employment tribunal judgement

TandemJeremy – Member
£11000 is a huge award from a tribunal. What on earth did you do? You have no option – you have to pay.
POSTED 32 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Agrees with this – my wife got considerably less even though she was made redundant when pregnant and her boss said *on record* ‘it’s you or Jack and you are pregnant anyway so you probably won’t want to come back’

project

So no actual response to my point? People had said you were thick…

Junkyard – Member

thanks

The point I was making – at the start of the first post – was that the Law doesn’t always work as it should. And this was in response the the post above it.

I merely summerised what was a very complicated case – admittedly from the losers point of view. I didn’t express any opinion on whether it was the correct outcome or not.

TandemJeremy – Member
£11000 is a huge award from a tribunal. What on earth did you do?

My thought too and an interesting/strange first post/second log in. 😕

You can obtain cover for both representation, and subsequent payout. Most chambers of commerce membership includes, or can highly recommend Mentor Services who are part of the RBS.

Part of their litigation assessment is the equation of the cost of service vs potential payout, and often they will go with the former if it’s more prudent.

Having been on the receiving end of two tribunals to date I’m glad I have cover, both claims were completely without merit, but given the cost to the claimant is zero, they will have a go anyway. Waste of everyone’s time.

Regards original post, there is little you can do bar appealing. Phoenixing the company would no doubt transfer the liability under tupe, and cause a lot more problems on top so not a good option.

The point I was making – at the start of the first post – was that the Law doesn’t always work as it should. And this was in response the the post above it.

I merely summerised what was a very complicated case – admittedly from the losers point of view. I didn’t express any opinion on whether it was the correct outcome or not
Though if it was the correct outcome, it’s not a very good example of the law not working as it should, hence that point is crucial to your argument. By presenting it as an example of “the law not working as it should” you are implying your opinion on the quality of the outcome.

saved me the trouble ta.

The point I was making…was that the Law doesn’t always work as it should…I didn’t express any opinion on whether it was the correct outcome or not

❓

Interesting that theirs a possibility of insurance…I’ll look into that as I’ve got a fair bit of biz insurance.
Short version is that I had an employee who wasn’t productive and was resistant to change… Made him redundant when i should have followed a dismissal procedure. Due to the onerous nature of said procedure cocked it up Along the way.tried to make amends by engaging a hr company to audit/change practices and also help with settling the dispute.the claimants advisor was desperate to take it to the tribunal so we went and thIs is the result…..

Would highly recommend mentor services, they have a 24hr advice line that you call before any action is taken, and subsequently provide cover should anything further eventuate. I had 18 employees and cost just over £100 month for their service, which also incorporates health and safety.

I was very surprised following my last “experience” that the ex-employees case was being funded by their home insurance policy, which on further investigation seems to be a very common occurrence these days,

This an employee who turned into work visibly under the influence and sent home (after a previous warning for similar), yet believed that because they had arrived at work they should be paid. Obviously not being paid meant the employer / employee relationship had broken down so they could no longer work and considered themselves constructively dismissed (after three months of stress related leave).

Speaking to my representative last time, it seems the majority of dismissals these days end up before the tribunals who are being swamped. They try to weed out some of the chaff with pre-trial mediations etc, and there is also speak of the plaintiff having to pay a bond which is forfeit should they lose.

And while there are plenty of justified reasons, and cases of poor employer practices, a small business can be very very easily strangled by an individual who knows how to “play” the system. I personally seemed to spend the bulk of my time dealing with peoples issues, the majority of which were caused by external influence, then bought into the workplace. The process of performance managing out is at best a 3 month process (assuming easily identifiable KPI’s), often made longer with the “introduction” of stress leave, and various other tactics. In the meantime the employer has to fund it all, suffer the loss in production / service levels and graciously smile throughout.

I’m glad to be out, and I wonder if some of the loudest supporters of workers rights would be quite so vocal after having endured the process of having destructive employees taking money out of their own pockets ?

i would be amazed if a similar sized business to mine has everything watertight….i would need to devote a fair bit of time to keeping upto date etc. hence putting a hr company in charge of it all(£100 a month) theyve been very good so far

i think most people would object to people taking the piss whether they were employers or employees.

Employment tribunals are like any other ‘adjudication’ body and having been on both sides, winning, losing and having had the opposite ruling from being both right and wrong, I can safely say that I would have no faith in the system whatsoever.

IME it’s whoever has the best representation (normally a lawyer/barrister) wins.

cynic-al – Member
project

So no actual response to my point? People had said you were thick…

Posted 11 hours ago # Report-Post

and your point being………..

I have been in a situation where ACAS advised us to wind up the company rather than give in to an employee’s perfect legal (but very unrealistic) demands.

One size does not fit all in employment law unfortunately.

Short version is that I had an employee who wasn’t productive and was resistant to change… Made him redundant when i should have followed a dismissal procedure. Due to the onerous nature of said procedure cocked it up

Fair enough. At least you acknowledge it was wrong.

Key thing is to find the cash. You owe it, so need to pay it (unless you can appeal the quantum of the award?). Bridging loan and work out how to take the cashflow and P&L hit with some good financial advice.

And while there are plenty of justified reasons, and cases of poor [strike]employer[/strike] employee practices, an [strike]small business[/strike] employee can be very very easily strangled by an [strike]individual[/strike] employer who knows how to “play” the system.

Another side of it

There’s plenty of companies out there that start the redundancy process by deciding who they want rid of and then tailoring the criteria to suit

To those of you that have had problems with this – learn the law. I have done dismissal from both sides. Its very simple to sack someone for poor performance and to make that watertight at tribunal. However most employers don’t bother doing things properly and thus leave themselves open for claims.

You do not need representation to win a tribunal – you need a good case. Tribunals are designed not to need lawyers and using them can be countrproductive and costs are not available

i agree tj but i do think the regs and rules are not easy to apply/understand…i failed due to naievity/lack of knowledge and advice.
acas didnt seem a great help and the claimants advisor was a proper prima donna….he was desperate to get into a tribunal despite my best efforts to settle..

meeting the accountant next week to decide what to do..on the back of a crap year im thinking it may be better working for someone..

Flame yuo are not the only one in that position. don’t be too pisssed of – especially if you paid for advice and it was crap advice. Its a painful lesson to learn tho

Seems like the advice you got was crap as well – I’d be looking to them for an explanation.

sue the claimants advisor, he/she should have PI insurance for just such a situation 😉

sue the claimants advisor, he/she should have PI insurance for just such a situation

You mean defendants??

I’m a salesman and as such have experienced various efforts by companies over the years to get rid through the back door. It’s too easy to move the goal posts and after a three month ‘performance review’ and then out the door you’re shoved.

I’ve just left a job last week after a three month performance review and it resulted in me challenging them to either make me redundant or fire me for a valid reason. I was taken on two and a half years ago a salesman in a team of three covering the North. The most senior member wanted to grow the territory and get some extra responsibility so put a case forward to bring on another member (me) and elevate himself to a position of more responsibilty and have a crack at parallel markets.

F-Fwd to 2011 and the business has reduced it’s headcount from 400 to 300, turnover down from £29m to £15m and every single dept but external sales has had a reduction in personnel. My oppo who wanted the extra responsibility is doing really badly (I’ve just done 140% of my quarterly target) and the sales manager calls me in to bollock me for daring to stand up to him in a sales meeting where he wanted to rip strips off me for an issue I had no involvement in. During this meeting (in April) he then put me on a performance review. I had to log all my appointments in a visible calendar, after each appointment I had to write a call report in the notes part of the appointment, add in travelling time etc and basically account for every minute of every day.

Three months running I had a meeting to review and every meeting my ‘working style’ was decimated and basically was told I couldn’t do the job i’d been doing for three years. Never once was sales Vs target mentioned (I was behind target year to date but the whole team of 13 are) and at the last meeting the dirty tricks came into play.

I thought for some time that they wanted to get rid of me to give my oppo his old role back, he’s been there 17 years and due to redundancy laws if they got rid of me and then sent him into my area that would be breaking the law as you have to make the position redundant and not the person. I was now witnessing them putting substance to my fears.

All of our cars were fitted with trackers for ‘health and safety’ reasons 🙄 and we were assured by the MD we would never be spied on :lol:. My boss queried why I had a 3pm appointment in my diary and I didn’t attend it as the tracker showed I had gone home early, this was simply a case of it being cancelled but he accused me of falsifying records and then dug out another appointment that I had which was in the same town as a major competitor and then suggested I’d had an interview with them!!!! 😯

He then again said he was left with a dilemma, he had no faith I could do the job so I had the option to either plough on and risk being put through a disciplinary procedure which WOULD end in dismissal (for what he wouldn’t answer) or I could resign. I explained I had income protection insurance and wouldn’t resign because a) i had no reason to and b) couldn’t as it wouldn’t pay out if I did. He then hinted at a third option which was compromise agreement and then we agreed to sleep on it over the weekend.

I called him back and said lets meet and we did the next day. He offered me a package that was equivalent to three months pay, plus £2k for loss of car and I could work for the remaining 25 days of the month and pocket commission from that month. I was on holiday the week after the meeting (I even changed from two weeks to one as I was worried about the impact of not being at work during this performance process, basically sent the rest of the family to Cyprus without me and lost the cost of my flight).

We shook hands and the week after I was on holidays I had the agreement signed and checked by solicitor and within an hour of doing it they announced another redundancy programme. I knew all along what they were trying to do and simply had too much pride to let the competition find out they were letting sales people go.

I took my company car back as agreed on the last day of August and the severance cheque I was promised was nowhere to be seen. I was told it would be posted after a P45 and commission/expenses for august calculated. The very nicely deducted a weeks pay as my holiday entitlement was pro rata’d and my holiday entitlement was exceeded when I had the week off!!

My solicitor said I had a clear case in the tribunal but what they offered me was quite good and the money would be now instead of about 12 months down the line after a load of grief…..

I felt relieved when it all ended after three months of stress but I’m now unemployed and the income protection insurance are refusing to payout because I mutually agreed to leave, even though I was obviously pushed.

So this week I’ll be mainly be filling out small claims court forms….

Just heard one today at our place

the sales director emailed the MD to say she thought they should get rid of xxxxx
the problem was that both the MD and xxxxx have the same christian name and she emailed xxxxx instead

don’t you just love outlook recipient auto complete?

I guess xxxxx has a safe job now 😆

Classic!!

You mean defendants??

No, the advisor who against all attempts to settle still advised taking the case to tribunal (arguably trying to make a name for himself).

As a third party advisor/consultant paid for their advice, I would expect them to hold Professional Indemnity Insurance to cover them in the event of being sued for giving duff advice.

Sorry about your recent experiences btw. Unfortunately sales is notorious for shoddy treatment. Good luck.

geordie,thats an awful tale and having been in sales for most of my days i can sympathise…the tribunals exist i think for cases like yours,good luck with job hunt/getting your cash.
the advisor was from citizen advice…dont know if this makes any odds?

im having a few meetings with various people,accountant/bank manager a few options open despite my knee jerk thought to wrap the biz up!

I think the confusion may have been between claimant’s advisor and claims advisor. But having said that, suing the advisor is another big project and possibly (depends on the facts, I suppose) one that is going to be hard to prove. It’s not enough to show that the OP lost the case.

Just heard one today at our place

the sales director emailed the MD to say she thought they should get rid of xxxxx
the problem was that both the MD and xxxxx have the same christian name and she emailed xxxxx instead

don’t you just love outlook recipient auto complete?

I guess xxxxx has a safe job now
Embarrassing but if the reason for dismissal was legit in the first place, there’s no reason why they still can’t do it.

Embarrassing but if the reason for dismissal was legit in the first place, there’s no reason why they still can’t do it.

but there’s a fair chance they’ll not

besides, they haven’t even announced any redundancies, let alone produced a criteria matrix to work from

aracer – Member
Though IF it was the correct outcome,

And IF it wasn’t the correct outcome then it would be a good example.

But the ‘case’ was not my point.

I wasn’t representing it as an example eitherway, it was coincedental that I had spoken to someone about the subject matter on Tuesday.

If you read it that way well that’s your misinterpretation.

😯

The ‘law’ is a bit stupid is certain circumstances – a prime example of the difference between Law and Morality.

I was talking to somebody (employer) yesterday who had lost a case dispite the employee being incapable of doing their job and refusing the support and training offered by the employer that would have given them the skills they needed.

seems pretty clear what you are getting at tbh as did your follow up reply

The point I was making – at the start of the first post – was that the Law doesn’t always work as it should. And this was in response the the post above it.

😯 indeed.

‘at the start of the first post’ is quite clearly refering to the first paragraph. And that was in repsonse to the post that was directly above it.

Regardless of how you, or indeed anyone, interprited the post, I have since clarified what I meant.

I can see how you’ve read it;

‘The ‘law’ is a bit stupid is certain circumstances.

A prime example of the difference between Law and Morality;
I was talking to somebody (employer) yesterday who had lost a case dispite the employee being incapable of doing their job and refusing the support and training offered by the employer that would have given them the skills they needed.’

But that’s not how it was written. Besides, I have repeatedly clarrified my point.

Junkyard, you’ve gone from making a point to acting like an adolescent bellend. Just repeating ‘Yeah but you said….. Yeah but you said….’ Grow up.

To those of you that have had problems with this – learn the law. I have done dismissal from both sides. Its very simple to sack someone for poor performance and to make that watertight at tribunal. However most employers don’t bother doing things properly and thus leave themselves open for claims

Less so when the “recipient” is either non-compliant to the process, or simply not at work due to whatever reason the medical profession want to sign them off for as per my example above.

Throw in every other accusation they can think of (discrimination / constructive dismissal et all) and even when water tight from an administrative perspective you can (and no doubt will) end up before the tribunals so yet more time / expense and effort is wasted. For a small business this can be crippling in itself.

they haven’t even announced any redundancies, let alone produced a criteria matrix to work from

I didn’t know redundancies were planned! I was assuming they wanted to ditch him/her because they’re crap or something.

I didn’t know redundancies were planned!

nor did we until we all saw that email

Regardless of how you, or indeed anyone, interprited the post, I have since clarified what I meant.

and yet each time you have clarified it you have claimed you meant something different – hence the confusion

you’ve gone from making a point to acting like an adolescent bellend. Just repeating ‘Yeah but you said….. Yeah but you said….’ Grow up.

Is that the mature way of making a point that I need to aspire too?

nor did we until we all saw that email

Maybe it’s just him/her that’s getting binned, then…?

you’ve gone from making a point to acting like an adolescent bellend. Just repeating ‘Yeah but you said….. Yeah but you said….’ Grow up.

Is that the mature way of making a point that I need to aspire too?

project – why is it sad that the law is on the side of somebody who’s been unfairly dismissed?

POSTED 1 DAY AGO # REPORT-POST
mk1fan – Member
The ‘law’ is a bit stupid is certain circumstances – a prime example of the difference between Law and Morality.

I was talking to somebody (employer) yesterday who had lost a case dispite the employee being incapable of doing their job and refusing the support and training offered by the employer that would have given them the skills they needed.
so obviously you are not suggesting in the case you cite of the incapable employee that the law was wrong. It was just said as a non related aside. It was pure random chance that it was on the very subject and issue we were discussing and we should read nothing in to this at all and no inference can be drawn from it.. this seems highly plausible to me.

Junkyard – Member
and yet each time you have clarified it you have claimed you meant something different – hence the confusion

I haven’t at all.

Is that the mature way of making a point that I need to aspire too?

How was it immature? You are acting as an adolescent bellend. You keep reposting something YOU misinterpreted dispite being informed otherwise. A bit like Vicky Pollard in those Building Society adverts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCsi9Vqv1jY

I’m not saying my post was perfect in structure or the use of language but you keep repeating it regardless of being told you’re misunderstanding it.

1st paragraph was a statement about how the Law doesn’t always arrive at a ‘morally’ correct decision.

2nd paragraph was recanting a conversation I happened to have had on Tuesday.

I accept you may have misunderstood things after reading my first post. Something we both have ownership of.

But continued misunderstanding is all you.

Personally I think you have successfully convinced almost everyone that they were not related , despite being on the same issue,and have admirably saved face rather than concede a fairly unimportant point. Perhaps another insulting stroppy retort comparing me to an adolescent, a bell end or a fictional character will be the tipping point if there are any doubters left.

Posting points about Industrial Tribunals on a thread about Industrial Tribunals. How very odd. The mere thought of it. What would the elders think? And would someone please think about the children?

There’s been no stroppyness in my responses. Regardless of your age (whatever that is), your continued repetition of a misunderstood post despite being told you had misunderstood it, is childish and you fully deserve teasing/ridicule over behaving like that.

Now run along Timmy and let the adults talk.