EU Referendum – are you in or out?

TAKE THIS LOVELY DISCUSSION ABOUT LABOUR POLICY IN GENERAL TO ANOTHER THREAD PLEASE

worker representation on boards – like in Germany? Workers owning part of the companies – like in Germany?

When companies are sold giving the workforce the right to buy? hardly radical

Those aren’t co-operative, you are obfuscating. My company has that, it’s still very much a corporate.

hardly forced

Yeah just forced at a state approved price.

That article quite clearly states how and why capital would run a **** mile. Then you are going to have to try and convince people to trade with you.

Good luck, it sounds as mental as the ERG. You’ve also failed to respond to my argument that it wouldn’t even help counter the reasons for our dropping living standards.

TAKE THIS LOVELY DISCUSSION ABOUT LABOUR POLICY IN GENERAL TO ANOTHER THREAD PLEASE

It ties in with this thread – the need to stay in the EU etc.

SO Maybot has hoofed the can down the road

& the Tory moderates have bought into it, nicely, while the ERG headbangers know that theyre hand is just the same, if not strengthened

Farage is interesting. He knows full well if Brexit happens, his new party is a dead duck. If we hold a referendum & he won’t campaign, he increases remain chance, and gives him a banner to fly in politics.

I really hope the IG has legs. I’ve been desperate for a moderate party for years. I will never forgive any of the main parties for Brexit. Personally, I’m also a big fan of PR. The whole “I win you lose” politics thing is awful & leads to short termism. Politics should be about consensus, not huge populist swings. If we could all vote for a party we believed in, rather than just a red v blue choice, we would end up with much better MPs.

Even Farage doesn’t want to leave anymore

In fairness to the arsehole he is simply saying he doesnt agree with maybots proposal and, I assume, would prefer a hard brexit option to be on the voting paper.

See, this is another thing he’s full of shit on.

If it’s a 3-way Hard/Maybot/Remain – remain wins easily because it splits the leave vote between the Nutters/Sod it, we’ve come this far/Remoaners

If it’s a 2 way between Hard/Remain remain wins easily because it’s only the really the nutters who think it’ll all be a Spitfires over Dover return to a past that never really existed and the We can all work in factories comrades who vote for a hard brexit over remain.

Not even he’s enough of a muppet to think we can just reset the clock, drag the EU into an completely new negotiation and some how come out better off ‘because reasons’.

The problem for the Farages / Johnsons and JRMs is that, we’ve reached the logical conclusion of negotiating with an better organised opponent who has more cards to play than us. The deal doesn’t deliver very much of what they promised, equally if we flounce, even if we don’t pay what we owe (which we said we wouldn’t) we’re out of the G8 in months and into a recession that will make the 2008 ‘Great Recession’ look small.

The only card they can play now is “We’d have done it better” – if we crash out, it’s may fault because “We’d have done it better” if we take Maybot Deal and when it makes a detrimental affect on our economy / lifestyles and freedom of movement “We’d have done it better” if, which is seeming more likely by the day, we end up with Ref2 “We’d have done it better” so unlike Corbyn and May, they could actually come out of this looking better than when it started and spend the rest of their careers making empty threats about breaking up the EU.

I like the bit about needing a certain level of turnout for a referendum and he’s happy to admit we didn’t.

But democracy, will of (some of) the people, betrayal etc etc.

Oxygen thief.

Labour is braced for a backlash from shadow ministers and backbenchers angry at the party’s plans to support an amendment for a second EU referendum, with several of them warning they would defy the whip in order to sink the plan.

The Grauniad

As I keep on stating labour is hopelessly split over this. Its not Corbyn pushing for a hard brexit. Its Corbyn attempting to hold the party together

The high-profile backbenchers Stephen Kinnock, Lucy Powell and Caroline Flint are among the others who would be highly likely to oppose a second referendum amendment. Powell said she believed at least 25 MPs would vote against any whip to back another referendum.

The Labour MP John Mann, a Brexit supporter, criticised the party’s “absurd” shift to support a second referendum. “Voters won’t have it. The last person to renege on their manifesto was Nick Clegg. It didn’t end very well for him on tuition fees,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

Caroline Flint – I seem to remember folk on here suggesting she should be leader.

Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable

You usually refer to him as a far left extremist. Make your mind up! Alternatively, post another inane picture and insult the members of the party you can’t be bothered to join.

Uncle Jezza is me not Corbyn!

Uncle Jezza is me not Corbyn!

My apologies! I was forgetting that Corbyn is referred to as grandpa. A sign of maturity from these supposed moderates, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Have we had the leaked memo yet?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/world/europe/brexit-theresa-may-brussels.html

Each mission has ended without a deal, or even a hint of progress, leaving baffled observers to wonder what, exactly, Mrs. May and European officials talk about in these get-togethers. Now, a confidential document summarizing a Feb. 7 meeting from the European side has offered up an answer: “Nothing.”

The readout shows that Mrs. May used the Feb. 7 meeting with the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, to once again request something that has repeatedly been rejected: a time limit on the so-called backstop provision concerning the Irish border, which as it stands could keep Britain in the European Union’s customs union indefinitely.

Ms. May suggested there was a possible alternative, but apparently did not offer any details about what that might be. “May did not explain what she meant by alternative arrangements to the backstop. Not at all,” the document states.

“At this point, there is only room for discussion inside Britain, but not with us,” the Feb. 7 summary read, underscoring the conclusion that Ms. May’s problems were domestic, political and unlikely to be resolved by talking to European leaders.

After talking to Mr. Juncker, Mrs. May met Donald Tusk, president of the European Council. The document describes that meeting as “Mostly a repeat of the conversation with Juncker.”

So what is an extension for if the same people are going to continue to repeat the same things – might be a conclusion the EU comes to.

The EU have made it clear that an extension would be granted if needed if there was a rtesolution on the horizon, a change of government or a proposal for another referendum or something similar. They will NOT accept a extension for simply more can kicking

Uncle Jezza is me not Corbyn!

Now there’s fame for ya

Hmm.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/02/26/may-s-article-50-extension-is-a-trick-to-take-us-to-the-real

Hmm.

Whilst worrying that does strike me as crediting May as being a better strategist then the evidence supports. She doesnt seem to manage tactical decisions let alone this sort of level.
Her main talent as a politician seems to be blame dodging eg how Amber Rudd got tossed under the wheels for Mays policies as Home Secretary. Not to be dismissed and I am sure many overpromoted idiots will be praying they have the same talent but it doesnt come across as strategic genius just bare faced guilt dodging.

So what is an extension for if the same people are going to continue to repeat the same things – might be a conclusion the EU comes to.

How long does it typically take the UK to hold a General Election?

So GE, plus a couple of months then the ERG’s nomination for Tory Leader can go and have the same conversation, but this time He (it’s not going to be a she is it) will shout at them. It’s the only way to get through to Johnny Foreigner!

The EU elections is a piece of humbuggery. Two solutiuons have been suggested to hold elections anyway even if we might leave after a few months and sim0ly continue with the same MSPs without elections.

I am back to getting really cross about this as its obvious that the majority of mps want a sensible solution either a second ref or the softest of soft brexits but too many tories put party before country and too many labour are dimwits that think we should “respect the referendum” even to the point of not rerunning it.

And as they bugger about the country is steadily more damaged.

Her main talent as a politician seems to be blame dodging

Well she was known as the ‘submarine’ before she became PM.

Difficult questions? Sorry I’m going on holiday. It still rings true.

Dive dive dive!

Not exactly the traits you want to see as the leader of anything.

brexits but too many tories put party before country and too many labour are dimwits that think we should “respect the referendum” even to the point of not rerunning it.

Careful there TJ, you’ll be agreeing with me and Binners next 😀 😛

I agree with you on a lot of things. However your insistence that Corbyn wants a hard brexit is sheer piffle

The EU elections is a piece of humbuggery. Two solutiuons have been suggested to hold elections anyway even if we might leave after a few months and sim0ly continue with the same MSPs without elections.

I don’t think it’s that simple…it’s my understanding that the number of MEPs from other countries has been increased to take up our quota

Comments are funny mtbing brexiters not liking that bike parts in the EU getting more expensive thanks to Brexit

(Sorry for horrendous FB link)

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I am back to getting really cross about this

It’s the British way.

thanks for that kimbers, i really must avoid reading comments. The level of crap being spouted, the complete failure to understand how the world works and the repetition of lies is depressing. What i am noticing is the huge disparity between Twitter and Facebook, Facebook seems to contain far higher percentage of morons?

I don’t think it’s that simple…it’s my understanding that the number of MEPs from other countries has been increased to take up our quota

That is the the least of the issues, the parliamentary act that covered the euro elections has been repealed already so would need to be re-enacted.

As MEPs are elected for 5 year terms, how about we extend Article 50 for 5 years as well. Then everyone’s happy.

Or not.

Blokes on a forum changing the world again.

How about you tell us the Brexit positives then.

Im not sure that philxx1975 can do much more than troll on brexit

id love to be proved wrong tho, phill?

Im not sure that philxx1975 can do much more than troll on brexit

id love to be proved wrong tho, phill?

Is he back? The killfile is really good for this sort of thing.

Not that I am saying I have killfiled phil (I still like the idea of him wasting energy to try to troll me if he is a bit unsure about whether I can see his nonsense or not). Or maybe, I have…..

Now this is what I call ‘Taking Back Control’.

DHL

NHS

NDB

FFS

!!!

and in other news a tory pps is sacked for proposing to ring fence the rights of EU citizens an hour after a minister supported the amendment.

So much for the nasty party being friendly and cuddly.

Why do seemingly everyone, across all parties & the political spectrum (including the media), doggedly hang on to the phrase “it’s the will of the people”, when only 37% of eligible voters actually voted to leave?

From, the 75th Brexit thread that just got close.

In short – forget the 37% thing, if you don’t vote your opinion counts for nothing, doesn’t matter which side of the fence you sit, if you don’t vote you can only blame yourself. 52% of people who counted, voted to leave.

As for why Leavers say it? Simply put they want to win and there’s a chance they’ll lose Ref2.

Ref1 was botched IMHO, it allowed a situation whereby Remain could only sell the truth “Things are getting better in the economy, we do very well out of the EU, things will be worse if we leave” unfortunately this was coming from the very people who’d be blaming the EU for every bit of bad news they didn’t fancy taking the blame for, for decades.

Leave on the other hand could promise ANYTHING they wanted to, and they did, it was going to be easy, it was going to be brilliant, it was going to save the NHS, it was going to make us all rich, we’d keep the Single Market because we’d be mad not to, we’d be able to visit and live anywhere we wanted to in Europe because we’re special, but at the same time we’d stop anyone else coming here – after all all those scary looking people hiding in the back of lorries are allowed to sneak in because ‘Barmy Brussels’ and if we didn’t leave Turkey was going to join because we were powerless to stop it and they’d all come here and claim a free house and £5k a week in Benefits and lots of them are MUSLIMS and you know Sharia Law!!

Ref2 would be simpler, stop this painful madness and go back to how it was, or well, see the previous 1528 pages for details.

Leave on the other hand could promise ANYTHING they wanted to, and they did, it was going to be easy

The different leave campaigns also did well here. Since they could promise completely contradictory things to each other.

The reason “the will of the people” mantra is so popular still is that now all the wishful thinking, sunny uplands, cake and unicorns and outright lies have been shown to be just that over the last three years, it’s the only argument they’ve got left for still going ahead with it.

The irony of course being that this is almost certainly a lie now too, and probably was at the time of the referendum. It’s been used to effectively try and silence half of the voters: 17 million yays is “the will of the people” and must be obeyed at all costs, 16 million nays is “screw those guys, we won you lost get over it.”

This is why they’re so shit scared of another referendum. Deep down they know it’s a lie and they are terrified that they’ll lose. If they genuinely believed brexit was “the will of the people” then they’d be campaigning hard for another referendum just to teach us remoaners a lesson and finally shut us up for good. The fact that they aren’t doing so tells you all you need to know about the actual will of the people.

Surely on something as significant as this there should have been a stipulated minimum (or even obligatory) turn out for the result to be binding.

Ah, see, you’re late to the party. It’s Schrodinger’s Referendum here. The referendum is only binding when it helps Leave.

It was an advisory referendum, an opinion poll. There is no provision in our democracy for any other kind (and if it was it’d have surely required a supermajority, look at how elections work).
This has been corrupted into something that HAS to be carried out (another lie), yet is still conveniently advisory when it’s challenged in court. If the vote result was mandatory then it would’ve been overturned a couple of weeks ago, but it isn’t, so it wasn’t, but we still have to obey it anyway.

No, me neither.

The whole sorry affair has been an absolute masterclass in propaganda wars and misdirection which would put that little bloke in Germany in the late 1930s to shame. When this all comes out in the wash – as it surely will in 10, 20, 30 years time maybe – it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if a good number of people will be going to jail for a very long time for their part in the wilful gross manipulation and deceit of the British public.

HoC has just voted against  the SNP motion that No Deal should be completely ruled out. I guess that’s as good a sign as any of what’s happening in four weeks time.

Equally the amendment to guarantee rights of EU citizen in UK and vice versa was waved through with no vote, so that’s something.

The Cooper amendment next will be interesting…

tjagain

Member

I agree with you on a lot of things. However your insistence that Corbyn wants a hard brexit is sheer piffle

I think Corbyn absolutely wants it. He just knows it’s an incredibly bad idea so he’s not doing it. I want to slap one of my colleagues but I’m yet to do it.