EU Referendum – are you in or out?

yes Binners you are right but the Daily Fail and Sexpress sell shed loads more papers to voters than any other printed bog paper.

1. a brake on benefit payments to EU nationals working here- ban apply to 2027 – cannot be extended but not retrospectively applied. future ones to be index linked to country they reside.
2. city of london protected so it can still be the centre of money laundering and tax evasion remain the powerhouse for the UK
3. Treaty change so UK not committed to ever closer union

One only has to look at the grey hair ratio (or extend of hair dye) and howit increases rapidly to realise that PMs work bloody hard and are under a lot of stress. Basic salary is hardly worth it, hence the (undignified if understandable)!dash for cash afterwards.

They don’t do it for the salary/expenses, and never have – do you really think that folk from the backgrounds of Cameron, Osbourne and Boris would do it just the for £100k (or even £200k with all expenses etc) pa?

Power my friend.

What a lot of this debate ignores is the amount of funding the EU creates for everything from University research to small business to social enterprise projects.

@fin we are a net contributer to the EU, they are just giving back to us a portion of our own money

@Growie, it was the first one that came to mind. How about an EU army and one that can be deployed to police the borders of member countries without their right of veto – note this was discussed as the EU wanted to be able to OPEN the borders to migrants of countries who had sought to slow/divert migrants. Armed forces of another country on your land with no right to prevent it ? How about the €300bn gift to Greece which now acts as a rope around Europes neck, Greece will default, the EU will be forced to put even more money in against the wishes of many countries as they’ve been outvoted ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

This will affect us as EU contributions are calculated on the relative strengths of economies so when the euro zone truely tanks as a result our contributions will go up a lot.

I keep asking but never get answered.
Are we the only country with a strong OUT feeling? What makes the EU so much better for the French than us?
How much has the EU been responsible for peace in Europe. A war between France and Germany now seems impossible.

Denmark is fairly hostile to the EU afaik.

@zippy there is growing disquiet about the EU throughout Europe. The policies of Le Penn/FN in France are heavily euroskeptic but stop short of a full exit

A very thoughtfull statement released today. I imagine some here won’t bother to read it when they see who its from

Statement from Michael Gove MP, Secretary of State for Justice, on the EU Referendum

Immediate release, 20 February 2016

For weeks now I have been wrestling with the most difficult decision of my political life. But taking difficult decisions is what politicians are paid to do. No-one is forced to stand for Parliament, no-one is compelled to become a minister. If you take on those roles, which are great privileges, you also take on big responsibilities.

I was encouraged to stand for Parliament by David Cameron and he has given me the opportunity to serve in what I believe is a great, reforming Government. I think he is an outstanding Prime Minister. There is, as far as I can see, only one significant issue on which we have differed.

And that is the future of the UK in the European Union.

It pains me to have to disagree with the Prime Minister on any issue. My instinct is to support him through good times and bad.

But I cannot duck the choice which the Prime Minister has given every one of us. In a few months time we will all have the opportunity to decide whether Britain should stay in the European Union or leave. I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU. And if, at this moment of decision, I didn’t say what I believe I would not be true to my convictions or my country.

I don’t want to take anything away from the Prime Minister’s dedicated efforts to get a better deal for Britain. He has negotiated with courage and tenacity. But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.

But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out. We can take out our anger on elected representatives in Westminster but whoever is in Government in London cannot remove or reduce VAT, cannot support a steel plant through troubled times, cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed and cannot deport all the individuals who shouldn’t be in this country. I believe that needs to change. And I believe that both the lessons of our past and the shape of the future make the case for change compelling.

The ability to choose who governs us, and the freedom to change laws we do not like, were secured for us in the past by radicals and liberals who took power from unaccountable elites and placed it in the hands of the people. As a result of their efforts we developed, and exported to nations like the US, India, Canada and Australia a system of democratic self-government which has brought prosperity and peace to millions.

Our democracy stood the test of time. We showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.

Far from providing security in an uncertain world, the EU’s policies have become a source of instability and insecurity. Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria. The former head of Interpol says the EU’s internal borders policy is “like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe” and Scandinavian nations which once prided themselves on their openness are now turning in on themselves. All of these factors, combined with popular anger at the lack of political accountability, has encouraged extremism, to the extent that far-right parties are stronger across the continent than at any time since the 1930s.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time. It was developed in the 1950s and 1960s and like other institutions which seemed modern then, from tower blocks to telexes, it is now hopelessly out of date. The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation. It is an analogue union in a digital age.

The EU is built to keep power and control with the elites rather than the people. Even though we are outside the euro we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before. This growing EU bureaucracy holds us back in every area. EU rules dictate everything from the maximum size of containers in which olive oil may be sold (five litres) to the distance houses have to be from heathland to prevent cats chasing birds (five kilometres).

Individually these rules may be comical. Collectively, and there are tens of thousands of them, they are inimical to creativity, growth and progress. Rules like the EU clinical trials directive have slowed down the creation of new drugs to cure terrible diseases and ECJ judgements on data protection issues hobble the growth of internet companies. As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer.

It is hard to overstate the degree to which the EU is a constraint on ministers’ ability to do the things they were elected to do, or to use their judgment about the right course of action for the people of this country. I have long had concerns about our membership of the EU but the experience of Government has only deepened my conviction that we need change. Every single day, every single minister is told: ‘Yes Minister, I understand, but I’m afraid that’s against EU rules’. I know it. My colleagues in government know it. And the British people ought to know it too: your government is not, ultimately, in control in hundreds of areas that matter.

But by leaving the EU we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative to the path the EU is going down. We can show leadership. Like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back, we can become an exemplar of what an inclusive, open and innovative democracy can achieve.

We can take back the billions we give to the EU, the money which is squandered on grand parliamentary buildings and bureaucratic follies, and invest it in science and technology, schools and apprenticeships. We can get rid of the regulations which big business uses to crush competition and instead support new start-up businesses and creative talent. We can forge trade deals and partnerships with nations across the globe, helping developing countries to grow and benefiting from faster and better access to new markets.

We are the world’s fifth largest economy, with the best armed forces of any nation, more Nobel Prizes than any European country and more world-leading universities than any European country. Our economy is more dynamic than the Eurozone, we have the most attractive capital city on the globe, the greatest “soft power” and global influence of any state and a leadership role in NATO and the UN. Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.

This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to leave an EU mired in the past and embrace a better future.

ENDS

Ah, I see he aspires to be like the USA. That’s something to look forward to then.

we have the most attractive capital city on the globe,

Yeah right.

Anyway, I’ll just leave this here

Even though I am no fan of Gove I did read the above.

Typically well written. However…….

I stiil disagree with him.

This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to stay within the EU and not get mired in the longing for a fictional rose tinted past of empire and embrace a better future within a reformed EU

I also can’t stand Gove and read all of that well written piece, and have concluded that i’ll take my chances with the EU rather than Gove’s US inspired Tory utopia.

The EU have once again failed to adapt and change in any real meaningful way… CAP and all the money wasted.
Spain and the treatment of Gibraltar
BSE and the actions of the French in particular

We have given them many, many opportunities to amend and modernise.

Time to say Ciao, methinks

Are some people actually basing their decision in part based on those that are saying no?!

Who cares where Gove or the UKip chap stand. Im no fan of theirs and even Peter Sutcliffe’s viewpoint on this topic wouldn’t even enter my thoughts for one second.

Base your decision on when Greece demands more money again. What happens with Spain or Italy’s economy/health and direct factors that will affect us.

Post- yes vote, do you really think it’ll all be rosey with the MEPs knowing we are stuck in for the longhaul now?

YOUr reasons are hardly the most rational

FWIw my decision wa sin part based on those who want out

I cannot see myself on their side on any issue and if i am I am probably wrong as you saying leave also suggests 😉

Jambalaya,

I get that we’re a net contributor, that’s not really what concerns me.
What I am most concerned about is that, at present, a very large amount of EU money is invested in a very large amount of projects, businesses and social enterprises in the UK (and by the UK, I mean all of it, not just London and the South East). Many of these projects are being funded by the EU largely because our own government won’t fund them.
Do you really think that Dave and his mates will continue to fund all of these projects with the money saved from leaving?
My bet is that they will squander it all away with vote winning drops in VAT and tax breaks for their mates.
Every time I ask any of the “out” group about anything remotely specific, all I seem to get is the same old “net contributor”, “ever closer union” and migration bollocks.
We are part of a massive administrative system that works on many complex levels. Please can one of you explain to me (like I’m an idiot if you like) what we would actually do to replace all the current good that parts of our EU membership actually do for us?

@Growie, it was the first one that came to mind. How about an EU army and one that can be deployed to police the borders of member countries without their right of veto – note this was discussed as the EU wanted to be able to OPEN the borders to migrants of countries who had sought to slow/divert migrants. Armed forces of another country on your land with no right to prevent it ?

But of course, it didn’t happen, and won’t happen because for it to happen would require all countires to agree to it. As I said, they’ve talked about it but nothing has happened that represents “ever closer political union”

How about the €300bn gift to Greece which now acts as a rope around Europes neck, Greece will default, the EU will be forced to put even more money in against the wishes of many countries as they’ve been outvoted ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

I’d think its more a milestone around Greece’s neck than the EU’s. Although it may have been a bad way out of a bad situation in no way does this represent “ever closer political union”.

Are some people actually basing their decision in part based on those that are saying no?!

I don’t like Gove because apart from some of the things he has done in minor prison reform as Justice secretary I fundamentally disagree with his approach to most matters as he has explained them.
I don’t like IDS as …. well the list is too long to put down here , but again I fundamentally disagree with his approach.

The main trouble with both of the above is that they are willing, like Jeremy Hunt, to continue to ignore sound statistical and evidence based information that repudiates their position purely on ideological grounds. If that can do this with things that I have personal experience of than how can I trust them on matters that I am less well versed in?

I don’t like Nige because I think contrary to what he spouts he is just in it for himself first with everybody else a distant second.
Don’t get me started on George Galloway…

So to answer your question it is at least in part because the leave campaign has attracted this calibre of people that I personally have no time for that I wish to stay in, but only a small part. It is confirmation if you like that my thoughts about the reasons for staying are correct having read and listened to plenty on various media from all sides of the debate.

I’ve decided that my vote will be based on the implications for the 100Euro’s stashed in our holiday folder.

So, would Brexit mean our small pile of Euro’s go up or down in value?

Greece is/was essentially a failure of the € not the EU and they should not be confused – except by those seeking to distort the truth. (Of course, there were other factors). No one can moan about money going back to Greece that is simply the balancing act on the capital account – econ 101

The lose of sovereignty is also massively overstated IMO.

With/without Dave we are in a great position at the heart of one of the world’s most important economic/trade zones, in a period of no wars between us, and with unique arrangements that avoid many of the downsides of the Euro project. It’s amazing what people ae prepared to throw away on the basis of the kind of crap that UKIP spout. But as the Scottish referendum showed its what you get people to believe that counts, not what is actually true.

I foresee a rather dispiriting few months.

Gove’s last shot at getting back in the running post CMD? Why do parties miss the obvious fact that some people just are not cut out for the top job. Leave that to Labour at the moment.

The Spain/Gibraltar dispute doesn’t have much to do with the EU and it’s up to the UK and Spain to solve it.

I would have been in, but after Greece I am seriously concerned about sovereignty.

Now I am undecided.

Common agricultural policy takes up 40% of EU budget. Agriculture makes up less than 2% of EU GDP.

yes, but you buy subsidised food.

Common agricultural policy takes up 40% of EU budget. Agriculture makes up less than 2% of EU GDP.

But the total EU budget is about 1% of the total EU GDP. So the amount spent on agriculture is about 0.4% of total GDP. And a large proportion of that is spent in a way that’s designed to look after the countryside, rather than subsidising production. Now whether that’s too much or not is a different story, but its not as dramatic as the figures you quote might suggest.

If Gove (and the Govt) can’t achieve what he states in his letter, then resign and let us elect someone you can – and stop blaming someone else for your failures.

Agriculture has to be preserved and maintained beyond what would be required for other industries. It might be cheaper to import all our food from China but it would not be a good idea.

I’d rather no subsidies. It would enable a fair playing field for farmers from developing countries aswell. But honestly my main beef with subsidies is that wealthy landowners can claim them just for owning land that is farmable.

Just had dinner with a couple fed by the Mail and the Torygraph – suffice to say we did not agree on EU! The amount of stuff they have/had swallowed was worrying

Its going to make the scottish debate look like the more factual one

the out camp

I’m sure the scotch nationalists will be able to show Gove how to be gracious losers

you don’t simply claim CAP payments for owning land – it wasn’t landowner’s decision to decouple CAP payments from production and shift / link payments to environmental management – look up the BPS scheme rules for England or Wales etc. I’d also sooner have my food produced to UK/EU standards rather than those than say from the US etc.

we are in a great position at the heart of one of the world’s most important economic/trade zones, in a period of no wars between us, and with unique arrangements that avoid many of the downsides of the Euro project. It’s amazing what people ae prepared to throw away on the basis of the kind of crap that UKIP spout.

Pretty much the nail on the head I think. There are many things wrong with the EU, but if you’re going to play the game, you need to be at the table. This debate really does make strange bedfellows. At least I have the comfort of still disagreeing with Jamba. 🙂

Prediction: Cameron gone on the 24th June. And bizarrely I don’t particularly like that scenario.

I agree with THM and dazh above.

Hypothetical: if you’re a Tory MP with no particular convictions apart from the desire to have power, which way do you go on this? Your party is about to rip itself to bits. How do you come out smelling of roses?

And then the same question for the Labour MPs…

tory- support the pm yet have as low a profile as possible/say you are doing it with a heavy heart etc then claim you were just being loyal?

labour – won’t be ripped apart as much and wont matter as not the govt.

At least I have the comfort of still disagreeing with Jamba.

You find it comforting always being wrong 😉

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/revealed-how-we-pay-our-richest-landowners-millions-subsidies

I suspect the In crowd is now jumping with joy that the PM has come back with a brilliant deal of the century.

Looks like we are all going to feed the world again … oh hang on … are you playing the devil or god? 🙄

The irony is that we want to break up USSR but now we want the formation of EU-SSR … 😆

As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) I will vote OUT … 😛

fin25 – Member
Jambalaya,

I get that we’re a net contributor, that’s not really what concerns me.
What I am most concerned about is that, at present, a very large amount of EU money is invested in a very large amount of projects, businesses and social enterprises in the UK (and by the UK, I mean all of it, not just London and the South East). Many of these projects are being funded by the EU largely because our own government won’t fund them.
Do you really think that Dave and his mates will continue to fund all of these projects with the money saved from leaving?
My bet is that they will squander it all away with vote winning drops in VAT and tax breaks for their mates.
Every time I ask any of the “out” group about anything remotely specific, all I seem to get is the same old “net contributor”, “ever closer union” and migration bollocks.
We are part of a massive administrative system that works on many complex levels. Please can one of you explain to me (like I’m an idiot if you like) what we would actually do to replace all the current good that parts of our EU membership actually do for us?

This is my worry, the eu money specifically goes to disadvantaged areas, even a lot of the money that goes to things like universities is tied to catalysing economic growth in less well off areas.

You’d have no nice trail centres if it wasn’t for eu funding!