[Closed] Explain the "Thatcher" thing to me

Right, on that note, I'm off to bed!

you'd be better off asking google or wikipedia than asking on here, it will only descend into titting for tat

"You don't know, man, 'cause you weren't there..."

Emsz, this is a Monday Morning type thread. It's late and people are tired.

Her 'legacy' was to instil in people the idea that personal wealth is more important than a healthy society.

More than that, you'll have to wait until tomorrow...

X

<shudders>

To be honest, you had to be there.

And if you were, you really wish you weren't.

My dancing shoes are polished and ready....

Because she was a spiteful auld hoor.

emsz - Member
My first real awareness of politics was Blair, but even now she's still referenced (Cameron has been described as her heir)

[img] [/img]

She saved us from the unions and financial collapse, grew the middle class and broke down class barriers.

That really upset some people. 🙂

As a deliberate policy she pushed millions onto the dole and wasted the north sea oil money paying for them to do nothing.

We still are paying the price to day as the underclass she deliberately created continue to exist.

it was done to drive down the price of labour and to reduce the power of the unions. Unemployment from a million to nearer five million. Industry was devastated and the rich got richer while the poor got poorer

A massive crime against the people of our country. Of course some will defend her- the people who did well out of it - the richer amongst us.

and it is hate, not dislike or couldn't care, y'know?

She was so hated that she got re-elected - [i]twice[/i] and her policies so reviled that "New" labour adopted them whole-heartedly in order to get elected.

Does anyone remember all that Thatcher legislation that Tony Blair over-turned when New Labour got into power? All the industries they re-nationalised? The increased control they re-exerted over the financial services? Nope - neither do I.

if you want to know why she is so vilified you could do worse than to watch [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassed_Off ]this [/url]

See what I mean? It's always 'Her' and 'She did'. Not the conservatives or her government, but always just her. 😕

Why is that?

Edit: Hopeless I know, but I really don't want a fight, but I want to try to understand the history of it.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Charge ]Poll Tax [/url]

Okay. How long have you got? 🙂

After the war, we had our first few Labour govts who nationalised lots of industries and put up taxes and public spending. This carried on but by the 70s things were a little difficult. With so many industries owned nationally the unions were able to demand high pay and lots of benefits for their staff, otherwise they went on strike and, being national industries, the government lost lots of money.

So Thatcher was elected to sort all this out by privatising loads of companies and shutting down the industries she didn't like (broadly speaking) like coal.

Now.. the social aspect of this is interesting. When taxes were high and public spending was high, this is a more left-wing situation - it's spreading the wealth out more evenly amongst the people through taxation. A lot of people think this is good. Thatcher favoured a situation where people make lots of money for themselves, and this gets spread about buy people buying stuff from other people. Consequently, the 80s were all about individual money-making and greed.

Or to put it another way, Thatcher was very right wing (in British terms at least). Those people who like to make lots of money for themselves loved her because she gave them the opportunity to do so. Those people who wanted everyone to be nice to each other hated her.

There were a few incidents that were worse than that though. The coal miners didn't like what was happening so they went on strike. This of course meant no electricity could be generated, which is pretty bad. So Thatcher closed down coal mines and bought the coal from elsewhere which successfully stopped the coal miners from holding the country to ransom. However a small side-effect of this was the removal of the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of people, which destroyed communities across large areas of the country.

That's why she's hated.

I'm sure I've got much of this all wrong but that's how I understand it. I was only 4 when she was elected 🙂

She saved us from the unions and financial collapse, grew the middle class and broke down class barriers.

Which is why we now have an Underclass, rapidly evaporating workers' rights, increased hostility between different social groups and an even greater disparity of wealth amongst the population....

Why is that?

See what I mean? It's always 'Her' and 'She did'.

Cos most of it was her idea. Same as New Labour was Blair and Brown's idea.

Since Thatcher people really began t vote for their own interests rather than those of the nation

Lots of people round here and in south yorkshire haven't had a job since she was in her "prime". She's a "national heroine" for destroying British industry, British rail, British coal and British steel. Greed is good, and if you're not down with that you don't matter. Also she probably fathered David cameron.

They're casting their problem on society. [b]And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families[/b]

Prime minister Margaret Thatcher, talking to Women's Own magazine, October 31 1987

Also she probably fathered David cameron.

😆

Close the thread now. That line's not going to be topped.

😆

Purest qualitage...

druidh - you do know that the traditional rabids of this forum will largely ignore your pertinent comments of argue right around them.

TJ - reducing the cost of labour - by removing the economic crutches that underpinned badly-performing improperly nationalised industry? Interesting thought. That would then put us as competitive on the world manufacturing stage?

Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, British society was (slowly) becoming fairer, with better opportunities and living standards for those at the lower end of the social scale. Thatcher blew all that out of the water and created the economic feudalism that we live with today. Thatcher also helped to created an 'underclass' by smashing traditional heavy industry (especially up North) and accepting the resultant high unemployment as a 'price worth paying' rather than trying to create alternative jobs for those communities she shattered. I must stop now as I feel a rant coming on...

See what I mean? It's always 'Her' and 'She did'. Not the conservatives or her government, but always just her.

Why is that?

Hi Emsz

I think you'll find similar if you think about Tony Blair too. They are very polarising people. Perhaps another emsz in twenty years will ask the same question of him.

Thanks Molly, that's the sort of thing I was after

Edit Hi Adam

Because she drove it emsz. The political philosophy was hers.

She diverted money from the poorer folk to the richer - and never once actually had a majority of the vote despite massive parliamentary majorities - she got the parliamentary majorities because of a divided opposition.

An incredibly divisive figure because of her deliberately divisive policies. To her mass unemployment and the massive social ills it caused was a price worth paying in her own words - and we are still paying now.

Which is why we now have an Underclass, rapidly evaporating workers' rights, increased hostility between different social groups and an even greater disparity of wealth amongst the population.

All of which existed in 1978 and at most other times before and since. It was not some sort of utopia before 1979. Rose tinted 20/20 rear view vision does not suit you.

That would then put us as competitive on the world manufacturing stage?

We've bin steadily sliding down the table in terms of World's biggest producers...

My dancing shoes are polished and ready....

I've bin waiting and practicing for so long mine are practically worn out now. I'll have to get a new pair. 😐

Can't be long now.

Tick tock, tick tock....

(Please, Santa; please. I've bin good all year)

Also she probably fathered David cameron.

He has a point

[img] [/img]

And now I really am off to bed. Night all

she got the parliamentary majorities because of a divided opposition.

All of which existed in 1978 and at most other times before and since. It was not some sort of utopia before 1979. Rose tinted 20/20 rear view vision does not suit you.

The same could be said of you too, TooTall, regarding Mrs T's time...

EDIT: oops, pasted wrong bit! sorry!

She's a "national heroine" for destroying British industry, British rail, British coal and British steel.

For a bit of balance (and I am a long way from being Tory) the nationalised British industries were in a pretty poor state at the time. It was about that time when places like Japan started to get better than us at making things, and global markets were opening up so we could buy coal from central Europe. There were lots of factors - it's expensive ot mine coal in Wales because people need to be paid more, but the coal is very high quality which is great for steam trains and ships. Of course, there were very few of these around by the 70s so demand for the good expensive stuff had fallen hugely.

TooTall - Member
druidh - you do know that the traditional rabids of this forum will largely ignore your pertinent comments of argue right around them.

i'm 34, i hate her and i'm not sure why. Maybe it was my Dad throwing things at the tv when she was on. Dunno.

She was so hated that she got re-elected - twice and her policies so reviled that "New" labour adopted them whole-heartedly in order to get elected.

Does anyone remember all that Thatcher legislation that Tony Blair over-turned when New Labour got into power? All the industries they re-nationalised? The increased control they re-exerted over the financial services? Nope - neither do I.

No, because she made everyone greedy and sefl-seeking

In fairness to Blair, his idea for New Labour was to be somewhere in between the Tories and old Labour. Which is reasonable - people had the opportunity to vote the old ways back in for a generation, and they didn't, because (on average) we didn't want to go back. That's democracy in action, and it's what fit society at the time.

Old Labour was committed to nationalising industries. That would really not have fit well with the modern world we found ourselves in.

It would appear that we have an overriding hatred for the woman here. 😕
Dividing the population? I think she's brought us closer together... My enemy's enemy is my friend.
Perhaps we should be celebrating her....

Nurse! NURSE!!! Where's my medication??? NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURSE!!!!

There are people who did well out of her policies and who did not see / did not want to see / do no care about the social ills she caused.

Remember this was a deliberate policy. To her this was a price worth paying

and the "economic miracle" that people say she created is utter bunkum. High infleation, low growth and it was only prevented from being worse by using the north sea oil money and selling of state assets cheap - things that belonged to the country were sold off cheaply and the money was not even invested it was used to pay benefits for people to sit around doing nothing

The damage she did to the manufacturing capability and to the social fabric of this country may never be repaired.

The same could be said of you too, TooTall, regarding Mrs T's time...

I haven't said it was anything at all. I don't agree with some of what was undertaken by the government of the time, but I will view it in context rather than the way many others around here put things. There were crappy bits before, during and after and there will continue to be many more.

she helped create/invent mr whippy ice-cream ... thats enough to cause hate from me

I think don simon has put it best...

Don't doubt that it is hate, she popularized and encouraged selfishness to levels that split families, destroyed towns and sold out industries. Not for the good of the population, but for the good of herself and a few well positioned cronies.

As Elf said, she created the "underclass". My dancing shoes are sparkling.

damn double post

emsz - Member

See what I mean? It's always 'Her' and 'She did'. Not the conservatives or her government, but always just her.

Why is that?

Exactly. She was/is hugely overrated. Thatcher didn't even invent Thatcherism. The economic ideas came from Milton Friedman, and Sir Keith Joseph, Thatcher's guru and mentor, invented Thatcherism.

Unfortunately for him Sir Keith Joseph, unlike Thatcher, was [i]actually[/i] mad, and he finally had to accept that he had no hope to become British Prime Minister, so he passed that task on to his protege - Thatcher.

Thatcher was eventually sacked by the Tories when they no longer had any use for her - right in the middle of her premiership.

It's the Tories what done it. And pushing all the responsibility and blame onto Thatcher is lazy and shows a lack of political awareness.

She was the last conviction prime minister, probably that we'll ever see. This was far more significant than usual as there was no effective opposition to her in the 1980s. She was elected in 79 with a majority of around 40, then in 83 with a landslide majority of 144, and again in 87 with a majority of around 100. So it was free rein to do what you want with the public's backing. [When you hear a 40-50 yo Ted talking about dancing on her grave - check their voting record. Some embarrassed silences will ensue].

She was a very intelligent, forceful person who would read someone like Hayek and think let's go ahead and implement these theories. With no opposition that's a dangerous game, because you can go ahead and do just that without any checks or balances as they say in the US. She's probably a good argument for keeping properly intelligent people out of #10.

We could argue till the cows come home about the Thatcher and I guess thats a big part of her legacy she really divided people. At the time I couldn't believe how she got re elected but the labour party was out of sink with the way people thought (I was a member at the time) and the only way it could get in to power was to nick the tories polices which says it all really, you get what you vote for and we wanted a thatcher goverment and its polices and still do.

she has claimed a total of £535,000 in state handouts since 2006.

she helped create/invent mr whippy ice-cream

That is 100% true. She's a chemist by profession.

druid +1

She was a very intelligent, forceful person who would read someone like Hayek and think let's go ahead and implement these theories.

Yeah the Poll Tax, "her flagship" as she called it, was a very smart idea. It got her the sack.

and the only way it could get in to power was to nick the tories polices which says it all really,

The damage she did to the manufacturing capability and to the social fabric of this country may never be repaired.

I am not sure the manufacturing industry was in tip top shape before she got involved, TJ. You can't pretend that China would not have taken all our business regardless of whoever was in power. They have something we will never have - billions of very poor people.

However I agree with you about damaging the social fabric. Very sad.

Although I am not old enough to have experienced adult life in the 70s, so I dunno what it was really like.

I think she wanted people to stand on their own feet but backfired because many were addicted to life of idleness by blaming others except themselves.

Stop blaming the woman. Blame yourself. Are you not able-bodied? Be a slave or work for peanuts.

You never had it so good ... maggots! 😆

Do remeber she never got anywhere near a majority of the vote - the opposition were divided which helped the tories a lot.

Also its worth pointing out the failure of her economic policies. Under the tories we had high inflation, low growth, very high public spending and massive unemployment hardly a "economic miracle" especially as we got nothing for this as the money was spent on unemployment benefits rather that something useful like building infrastructure.

the rich got richer and the poor got poorer

To answer your 'Her' question, you had to be there but she was nails. She looked like a teacher but she'd come out tops in any cage fighting competition. Properly hard woman. Took no crap, attacked any weakness.

Bully, thug. She was really good at inspiring hate in people. Identify a group of people who she despised, say....errm...cyclists, have a think about it, say something she knew would create an association with ****e.... I mean people who think money is the most important thing on earth and then say it. I dunno.... 'When I see a grown man on a bike I see a failure' that sort of thing. Then sit back and watch the morons who always secretly thought that run with it.

She was *very* good at that sort of stuff.

They have something we will never have - billions of very poor people.

That's true.

We'll just end up with [i]millions[/i] of very poor people...

there are divided opinios here, but i wonder if age is and issue, could. Are there any pro-thatch folks here over, lets say, 35?

Although I am not old enough to have experienced adult life in the 70s, so I dunno what it was really like.

I was. I was 18 when she came to power. The year before she came to power I got a job in a local hospital they were looking for staff. 2 years later they had a waiting list of 60 people looking for work.

I remember what it was like before her deliberately created mass unemployment

I'll not ignore your post Druidh...

Are you suggesting that it was a case of "cometh the hour, cometh the (wo)man"?

I have a visceral hatred for her and her current successors like Cameron, Maude and Gove but I'm coming to accept that she gave society what it really wanted which was the "me culture" that is still alive today. It is a indictment of UK society that this has been allowed to flourish under successive governments, despite the shift to Labour in 1997.

I commend to the house Jimmy Reid's rectorial address to the students of Glasgow University in 1971. Cometh the hour...

http://www.scottishleftreview.org/li/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=336

emsz - Member
See what I mean? It's always 'Her' and 'She did'. Not the conservatives or her government, but always just her.

Why is that?

you dod the same with Blair rather than his govt - we blame PMS for what happens- its called thatcherism as well as she was forceful to put it mildly

She/they did this - sorry of posted only skim read the thread

Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988 caused the controversial addition of Section 2A to the Local Government Act 1986 (affecting England, Wales and Scotland), enacted on 24 May 1988 and repealed on 21 June 2000 in Scotland, and on 18 November 2003 in the rest of Great Britain by section 122 of the Local Government Act 2003.[1] The amendment stated that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship"

it was illegal to say in schools that it was ok to be gay [ they called this promoting it FWIW] and to present it as equal to heterosexuality ...and this was in your lifetime

[When you hear a 40-50 yo Ted talking about dancing on her grave - check their voting record. Some embarrassed silences will ensue

Welcome to check mine - Voted Labour in every General Election since i was able to vote in 1985 apart from one silly flirtation with the Green Party.

I've no skeletons about Thatcher and i'll be digging out my dancing shoes...

Socially her impact on the UK was pretty damning for a large section of the population however there were still alot of winners in this equation and they will still support her and treat the social breakdown as a price worth paying in the belief that she improved the economic situation in the country.

However it is her long term economic legacy where the really damning inditement of her rule rests. Her governments had north sea oil revenues coming online and then the proceeds of privatisation* to play with. It was an enormous windfall, something that no UK government before or since will have at their disposal, and was squandered when you consider that a huge proportion of it effectively went to pay people for not working rather than trying to improve infrastructure, increase productive capacity, improve manufacturing methods and raise education standards - four things that we could still be seeing the benefit of today, these would be the motors of real economic growth and recovery instead of an over reliance on casino banking and all the problems that has brought in the last 5 years.

**for what is worth i think some of the privatisation has been a disaster. For example we are now in the position where the government subsidises a French state owned company to produce energy, with the profits of going to the French company/government rather than being reinvested in improving UK energy infrastructure - which could cut energy costs and in turn help create more wealth within the UK. But we can't have that sounds too much like socialism, best make a quick buck and who cares about more expensive energy costs and foreign state owned companies owning our utilities. So the long term benefit of this was debatable but at the time it is undeniable that the privatisation raised alot of revenue, it just that money wasn't invested wisely and was squandered.

She did create a new middle class through homeownership though? Selling council houses and increasing personal wealth must be a good thing, no? I know it removes the right to strike and gives the employers greater leverage and room for abuse, but hey, the middle class doesn't strike anyway, does it?
More tea anyone?

CharlieMungus - Member

No, because she made everyone greedy and sefl-seeking

speak for yourself, plenty of people do things which are neither

As Elf said, she created the "underclass".

and as for the opposition at the time, Foot and Kinnock were both plainly incompetent so are as much the blame for remaining in power as anyone. Scargill tried to step into the vaccuum and the inevitable happened

Obviously people will now tell me about the countries that have managed to maintain their manufacturing in state ownership and take it from strength to strength 😉

Interesting innit how "she" still polarises opinion. Perhaps some of us are old gits. 😀
TJ as Ernie has said none of the policues were hers, they mainly (all) came from Kieth Joseph (loved Steve bell's parody of Sir Keith).

Garry_lager - yup like that summary

Old Labour was committed to nationalising industries. That would really not have fit well with the modern world we found ourselves in.

TandemJeremy - Member

Do remeber she never got anywhere near a majority of the vote - the opposition were divided which helped the tories a lot.

😆 I love TJ ... you are going to blame the world now aren't you? TJ, some are born into privilege life some are born to suffer, some are born to lead others are born to put to hard labour. The life you choose depends on how you set your mind.

Also its worth pointing out the failure of her economic policies. Under the tories we had high inflation, low growth, very high public spending and massive unemployment hardly a "economic miracle" especially as we got nothing for this as the money was spent on unemployment benefits rather that something useful like building infrastructure.

Could the alternative in those days do better? I doubt it. Lazy buggers.

the rich got richer and the poor got poorer

Shhhiiittt! Did those people get rich by putting people into slavery, the N.Korean style? 😆

What's with all this shite blaming all the previous governments? Can't you just look to the future rather than indulge in the past?

hmmm i'd like to have seen Kinnock in government personally (without some of the baggage of course). I still think he started what J Smith continued which lead to Blair,

She was that good in scotland the tories have hardly won a seat here since she was pm. She probably singlehandedly created the north south divide. If she could not shut it down in scotland then the north of england got it, if you look emsz it is very probably a north south divide with her popularity.

stuartie_c - Member
I'll not ignore your post Druidh...

Are you suggesting that it was a case of "cometh the hour, cometh the (wo)man"?

I have a visceral hatred for her and her current successors like Cameron, Maude and Gove but I'm coming to accept that she gave society what it really wanted which was the "me culture" that is still alive today. It is a indictment of UK society that this has been allowed to flourish under successive governments, despite the shift to Labour in 1997.

No stuart - I'm merely reflecting on that fact that most of those criticising what she did and what she stood for continued to vote for "more of the same please", despite all the left-wing rhetoric on here. At least with Thatcher you knew what you were getting. It's the hypocrisy of the Labour party that sticks in my craw more - that and the cannon-fodder that continues to vote for it. I would argue that we, in Scotland, have had a more representative alternative for several years and yet there are still areas where a monkey wearing a red rose would be elected.

speak for yourself, plenty of people do things which are neither

yes, but clearly not enough

don simon - Member
She did create a new middle class through homeownership though? Selling council houses and increasing personal wealth must be a good thing, no?

owning a council house does not make you middle class.

druidh - Member

don simon - Member
She did create a new middle class through homeownership though? Selling council houses and increasing personal wealth must be a good thing, no?
Unless you'd like to rent a council house and you now find there are none available.

Yeah agreed that was shocking - cheap bribe to the electorate

Do remeber she never got anywhere near a majority of the vote - the opposition were divided which helped the tories a lot.

Unless you'd like to rent a council house and you now find there are none available.

I am not sure the manufacturing industry was in tip top shape before she got involved, TJ.

Britain was exporting more manufactured goods than importing when she became Prime Minister, by the time she left office Britain was importing more manufactured goods than exporting.

Not all her fault, but a fair chunk is - relying on, and building up, Britain's dependency on the finance industry was another clever idea of hers, and another reason why we're in such a mess today.

Do remeber she never got anywhere near a majority of the vote

I'll give you a hand to start - the most recent PM to get a larger share of the vote than Maggie got was Ted Heath.

Edit: damn you, Garry Lager - you should have let Jeremy do the research himself.