European Referendum…

Cameron has just abdicated any credibility – not fit to govern.

I don’t wholly disagree with this, but “red ed” Miliband also is not fit to govern and Clegg is a rent boy.
Who else is there?

I couldn’t agree more Wrecker. Has democracy in this country ever looked as shabby and threadbare? Basically its a choice of having the contents of this huge shit sandwich we’re going to force you to eat, on brown bread? Or white?

leaving the EU means MORE red-tape when dealing with EU member states

why would we want to do that to ourselves in the middle of a global recession?

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us.. do you think they are so naive as to put up trade barriers when the net beneficiary of the cross trade is them?

I’m waiting for you to demonstrate how democracy works in the EU and how the individuals votes effect the political direction it takes

I would ask you the same for the UK. Does dave give you a cal before acting or something?
Well I did mention some of the isues with our electoral system
Hereditary Lords – imagine EU commisioners by accident of birth
Hereditary head of state
No govt ever geting close to a majority of all votes cast
There was a result in the 70’s iirc where a party won most seats but lost the popular vote [feb 74 but no parliamentary majority]- imagine if Europe did that
Imagine the frothing
Instead we hold ours up as a paragon and criticiise them when ours is far from perfect.
Most , if not all , of the criticisms of the democracy of Europe can be made against any democracy as they are flawed to some degree.

As for my vote it has the same amount of power over the EU as it does over CMD – ie almost nothing – as far as i know no seat let alone election has ever been decided by just one vote.
I just see it as vehicle for folk to air their view on Euro

Is it undemocratic – probably and probably just as much as we are.
I dont expect the sceptics to accept this argument tbh but neither system is “fair” or beyong criticism. its just one is ours and one is theirs

leaving the EU means MORE red-tape when dealing with EU member states

That must be why the non-EU members of the EEA are clamouring to join the EU. Oh hang on…

All the Euro-philes might look a little more credible on threads like this if they didn’t try suggesting that not being in the EU would result in a huge difference in the way we trade with it.

do you think they are so naive as to put up trade barriers when the net beneficiary of the cross trade is them?

Do you know what the raison d’etre of the EU is?

Do you realy think we can be outside the Euro zone, not a partner to it and not be subject to tarrifs?
Given this why would anyone join as they can have the same benefits without actually harmonising
Really you think this could happen?

Do you know what the raison d’etre of the EU is?

Wasn’t it to stop us all emptying millions and millions of tonnes of munitions on each other from planes?

Do you realy think we can be outside the Euro zone, not a partner to it and not be subject to tarrifs?

Yip! Because for a start, it’d be illegal. And trade wars benefit absolutely no-one. Have you not noticed recently the increasing popularity of a concept called ‘globalisation’? Apparently it breaks down the barriers to international trade.

On what basis has Cameron abdicated any credibility and/or demonstrated a lack of fitness to govern?

What happened yesterday? He pointed out three core issues that are facing Europe yesterday and warned that failing to address these issues would create various problems. He then highlighted five clear standards against which the structure and possible reforms of the EU should be judged. This all seems pretty credible to me and showing more fitness for government that many other current leaders. And then, he turned the question over to the population to choose – and this is greeted with complaints over democracy! All very odd?

So what is a minority/coalition government meant to do? Remain impotent? Make no decisions? Implement policy paralysis? It’s not really fair to throw the notion that he (or the coalition) shouldn’t do things merely because his party did not win an outright majority. Especially when the policy is leading to a referendum which other leaders are…er, you decide? Hard to see what they we saying yesterday.

So the most obvious criticism is the “uncertainty” one. Fair point, but isn’t this lesser to two evils? The crisis affecting EU nations states and the failures of the current structure to deal with them are an even greater source of uncertainty preventing confidence returning to most parts of the economy. Picking the proverbial can up, is more preferable than merely kicking it down the road, which is what most politicians have been doing.

And the reaction in Europe, especially, the immediate split between the dog and the tail. And the dog gets it straight away and recognises legitimate areas of change and compromise from the off.The tail does a little bit of harmless wagging.

So on that scorecard, credibility enhanced (tick), fit to govern (tick), now they just need to get the policy mix correct (still a big cross)!

That must be why the non-EU members of the EEA are clamouring to join the EU. Oh hang on…

of the 7 who joined it 5 applied for full EU membership – 3 joined and two rejected it in a referendum and 2 never tried.
In the same time the EU has expanded from 12 to 27 members with some more still aplying
Not a conclusive proof of your view as its popular with some and not with others.
those left in the EEA is a club of those who dont want to join but want to trade so of course they dont want to join.

PS even if what you say ids true that does not prove that red tape wont increase either – it has nothing to say on that issue – and you want top criticise others for their argument style

All the Euro-philes might look a little more credible on threads like this if they didn’t try suggesting that not being in the EU would result in a huge difference in the way we trade with it

I cannot believe anyone on either side thinks there will not be large changes as a result of this.

Large and necessary changes are what everyone is hoping for JY!!!

I cannot believe anyone on either side thinks there will not be large changes as a result of this.

Erm… isn’t that the whole point?

“GOOD on David Cameron. He has finally listened to public opinion and agreed to seek a better, renegotiated EU membership deal for the UK. Nobody born after 1957 in the UK has ever had a chance to say what they think of an organisation that controls more of UK public policy than ever before.

Of course, the details of the prime minister’s proposed course of action are not perfect, and all of this could yet come to nothing as the referendum is due to take place after the next election, which Labour will probably win, but this is nevertheless a hugely important moment. Cameron deserves to be congratulated for his courage. He wants to stay in the EU; but understands that without significant repatriation of powers the public will eventually lose patience.

Those who believe in free trade and open markets should not fear this referendum. The business community is divided on the EU, unlike in the 1970s when it almost universally backed joining the common market. Now many, especially smaller firms but also plenty of large ones, support a looser arrangement; they realise that the EU is in terminal decline as a market and resent the endless stream of damaging, job-destroying rules, with Solvency II for insurers merely the latest in an extraordinarily long list.

In the 1970s and early 1980s, it was possible to portray the EU as a liberalising, anti-communist force; these days, it is primarily an engine of anti-democratic corporatism and social democracy, with some important pro-individual freedom elements drowned out by state-building.

It is sad that most banks remain in favour of the status quo, which in reality means progressively greater centralisation. They have got this terribly wrong. Yet business as a whole, like British society is divided; most want to stay in some much looser relationship, if it is possible to negotiate one. That’s also clearly Cameron’s position, though it remains to be seen what he exactly has in mind, and what he is able to negotiate.

A referendum will create uncertainty. But so does holding general elections or referenda on Scottish independence, events which are generally backed by opponents of this particular referendum. Big City firms have got their priorities wrong: the prospect of the Labour party winning the next election and imposing 75 per cent tax rates on bonuses, or the possibility of the EU capping them in an unworkable way, are much greater threats to their business models. Car companies should spend more time worrying about energy regulations or a further collapse in demand for their products caused by the dysfunctional euro. It is strange that these firms – many of which have gone begging for handouts in recent years – are so vocal about opposing any repatriation of political powers to the UK – but so quiet on other issues of far greater relevance to their prospects.

There is a parallel with the 50p tax rate. Supporters (a group which overlaps with pro-EU integrationists) argued it would have no impact on where business chose to locate; London’s pool of talent, language, restaurants and culture would supposedly be enough to keep everybody here. Yet now, suddenly, none of these matter: business is about to run away because of the EU question. These people need to make up their minds.

Above all, the City and business must stop scaremongering. They should focus on getting the right kind of renegotiation which preserves trade and essential freedoms but liberates us of unnecessary interference. If they don’t engage in this debate in a constructive manner, they will have only themselves to blame if they don’t like the final outcome.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2013/0124/1224329225295.html

Interesting opinion from Mr. Sutherland.

Wasn’t it to stop us all emptying millions and millions of tonnes of munitions on each other from planes?

Farmers protection surely 😉

Do you realy think we can be outside the Euro zone, not a partner to it and not be subject to tarrifs?

Yip! Because for a start, it’d be illegal.

Have you not googled Eu tarrifs?
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&spell=1&q=eu+tariffs&sa=X&ei=agUBUcmaMYSXhQeVm4HICQ&ved=0CCwQvwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41248874,d.d2k&fp=287e96e52b4ce49e&biw=960&bih=479
Not bought any bling bike bits or cheap lights from the US and noticed the Import taxes/tarrif?

They seem to not be illegal and we would not need a “single market” as the globe would be one

On what basis has Cameron abdicated any credibility and/or demonstrated a lack of fitness to govern?

The bit where he pandered to the closet racists and what Major called the Bastards in order to get elected?
I feel for him he has no choice but to do this but he is clearly a pro European.
One of the travesty of politics and focus group politics is we dont have leaders anymore we have followers of public opinion – i include all parties in that and agree Blair escalated this to the levels we now see.
He lost credibility as he kissed the rears of UKIP Tories in order to get elected even though he clearly finds them to be odious – as I said he has no choice really but its not admirable.

This all seems pretty credible to me and showing more fitness for government that many other current leaders.

Halo of impartiality is starting to slip and turn blue- not that anyone doubted this

And then, he turned the question over to the population to choose – and this is greeted with complaints over democracy! All very odd?

Remind me how he voted recently on whether to have an in or out vote? 2011 iirc – Binners left wing role model mentioned it parliament@ PMQ’s

The crisis affecting EU nations states and the failures of the current structure to deal with them are an even greater source of uncertainty preventing confidence returning to most parts of the economy.

The crises we seem to have stopped reading of this as they seem to have shown the political and economic will to back the currency no matter what. They seem to have dealt with it – never ever to your satisfaction and greater integration is clearly going to happen. Not sure how they could have been more certain to be honest and here you are priasing CMD for his lets decide in a bit “certainity” policy

The EU does make everyone who opposes it loose some sort of rationality

I find the arguments put fwd to be largely emmotive and factually innacurate coupled with words like CRISIS etc

No idea why the EU does this to folk tbh

And the reaction in Europe, especially, the immediate split between the dog and the tail. And the dog gets it straight away and recognises legitimate areas of change and compromise from the off.The tail does a little bit of harmless wagging.

Nope lost me there
What I heard was someone saying the UK joined a football team and now we want them all to play Rugby.
Not sure how the bringmanship will play out tbh but he is playing a dangerous game

The main folk want us to stay but not at any price.

Thanks for posting that as an interesting perspective.But I am uncertain why a former EU commissioner would prefer uncertainty to uncertainty? And this comes from the perfect case study – Ireland.

C’mon JY. Closets racists, going back to Major. Those are not arguments. And the crisis – are you serious? Eurostat published the latest debt figures yesterday, not good reading. Unemployment in the PIGS, Spain, Italy…..And Davos yesterday the IMF downgrades the outlook for the euro area forecasting further contraction in 2013. And this is not a crisis?

The crises we seem to have stopped reading of this as they seem to have shown the political and economic will to back the currency no matter what. They seem to have dealt with it – never ever to your satisfaction and greater integration is clearly going to happen.

You really think that the whole issue of the Euro as a currency has been ‘dealt with’ and resolved? Seriously? 😯

They’ve just kicked the can a slight way down the road by pouring billion after billion down a big black hole. Without any of its fundamental flaws being addressed. It’ll be back to bite them all on the arse soon enough! There’s nothing more certain! As the continuing economic car crash unfolds and gets worse, and worse, and worse for the whole of southern Europe. With some pretty unpleasant fall out for the rest of us.

As was pointed out earlier JY – how someone like you thinks that mass unemployment and plunging living standards, across a whole continent,are a price worth paying to prop up a totally flawed symbolic concept just makes no sense at all to me. I can’t work it out!

Farmers protection surely

Nothing to do with farming – it was about coal and steel, with the aim of trade between winning and losing nations in the war so that it could never happen again.

anyone see camerons speech about tax avoidance at Davos

And this is not a crisis?

It is not a criss caused by the Union. If its a crisis then pretty much the western world is in this criss not just the Euro zone.
Its just that on these threads you and Binners seem to forget this and blame the Euro for everything

C’mon JY. Closets racists, going back to Major. Those are not arguments

Perhaps you could explain why he has changed his mind in such a short time if he is not pandering to make himself electable. like I said he has little choice and i hardly flamed him for this.

It’ll be back to bite them all on the arse soon enough!

So you have been saying since about 2005 iirc.
As is said [ from about the same time]if they are willing to put enough political and economic clout behind it then they are able to ride it out. They seem to be willing to do this.

As was pointed out earlier JY – how someone like you thinks that mass unemployment and plunging living standards, across a whole continent,are a price worth paying* to prop up a totally flawed symbolic concept just makes no sense at all to me**. I can’t work it out!

Were only the euro zone in turmoil and facing a winter of discontent whilst the rest of the world bathed in sun then you would be making a point.
We are not in the Euro Binners and I belive you would have a pop at out current climate and the causes.
The reality is everyone is equally screwed but you two hate the euro so much you like to blame it for the entire “crisis”.

* a reference to Lamont [ CMD was his adviser iirc] on unemployment – its not my view

** I am not pro or anti Europe tbh – it has some good stuff and some bad stuff just like our own country. Its a mixed bag of some social contract type stuff mixed with some free market rhetoricI am sur eyou can guess which i prefer 😉

It is not a crisis caused by the Union. If its a crisis then pretty much the western world is in this criss not just the Euro zone.

Except the rest of the world, including us, are equipped with the economic tools to do something about it, through an independent national bank. But the fixed exchange rate has removed this ability from countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal – which is why their economies are doing – and will continue to – contract. They need to devalue their currency to make themselves competitive, but they can’t, because Frau Merkal won’t let them, because of the impact that would then have on Germany.

So it’ll just continue to get worse and worse and worse – higher unemployment, plummeting wages and living standards, until the EU is prepared to admit that this experiment has well and truly failed. Are they going to do this any time soon? Of course not! They can’t! So Europe’s terminal economic decline will continue apace

If we were not able to essentially print money, as the bank of England have repeatedly done, then christ only knows what our economy would look like now. It’d be in tatters!!!

I can’t see the ConLabLibs doing anything to restrict trade, just the rights of their own people.

+1

If you want real red-tape, you need to look no further than our civil servants and politicians.

of the 7 who joined it 5 applied for full EU membership – 3 joined and two rejected it in a referendum and 2 never tried.

Try reading what you reply to. I didn’t say “ex non-EU members”.

Oh, and how much more red tape do you think Norway has when trading with the EU compared to EU members? As I said, there is no reason why it should be particularly difficult or expensive to trade with the EU from outside it – the proof is that some countries are already doing so.

Some good reasoned arguments on this thread, good stuff!!

Some points from me.

1. The run up to the next election has begun, 1-0 to the Tories.
2. CMD is kicking the UKIP can down the road the wyly old goat!
3. The Germans are willing to talk which speaks volumes in itself.
4. The French aren’t happy.
5. The Germans don’t care what the French think as they want to form an alliance with the UK…
6. Trade with Europe will still continue if there is a Yes vote.
7. Europe is in terminal decline.
8. If Yes then we can legislate for ourselves.
9. Trade with the BRIC pack should be a priority and if we can legislate for ourselves I can see a lot of favourable terms…

having to arrange working visas for eu state employees would be a giant step backwards

loads of extra red tape for the hi-tech, research, finance industries etc

part of the reason business leaders are upset by this bit of little englander pandering by cmd

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/929ed456-654b-11e2-a3db-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fhome_europe%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct#axzz2IuUyiggY

My vote is Out!

Business will be able to adapt no problem.

But then I have no problem with In too …

OK, so here’s a philosophical question for all (no arguing about the realism of the question – it’s philosophical):

Would it be a good idea for us to be members of the EU if there was no single market, just all the other aspects of EU membership (ie CAP, CFP European parliament etc.) I’m curious given that the biggest objection to us leaving the EU is usually the negative impact it would have on our trading, and wondered what people think if you take that out of the equation.

But aracer, if I understand your question correctly, isnt the most important ECONOMIC argument is the idea of a single, free market? The Treaty of Rome (1957) was essentially about withdrawing tariffs and having common external ones. To take the core out of the question – philosophically or not – seems a little strange IMO. Take that away and just have the remainder and the vote issue would be very easy!

aracer i think everyone would vote to leave under those circumstances but its hard to see how we would have that scenario without harmonising tbh.

Its not on the table so it a mute point.

Try reading what you reply to.

Guilty as charged your honour apologies.

Oh, and how much more red tape do you think Norway has when trading with the EU compared to EU members?

I imagine none of us have a clue tbh on this fact. I accept your general point that trading need not involve any more red tape in general. In reality I dont know but doubt the difference is massive

As I said, there is no reason why it should be particularly difficult or expensive to trade with the EU from outside it

The EEA is based on the same “four freedoms” as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries. Thus, the EFTA countries that are part of the EEA enjoy free trade with the European Union.

As a counterpart, these countries have to adopt part of the Law of the European Union. These states have little influence on decision-making processes in Brussels.

The EFTA countries that are part of the EEA do not bear the financial burdens associated with EU membership, although they contribute financially to the European single market. After the EU/EEA enlargement of 2004, there was a tenfold increase in the financial contribution of the EEA States, in particular Norway, to social and economic cohesion in the Internal Market (€1167 million over five years).

EFTA countries do not receive any funding from EU policies and development funds.

Not sure this would satisfy the anti brigade or the pro – pay still but get nothing back and have no [political]say. Surely the worst of both worlds? Is this not part of the perceived eurozone problem [ – they may make rules the UK has no say over but has to deal with/implement to stay in.

But the fixed exchange rate has removed this ability from countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal – which is why their economies are doing – and will continue to – contract.

Its a bit more complicated than that
1. The fixed exchange rate refers to the old currencies and what they have to pay in bonds in those countries from historical loans in that currency
2. Are you really claiming that but for the Euro one these countries would be thriving? They have structural issues not related to EU membership
3. the large sums of monies their chums gave them helped them no end. 4.They would have been in trouble whether in the Euro or not
5.The Euro was not causal they owed loads and they could not pay up

I would argue the market had a pop at them safe in the knowledge the EU would pay up.

1. The run up to the next election has begun, 1-0 to the Tories.

EU only seems to be an issue to the Anti-EU brigade, generally doesn’t play a significant part in general elections.

2. CMD is kicking the UKIP can down the road the wyly old goat!

The fact that UKIP performed so badly demonstrates point one. All this is about keeping his party together.

3. The Germans are willing to talk which speaks volumes in itself.

Means little, you need the consent of all the other members, some who are not willing to negotiate.

4. The French aren’t happy.

Like I said some are not willing to negotiate. Anyway, the French are never happy…

5. The Germans don’t care what the French think as they want to form an alliance with the UK…

Don’t quite know where you get this idea from.

6. Trade with Europe will still continue if there is a Yes vote.

Yes it will, with import tarrifs, if anyone says EFTA, see junkyards post above, I shall post a bit here:

The EFTA countries that are part of the EEA do not bear the financial burdens associated with EU membership, although they contribute financially to the European single market. After the EU/EEA enlargement of 2004, there was a tenfold increase in the financial contribution of the EEA States, in particular Norway, to social and economic cohesion in the Internal Market (€1167 million over five years).

So, we still pay, we still have to adhere to some of their laws AND we don’t get a say. Marvellous.

7. Europe is in terminal decline.

The grass isn’t particularly green on this side of the channel either. Certainly won’t be if we Leave the EU.

8.If Yes then we can legislate for ourselves.

Erm, we do that anyway.

9. Trade with the BRIC pack should be a priority and if we can legislate for ourselves I can see a lot of favourable terms…

So trade with Russia and it’s vote rigging? Also, a few British companies have fallen foul of Russian hospitality?

Brazil and India, who want to trade with us for our know how and “transfer of technology”, so when they can build it themselves, why would they need us?

China, we’ve been trading with them anyway. We have little to gain as they’ve nicked our know how and technology regardless.

We could negotiate with them, but as a little country, I suspect the terms will not favour us greatly. This may sound controversial, but we could remain part of that big trading bloc and get them to negotiate for us. If only I could remember their name…EO..EA, or something…

I find this whole “Germany willing to negotiate” business amusing. Some of you clearly believe that the EU is undemocratic, by thinking that if Germany stamps it’s foot everyone else falls into line, they may have Greece in their pockets literally, but not all the members. Every member will have a say, which is why I believe Cameron will not get his way, he probably knows this, its problems at home which has caused this debate, which leads me onto Woppits drivel on the previous page.

Cameron is a coward. He couldn’t stand up to his own backbenchers and has set us on a dangerous path which if he is re-elected will lead us one way: withdrawal.

We were on a nice little earner as well. We weren’t in the Euro, we had access to a free market of peer competitors, we opted out of some of the laws, we had a say in the matters that mattered to us. We had the veto. His cowardice could lead to an end of all of this.

I expect the Anti-EU lunatics to slag this off because, well, you are lunatics after all.

The Germans are willing to talk which speaks volumes in itself

I think you are confusing talk[public diplomacy] with change their mind – see the religious thread at page 21 of talking with not one changing of opinion.

aracer i think everyone would vote to leave under those circumstances but its hard to see how we would have that scenario without harmonising tbh.

Interesting. So even you think we would be better off as a member of the EEA outside the EU (note the lack of question mark – that’s a statement). Because the difference between being a member of the EU and being a member of EEA outside the EU is simply all the stuff other than the single market. Members of the EEA participate in the single market in just the same way we do. In a way I’m actually a bit disappointed you didn’t pick up on the trick in that question 😈

Not sure this would satisfy the anti brigade or the pro – pay still but get nothing back and have no [political]say. Surely the worst of both worlds? Is this not part of the perceived eurozone problem [ – they may make rules the UK has no say over but has to deal with/implement to stay in.

Yes – I noticed that issue, that Norway et al still pay into the EU. I have to admit I don’t know a lot of the details about that (I presume you don’t either – would be grateful for any more details if you do), however my naive take on that is that they pay in a vast amount less than we do. Also note that it’s not the case that they have no say – “However Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway also contribute to and influence the formation of new EEA relevant policies and legislation at an early stage as part of a formal decision-shaping process” http://www.efta.int/~/media/Files/Publications/Bulletins/eeadecisionshaping-bulletin.pdf Not ideal, but it might be better than the situation we have currently where we theoretically have a say, but in reality it’s impossible for us to stop the juggernaut anyway.

Oh, and thanks for the apology and the general spirit of reasoned debate in your latest reply. It’s refreshing to be able to discuss this without the usual rhetoric (and my apologies if I’m busy spouting any!)

Interesting to see the latest German take on the cowardly (sic) Herr Cameron. From Das Bild, “Most EU countries have tacitly agreed to build Europe above the heads of the people. The European project is simply too important for democratic participation. And then along comes this Cameron!”

So if Das Bild is taking the proverbial out of Cameron’s critics, that tells you something. Good contrast with Blair who promised a referendum and then backed down (or was that Clegg??) and then used the analogy of Blazing Saddles yesterday ie, consulting the dreadful people is tantamount to political suicide!! And Milliband is essentially following the same tack – or is he, hard to tell!

And all this as Spain’s unemployment rate hits 27%, and specifically unemployment in the under 25’s hits 60%! 😯

But lets just plough on with ‘The Project’, regardless of the consequences, on the ground, for real peoples lives

but THM cast iron dave already promised a referendum and backed down once

2015 is a long way off, a lot could happen by then; nuclear iran, war in north africa, north korea, a russian spring and maybe just maybe an improved economic situation in europe

Kimbers, well learning from our mistakes is one of the great lessons in life! 😉 But I agree that 2015/17 is a long way off and lots will happen in Europe. Not least, the populations of S Europe will rise up (metaphorically and possibly literally) against the pain that is being artificially imposed on them.

JY is correct that there are issues other than the lack of FX flexibility that are causing problems in the PIIGS, but an old Econ prof used to illustrate the macro economic system in a series of water pipes with release valves. If you close of all the valves, and increase the water pressure, what happens……? Think of the other issues as the drivers of pressure and the exchange rate as one of the release valves and the metaphor becomes very apt!

So even you think we would be better off as a member of the EEA outside the EU

I think most folk in the UK would prefer all the benefits of the free market and none of the penalties of harmonisation, which is what you asked. however even with the EEA they have to harmonise with some laws. I dont think you have proved what you think you have tbh as the EEA is not free from harmonisation it is just free from voting on harmonisation – i cant see the euro sceptic preferring this option tbh nor the pro european.

Oh, and thanks for the apology and the general spirit of reasoned debate in your latest reply. It’s refreshing to be able to discuss this without the usual rhetoric

**** you 😉
Yes we all soapbox on here and we all get stuff wrong so better to be an honest fool than a dishonest idiot 😉

Good contrast with Blair who promised a referendum and then backed down (or was that Clegg??) and then used the analogy of Blazing Saddles yesterday ie, consulting the dreadful people is tantamount to political suicide!! And Milliband is essentially following the same tack – or is he, hard to tell!

Not even you can think CMD is doing this out of principle or some sort of belief. He is doing it to pander to the closet racists in order to make himself more electable with the “little englanders” and stop his party loosing voters to UKIP [ as i said earlier he ha sno choice he ha sbeen forced into this to stay “electable” to the right]. Your attempt to present it as anything other than this is pure spin – its BS and you know it. Having a political view is fine but doing this is rather tragic and an attempt to present it as principle is frankly laughable – remind me how long age it was that he voted to not have a referendum on this issue?

Binners NOT EVERYTHING ECONOMICALLY IS DOWN TO THE EURO – this is like the way some folk blame Labour for the economy and ignore the global crisis caused by the American sub prime mortgage collapse.

the populations of S Europe will rise up (metaphorically and possibly literally) against the pain that is being artificially imposed on them.

Yes out the Euro zone they would be awash with money, their books would balance,they could service their debts, no one would need to pay tax, there would be no unemployment and milk and honey would flow from the taps. Why do the anti just repeat this tosh?
you see something bad, see its in the Euro zone and TADA it the fault of the Euro. Its not like the UK has done brilliantly now is it under GO[ I assume you read the IMF report but GO has no plan B]. I note he also tries to blame the Euro one though for this 😉

I am really not so sure why you are both so fixated on the Fixed exchange rate. Its only fixed in relation to their defunct currencies in terms of paying for old bonds. I think the uncertainty within the markets if there was an exchange rate for an non existent currency was something worth avoiding and not sure how this would be a real market anyway _ THM can you have an exchange rate for a non existent currency [ genuine question]?

Fixated because (1) I understand labour-market economies and (2) because I see what the lack of flexibility is doing to the people of S Europe (sorry, have done a lot of business there especially Greece and Portugal).

Please quit the spin and BS stuff, that is just silly. To quash such nonsense just compare the attitutes of the UK and France to Indian companies (Tata and Mittal) and then start wondering about racism/protectionism etc. Ditto, the PIIGs will not recover without massive fiscal transfers (open rather than hidden as now) from the N to the S. Again, ask yourself why the populations of the N are unwilling to do this? But then again, you may be right about the politics given what just happend in Saxony. So Frau Merkel is now just going to be pandering to her Kleine Deutsche from now on!!!

The lack of reform in Europe and the incorrect choice of policy options in the PIIGS (the same ones that many of you deride in the UK) has implications for the whole of the global economy. We are living with a massive over-leverage hangover that will still take may years to work out, we don’t need structural errors or inappropriate policies to compound this. At least Cameron is getting started on one of these! So I will laud him for the one success and continue to criticise the policy failures (as per….)

Binners NOT EVERYTHING ECONOMICALLY IS DOWN TO THE EURO

I know that. It’s not the cause of the problem, true. I never said it was. But since the economic crash, the lack of flexibility that the straightjacket of a fixed exchange rate ensures, is grinding the economies of Southern Europe into the ground! And without structural reform to the whole thing, then I’m afraid there’s only one direction of travel. Terminal decline.

Which makes the impotence, fudging and general crossing-of-fingers-and-hoping-for-the-best in Brussels all the more inexplicable

Anyway… this could all become academic soon enough. Do you really think that 20-30% unemployment rates across a continent, and plummeting real incomes for those in employment, are going to be tolerated by tens of millions of people for too much longer? As economies continue to contract yet further at an alarming rate, without any sign of improvement? All while Europe’s ‘Leaders*’ endlessly procrastinate, and dither, while pouring billions into a huge black hole of their own making?

* The word is used figuratively in this instance, and does not imply any actual leadership, or ability to take any decisions

There should be a basic test people have to fill in before voting in referenda. The debate in this country is far too skewed by our rabid tabloid press and very few people bother to find out even rudimentary info.

And all this as Spain’s unemployment rate hits 27%, and specifically unemployment in the under 25’s hits 60%!
But lets just plough on with ‘The Project’, regardless of the consequences, on the ground, for real peoples lives

Is that all the fault of the EU then?

I think most folk in the UK would prefer all the benefits of the free market and none of the penalties of harmonisation, which is what you asked. however even with the EEA they have to harmonise with some laws. I dont think you have proved what you think you have tbh as the EEA is not free from harmonisation it is just free from voting on harmonisation

Only harmonisation on laws relating to the single market, which tends to be all fairly sensible stuff nobody objects to. Not the sort of harmonisation which people have a problem with. Also as discussed, it’s not the case that Norway et al have no vote on such matters. It really is as simple as the difference being all the other aspects of EU membership apart from the single market.

I bet if it was explained to people properly what being in the EEA but outside the EU meant that such an option would get a majority in a referendum.