England declares UDI and dissolves the Act of Union

In the same way the vast majority of Scotland has SNP MPs despite voting against independence? I suggest you check the referendum results for that region…

And while he is at it,could he please explain how this undermines the SNP,as he suggested on page one. He should feel free to cite various high up sources/connections he is privvy to. Mind you,since he is the only person in the UK that thinks Alistair Charmichael is innocent/a British patriot,and Alex Salmond is corrupt for donating a large part of his salary to charity;I won’t hold my breath for anything logical.

I’m assuming you’re happy with the sort of democracy where if (when?) Scotland ever vote for independence

I am happy with the difference between a country and a constituency/area/region*.
Given there are 60 million people here we cannot make them all happy all the time. A country seems fine to me or a federal region if we go down that route. Clearly, within a democracy, some people impose stuff on some others, all we are discussing is if the current state of affairs re the union /devolution is fair. I am saying its not as England always – numbers alone – decides for Scotland – but the reverse cannot happen.

*It either that or we can go all the way to passport to Pimlico. pittodrie

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding over how these new provisions will operate, they only give English MPs the power of veto over English matters. They can’t introduce new law. In addition, the whole house will still vote on the third reading so Scottish MPs can still vote against English only laws at this stage. What it essentially does is stop a government from passing an “english” law which the majority of English MPs are against – i.e a both and test – no more than that i.e. it fixes situations like the tuition fees issue under Labour where they only got a law which would not apply in Scotland passed with the votes of Scottish MPs.

JY Scotland contributes less than it receives so your HS2 point is irrelevant. Heathrow airport expansion is an English issue. Locals in Faslane are for fhe base.

Scotland is a country of 5m people and its deeply divided about independence and many other issues. If you have 2 people you’lll ha e a disagreement about issues. At 60m people the UK is a medium sized country, there are plenty of much larger democracies and that’s before we get onto how the EU works

JY Scotland contributes less than it receives

Wrong – Scotlasnd contributes a slightly higher percentage of tax take than it receives in funding.

We can agree to disagree @ben, Scotland is relatively poor in UK terms and contributes less to the UK vs what it receives than does London alone

So, seeing as most of the complaints seem to come out of the risk that a decision taken in England might affect Scotland through the the Barnett formula, I reckon we all know what comes next don’t we 😈

@jambaytrolathonman its ironic that yet once more your post, which ignored your factual inaccuracies was indeed factually inaccurate.
😆
SOURCE PLEASE

The gift that keeps on giving.
re tax:
Or to put it another way, for every person in Scotland last year, the exchequer received £800 more than the UK average.*
9.1% of the tax 8.3 % of Uk population

Indeed you can agree to disagree with Ben and the actual facts as basically its what you do – form an opinion at odds with reality and then continue to spout it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267
* assumes oil in Scotlands international territory is Scotlands

Oh PLEASE NO. NOT AGAIN.

Not just the Barnett formula. We also need to see how things that are built in England but funded by the UK are affected. Things like HS2. Problem is we don’t know, the decision on whether something’s an English-only matter will be taken on an ad hoc basis by the speaker.

The other issue is it also effectively rules out anyone from Scotland or Wales becoming PM again. Can’t have a PM who can’t vote on some bills his party puts forward.

Scottish Mps will still get to vote on HS2 even if it is regarded as a English matter.

wanmankylung – Member

Are you 100% sure on that given that NHS Scotland is a different body.

The NHS is devolved but NHS England funding affects Scotland via the Barnett formula. That’s a point made often already in this thread. (and often non-Barnett items are still going to be contentious)

I’m totally in favour of English devolution, it’s about bloomin time- years bleating about the West Lothian Question when the real question is “why does England expect the UK parliament to deal with provincial matters”. But this is a pretty horrible fix, both practically and politically. It’s only a matter of time til a contentious decision on English-onlyness. Which is why the House of Commons Procedures Committee was so critical. The decision to rush things through without full consultation and consideration is pretty much the perfect way to make a bad law- for one of the biggest constitutional changes in the UK.

The idea that this outmaneouvres the SNP is just bizarre, it’s pure gold for them. English devolution done well would have outmaneouvred them, this terrible one plays perfectly into their hands.

The idea that it’s somehow a result of fox hunting is bizarre too, since it long pre-dates that. Cameron’s agenda was clear throughout the election- remember “we cannot allow these people to have a voice in our parliament”. And as far as defending democracy goes, the deeper irony was that English MPs weren’t representing English voters on fox hunting.

No Joe – I don’t go that far!! But on that old 4×4 matrix that someone posted put me as a LW libertarian – so the ultimate extension of that is an anarchist

So what would be the states roll in THMland? Just curious.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding over how these new provisions will operate, they only give English MPs the power of veto over English matters.

Shhh, that spoils the mischief making. This is the end of the union, don’t you know! Stay with the game.

Fair point actually

Exits thread

This isn’t really even about Scotland in itself, the tories know they will never have more than a couple of Scottish mp’s for at least a generation. This is about crippling a Labour government that doesn’t command an English majority.

“we cannot allow these people to have a voice in our parliament”

It is therefore completely bizarre that the “solution” involves every Scottish MP still having the right to vote on every bill put forward – or maybe it is not his agenda at all.

Indeed you can agree to disagree with Ben and the actual facts as basically its what you do – form an opinion at odds with reality and then continue to spout it.

The Scottish government seem to agree with Jambalaya.

From GERS;

“Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, total public sector revenue is estimated at £54.0 billion (8.6 per cent of UK public sector revenue). This represents £10,100 per person, £400 more than the UK average.”

“Total expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the Scottish Government, UK Government, and all other parts of the public sector was £66.4 billion. This is equivalent to 9.2 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, and £12,500 per head.”

Out of date figures there junky

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/1422

8.6% of tax revenues (geographic)
9.2% expenditure

😳

(Edit: great minds think alike and all that)

The Scottish government seem to agree with Jambalaya.

Apples and oranges – on a gross basis they contribute more than average on a net basis their negative contribution is less (i.e more negative) than average.

Except it doesn’t. Because as pointed out several times above and below your post, all MPs still get to vote on everything.

This. This only allows English MPs to stop new legislation, it doesn’t allow them to force through new legislation which doesn’t have UK wide support (even if it unequivocally applies only to England). Hence SNP MPs can still vote against anything which changes Barnett funding. Oh and they also still get to vote against any changes to the England only hunting laws!

I agree it is all a mess, and almost totally agree with NW’s post – I’m just not going to let you lot use rubbish arguments against it.

@ aracer any links to back up your argument that EVEL will only apply to those matters already devolved. All the reports I can find say it will be for the speaker +2mps to decide what is “England only”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/english-votes-for-english-laws-what-are-the-veto-proposals-put-forward-by-the-tories-and-how-are-10019986.html
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/mps-warn-of-legal-action-if-evel-proposals-go-through-1-3920696#axzz3pNuGrvYj
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13890833.Tories_accused_of_driving_wedge_between_England_and_Scotland_with_new_Evel_rights_for_MPs/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/english-votes-english-laws-controversial-evel-changes-explained-1525212

I’m just not going to let you lot use rubbish arguments against it.

Who made you the boss? You’re not our mums.

🙂

i thought this was an update on the cricket

Indeed this quote from Chris Grayling in Hansard says that spending implications for the devolved administrations will not be taken into account when the speaker is making any such decisionif he considers them to be minor implications “The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling): The proposed changes to Standing Orders would mean that clauses or schedules that Mr Speaker considers to relate exclusively to England, or to England and Wales, disregarding any minor or consequential effects for other parts of the United Kingdom, will be subject to the new legislative process.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Minor and consequential.

Chris Grayling: Minor or consequential, and consequential. This will include any potential spending effects. Any decision on spending that will have a material impact on the allocation of funding to the devolved Administrations will always be taken by a vote of the whole House of Commons through either the estimates process or a money resolution.”

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm151022/debtext/151022-0001.htm#15102229000031
(edit)

Second order effects on spending will not be taken into account in determining – determination by Speaker alone – which Bills are subject to English Grand Committee – Scottish MPs still get to vote on them at later stage.

minor and inconsequential effects, gordimhor

@aracer you posted ” as a basic rule is that it only applies to those things which are already fully devolved.” There doesn’t seem to be any evidence to support that. The quote from hansard makes is clear that it will be for the speaker+2mps to decide what is an “England only” matter.
I acknowledged that reference to “minor and consequential ” spending implications in my post ,but it is also a matter of concern -who decides what is “minor and consequential”

There doesn’t seem to be any evidence to support that.

Just the Standing Order

(1) The Speaker shall, before second reading-

(a) consider every public bill presented by a Minister of the Crown or brought from the Lords and taken up by a Minister of the Crown, and

(b) certify any such bill, or any clause or schedule of any such bill, which, in the Speaker’s opinion-

(i) relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales, and

(ii) is within devolved legislative competence.

Text of Standing Order

Thanks mefty, I knew I’d seen it somewhere, but hadn’t worked up sufficient interest to bother looking.

edit: and thanks for the graceful acknowledgement

Thanks Mefty, that at least is cleared up @aracer is correct to say that EVEL would only apply to areas of already devolved legislation 😳

The problem with these debates is that they are long on rhetoric but short on familiarity with the facts – 10 mins research saves a lot of time in the long run.

EDIT: The newspapers and politicians are equally at fault hence generally best to look for a primary source.

EDIT 2: I wrote my post before I saw yours gordimhor, which makes it look like a personal dig, it wasn’t just a generalisation about how we are badly informed by our politicians and media – hence my initial EDIT but I still thought there could be room for doubt, which I have hopefully removed now.

The problem with these debates is that they are long on rhetoric but short on familiarity with the facts – 10 mins research saves a lot of time in the long run.

This is the SNPs trump card – people cant be ar$ed to check the facts and will swallow the hysteria demonstrated in the House yesterday.

jambalaya – Member
Faslane….
…Boom.

I found the basis of our objection in your screed… 🙂

No worries Mefty .

Anyway, how’s it coming along in Catalonia?

I mean, everyone agreed that they had the right to a UDI and would definitley retain EU membership didn’t they?

Zulu,is Catalonia independent then? When did that happen?

I may be simplifying it but UK is governed from Westmister, Scotland from Holyrood, Wales Cardiff and NI was Stormont.

England as yet isn’t a devolved power, yet, which does seem unfair. So become devolved from the UK parliament then non-english MPs can’t vote on England only stuff.

All i ask is you don’t use the building or the civil service of the UK government. Because that’s for UK governance.