules for farmers than the rest of us. If I pass on something to my kids then I can’t have a beneficial interest from it- eg, passing on a rental flat means I can’t receive rent from it, but I can’t live in it rent free either. If a farmer passes on his farm, then presumably he can’t receive any income from it, or even live rent free in any house that’s part of the farm, or have I got this bit wrong?

Nope, you’ve got it right – different rules to the rest of us.

ernielynch
Full Member
Based on the current weather in London I suspect that the expected turnout by the Tommy Robinson Fan Club to be no more than a damp squib.

Very dependent upon whether the swastikas are drawn on with felt tip or Sharpie.; -)

I would apologise for going ot but the far right element of the post has been subverted by you ‘orrible lot! lol

presumably he can’t receive any income from it, or even live rent free in any house that’s part of the farm

Then… the farm is passed on without the “retirement” house. On death, that remaining house, if worth enough, gets taxed just like your home would be, if worth enough. I don’t see a problem. Land worth many millions can change hands within the family, without inheritance tax. If the remaining home gets hits with inheritance tax, because it’s worth lots… that’s exactly how wealth taxes operate… and unless as a country we start to embrace wealth taxes, our upstairs downstairs cap doffing mentality will never be done away with.

Surely Clarkson attending this protest is doing more harm than good. He openly bought it to avoid tax according to The Times article “Jeremys latest plaything”

Isn’t he part of the right wing protest?

I’m rather stunned by what I’m reading on this thread.

UK farming isn’t green?  Compared to what? Transporting your milk from across the continent? Flying your beef in from Brazil or lamb from New Zealand?

What’s the high land value based on?  Some developer whacking a load of shite quality houses on the land.

Why should farmers get preferential IHT rules? Precisely because it’s not a ‘normal’ business, the land value does not directly reflect the productivity of the farm.

As for that list of dukes over the page, well this probably won’t affect them, because they’ll have top drawer accountants already putting the farms into trusts or whatever schemes to ensure they don’t pay a penny.

The people it will really hurt are the small to mid size family farms where the land is passed down generation to generation and to whom the value of the land is really irrelevant anyway.

“Is it too soon yet for the IHT announcement to start impacting land prices?”

Not if it’s a genuine thing, as opposed to a nothingburger whipped up by a few well-connected rabble rousers.

What’s the high land value based on? Some developer whacking a load of shite quality houses on the land.

Nope, most farmland cant be built on. That which can will have far higher land value and as a hint those keen custodians of the countryside and believers in handing down generation upon generation would have flogged it in that case.

Why should farmers get preferential IHT rules? Precisely because it’s not a ‘normal’ business, the land value does not directly reflect the productivity of the farm.

And now we get into the circular argument. The land prices have increased since the Dysons and Clarksons of this world use it as a way of not paying inheritance tax. If the prices do not reflect the land productivity then something external is skewing those prices.

The people it will really hurt are the small to mid size family farms where the land is passed down generation to generation and to whom the value of the land is really irrelevant anyway.

Well they managed before this exemption was put in so why not now? Also most if not all of those farms wouldnt be impacted.

What’s the high land value based on?

What’s the high value of homes based on?

https://landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi/browse?from=1966-01-01&location=http%3A%2F%2Flandregistry.data.gov.uk%2Fid%2Fregion%2Funited-kingdom&to=2024-11-01&lang=en

The value of land, of all forms, has gone up, and up.

If you owned lots of houses 40 years ago, your wealth is now vastly higher.

If you owned lots of land 40 years ago, your wealth is now vastly higher.

That increase in wealth, for the wealthiest, is fair game for taxation. Why shouldn’t it be?

Only own a modest house, or a small farm… there are tax breaks still there to protect you.

teh ironing of driving into London in tractors that they pay no road fund licence, less tax on the fuel, no congestion and no ULEZ,

Sort of reverting back to the far right thing raised by the OP. My facebook feed this morning was flooded by posts from “aggressively patriotic” groups supporting the farmers. The levels to which this stuff is being manipulated by others (in this case the wealthy i suspect) is staggering.

Well they managed before this exemption was put in so why not now? Also most if not all of those farms wouldnt be impacted.

I suspect that they may view the impact differently.

They may not have paid inheritance tax, but won’t want to see their assets (however illiquid) fall in value.

A bit like house prices. Everyone agrees there’s a crisis when it comes to housing and want more affordable prices for their kids etc.  But they don’t want it locally because that would push down the value of their house….

dissonance

Nope, most farmland cant be built on. That which can will have far higher land value and as a hint those keen custodians of the countryside and believers in handing down generation upon generation would have flogged it in that case.

Much of it can, and people are betting that more can in the future.

And now we get into the circular argument. The land prices have increased since the Dysons and Clarksons of this world use it as a way of not paying inheritance tax. If the prices do not reflect the land productivity then something external is skewing those prices.

Yeah so find a way to hit those people, not family farmers with a middling sized farm. Raising/tapering the threshold for example.

Well they managed before this exemption was put in so why not now? Also most if not all of those farms wouldn’t be impacted.

Go and look at land values over time, machinery costs etc compared to farm earnings and you will see why this was not an issue.

But it’s not just that it’s being changed, it’s also the fact it’s being changed at very short notice (much like the private school VAT fees thing being introduced in the middle of a school year).

from jealousy and bitterness that how dare someone have something that i dont

I think it’s more how dare they not pay something I have to. Albeit that most estates do not attract IHT, and nor will most farms. IHT is a rounding error in UK finances, but an emotive one, clearly

Since 2004, the price of farmland has increased from £5k per hectare to £23k per hectare. That’s 8% per annum with declining prices from 2015-2022 factored in! The price rise is not from farming. Perhaps a reset will help farmers farm land.

BTW average house prices have increased by 3.8% per annum in England over the same 20-year period. So half the rate of farmland. Clearly demand for farmland has outstripped supply, and one should ask why that might be the case.

UK farming isn’t green? Compared to what? Transporting your milk from across the continent? Flying your beef in from Brazil or lamb from New Zealand?

Compared to how it was before the big agribusinesses took over and started ripping up hedgerows, filling the ground with chemicals and the cows with unnecessary antibiotics. The farms aren’t some sort of rural idyll with chickens pecking about in the yard, there are thousands of them in massive sheds.

Indeed. And they’re massive….

andrewh

Free Member
UK farming isn’t green? Compared to what? Transporting your milk from across the continent? Flying your beef in from Brazil or lamb from New Zealand?
Compared to how it was before the big agribusinesses took over and started ripping up hedgerows, filling the ground with chemicals and the cows with unnecessary antibiotics. The farms aren’t some sort of rural idyll with chickens pecking about in the yard, there are thousands of them in massive sheds.

And this inheritance tax change fixes that how exactly?  In fact i bet this tax change causes family farmers to sell up and actually increase the amount of land that’s in the hands of “big agribusinesses”.

Nothing to do with the IHT debate at all, just pointing out that farming used to be much more environmentally sustainable.

It’s weird how ‘conventional farming’ is now seen as the norm and ‘organic farming’ is the unusual way of doing it, when did that change? What’s ‘conventional’ about changing the way we’ve grown food for thousands of years over the course of a generation or two? The quality of the food has not improved, the environment hasn’t, animal welfare hasn’t. Quantity, and the money made from it, have increased. Is that a better way of doing it?

The people it will really hurt are the small to mid size family farms where the land is passed down generation to generation and to whom the value of the land is really irrelevant anyway.

Then organise it into ‘business’ and ‘personal’ rather than trying to mix the two – just like the rest of us do when we’ve businesses.

The reason they haven’t is that it’s been more tax advantageous to not – and now it isn’t.

Grow up and be adults.

The people it will really hurt are the small to mid size family farms where the land is passed down generation to generation and to whom the value of the land is really irrelevant anyway.

But it wont. There is no iht in reality til £3m in assets as myself and others have already pointed out. Even then a little bit of financial and tax planning makes that disappear if your estate is worth more then £3m

I think it’s more how dare they not pay something I have to.

I think it’s more why don’t they pay something I have to? And yet to see any valid reason other than guardians of the countryside.

intheborders
The people it will really hurt are the small to mid size family farms where the land is passed down generation to generation and to whom the value of the land is really irrelevant anyway.
Then organise it into ‘business’ and ‘personal’ rather than trying to mix the two – just like the rest of us do when we’ve businesses.

The reason they haven’t is that it’s been more tax advantageous to not – and now it isn’t.

Grow up and be adults.

No need for the patronising tone. The point is that it has literally not even been a consideration for a family farm, suddenly, now it is.

Something like 40% of farmers are over 65, it’s a real problem to introduce this with a short deadline.

Slight tangent but I wonder if the powers that be are doing some red diesel checks in and around London today 🙂

And this inheritance tax change fixes that how exactly?

Well it would be nice if some of the money raised would go back into helping those farmers who want to do their bit to improve the ecology of their farms. They do exist.

I think it’s more why don’t they pay something I have to? And yet to see any valid reason other than guardians of the countryside.

becuase you’re not trying to pass on a business, a very complex one at that to people who don’t earn that much money compared to someone on payee.  We’re not comapring apples and apples, its apples and giraffes.

UK farming isn’t green?  Compared to what? Transporting your milk from across the continent? Flying your beef in from Brazil or lamb from New Zealand?

Imported food can be lower carbon than home-grown, yes.

becuase you’re not trying to pass on a business, a very complex one at that to people who don’t earn that much money compared to someone on payee.

I have a sideline business with a lot of capital tied up in it which will be subject to inheritance tax and i’d like to pass to my nephew and nieces. It doesn’t generate masses of profit but it ticks by. It’s not complex but so what. Apples and apples here.

it’s a real problem to introduce this with a short deadline.

Again, that’s life – death & taxes etc.