Driving in Wales 20mph !

I’ve clearly not quite adapted to leaving 5 minutes earlier for each 20mph zone I need to pass through, I don’t speed but it does annoy me it takes longer.

How many 5 mile long 20mph zones do you usually go through?

Sorry, sarcasm obviously doesn’t make it through the forum without emoji anymore.

Sorry, sarcasm obviously doesn’t make it through the forum without emoji anymore.

It’s okay some people got it I’m sure.

On this subject and given some of the arguments people have put forwards? I normally assume tongue in cheek as a safe default in this place but on this thread you’ll have to accept my apologies for taking things at face value.

Some more details on the data in this bbc article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjee04vlqglo

It isn’t as clear cut; the numbers injured in 20/30 limits has decreased a bit but not by that much (only very slightly lower than 2017). Over all roads, in the same period injuries actually increased by a similar factor in the same period (presumably just statistical variation).

Essentially, the decrease in 20/30 limits isn’t so big that the change obviously caused it. More fundamentally, 30 limits were already quite safe, so making them safer doesn’t have a big impact overall on road safety.

Finally to the point that there is no cost, there is. Time is money. If going more slowly cost someone six minutes a day and their time was valued at the minimum wage, then that would have cost them around £400 per year. If that was the average across the welsh population, it would have cost the population £1.2 billion each year. Made up numbers, but illustrate that this is actually quite an expensive policy for those routinely affected.

I’m certainly not set against the policy, but it is worth being aware that it isn’t such a clear win with no downsides as some want to portray.

Made up numbers

predicated on assumptions along the lines of “traffic always flows at 30 in a 30”

Wales’ll have been more than that just because it was more time-critical

What about the far greater amount of signs that need changing?

Even a village with a single road through it would have double the number of signs… Each of which needed changing.

It’s the labour cost involved, not just the hardware.

The cost recorded from the Councils’ claims on the WAG is £32M, which is a steal compared to the other way of introducing 20mph zones which is to go through an individual consultative and legal process on a street by street basis as towns and cities in the rest of UK still have to do, and are doing a lot.

Anyway: Report from the pubs of South Wales – I’ve not heard mention of this in a month. The half-life of this story here was passed a long time ago.

@Smiffy, yup it’s true. EVERY pub speaks in Welsh the moment I turn up. Every time. It’s uncanny.

Just saw a video on a south Birmingham community group of some chap cleaning a dirty 20 sign – it had a lot of likes, I think Birmingham’s quite in favour of twenty zones. 🙂

Finally to the point that there is no cost, there is. Time is money. If going more slowly cost someone six minutes a day and their time was valued at the minimum wage, then that would have cost them around £400 per year. If that was the average across the welsh population, it would have cost the population £1.2 billion each year. Made up numbers, but illustrate that this is actually quite an expensive policy for those routinely affected.

Well for one that would mean an actual drop in speed of 10mph over a distance of at least 6 miles.

The problem with that assumption is that 68% of journeys are <5miles.

And most 20 (ex 30) limits are lots of junctions, pinch points, etc. They’re not the main urban roads which would mostly have been 40 anyway.

Add onto that “across the Welsh population” needs to include kids in school, retired people, etc who’s time has no monetary value in that respect.

And people who don’t commute by car who aren’t affected.

And it assumes that those 6 minutes are productive, most people work fixed hours so very few would actually leave work 6minutes earlier.

Basically I think your figure of £1.2billion is hugely over inflated.

Also, the effect of smoother-flowing traffic can actually make overall journey times lower. It’s much easier to pull out of side roads now, for instance. (Although speeds have definitely picked back up again since the early days, reducing this effect a bit). Cycling and walking short journeys is also easier…

Absolutely agree, great news, but suspect ‘no cost’ isn’t quite right as all those new speed signs and installation will have costed something to someone.

In the Borders they didn’t install any new signs, they just had 20 vinyls / stickers that went over the front of the original 30 signs. Still a cost to install but significantly cheaper than producing new signs.

Also, the effect of smoother-flowing traffic can actually make overall journey times lower.

This is very true and very much my experience.