Does anyone not wear a poppy, and why?

grum – Member

The idea that we fought WWII to save the Jews is quite ridiculous – and seems to have become quite prevalent.

Could you provide some examples?

Real people fought and were killed protecting and serving the interests of the nation and moral principle. Warfare is a desperately unfortunate condition, but one that happens all too frequently when national politics become aggressive. It is a truly scary business that requires courage to endure. Regardless of how people became soldiers, or whether you agree with the principles or national-interests involved in any particular conflict, I respect a soldier’s courage and sacrifice.

Direct your anger at politicians throughout our history who have sent brave warriors into conflicts for unsound reasons.

I’m just not inclined to pin a hole in my GoreTex jacket.

I already did:

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife’s home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

See also:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/endeavour-press/rewriting-history-wwii-an_b_2091449.html

Admittedly he doesn’t provide any evidence but it’s something I’ve noticed too.

And this is a bit misleading:

Sorry, that’s wrong.

The Nazis built the first of their concentration camps in the early thirties.

Concentration camps yes (think we invented them first) but I don’t think the existence of ‘death camps’ where people were systematically executed was known about by most people until very near the end of the war or afterwards.

I include the Polish as ‘we’ since they fought on the same side. Was the persecution pre-war not a major concern? Does this not point to religious freedom being a factor in the war? Obviously the next example would be the invasion of Poland. Does that not point to Political Freedom being a factor in the war? Even if obviously we were concerned about our own rather than that of the Polish people.

When you say “gave of themselves”, do you mean “mostly conscripted at pain of arrest and imprisonment?”.

Should they not be remembered because some of them didn’t want to go? I wouldn’t have wanted to go, but I would hope that I would have, and I would hope that it would be remembered.

Edit – html formatting fail removed

Was the persecution pre-war not a major concern?

Was it?

Not for the Daily Mail in 1930.

And I know a few Poles that would have some choice words to say about the fight for political freedom in WWII – given that we abandoned them to the Soviet Union immediately afterwards.

Here’s Churchill in 1940:

In his famous “Blood, Sweat and Tears” speech, the great British wartime leader said that unless Germany was defeated, there would be “no survival for the British empire, no survival for all that the British empire has stood for…” A few weeks later, in his “Finest Hour” address, Churchill said: “Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire.”

According to him it seems to have been mostly about protecting the Empire and Christian Civilization.

I’m not suggesting that we shouldn’t have fought the Nazis, obviously – but we have a lot of myths that have built up around WWII that are quite embedded in our national consciousness. Interesting article here:

http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

My wife’s home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

If WW2 was about saving the Jews, it seems weird that UK would have allied itself with one of the most xenophobic anti-Semitic regimes on earth in order to do it…

I include the Polish as ‘we’ since they fought on the same side.

…and then suggesting that the Poles fought WW2 to save the Jews is just ludicrous.

BBC R4 today at 12:00 you and yours

Is RS losing its true meaning?

10m time PSA

If WW2 was about saving the Jews, it seems weird that UK would have allied itself with one of the most xenophobic anti-Semitic regimes on earth in order to do it…

I didn’t think it was “just” about saving the Jews (or even “much”, to be honest) – I also think, assuming you’re on about the alliance with Soviet Russie, that it was a marriage of convenience, for them and us, rather than idealogical similarity.

…and then suggesting that the Poles fought WW2 to save the Jews is just ludicrous.

I don’t think that HAS been suggested, has it?

I don’t think that HAS been suggested, has it?

Yes.

chrismac that stunt is disgusting more so if dad really is only on 2 day leave not home early. So empty too on officer on anti piracy in the Seychelles why not a squaddie from operations in Afghanistan.

Yes.

I’ve had a look through and I can’t see it. 🙁 I didn’t check the links though – was it in one of them?

why not a squaddie from operations in Afghanistan

maybe squaddies daughters aren’t photogenic enough for a pr stunt.

I’ve had a look through and I can’t see it.

this might look a tiny bit like it…if you squint

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife’s home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.Which, if Richpenny wasn’t suggesting a link, seems a bit of a disjointed post.

Which, if Richpenny wasn’t suggesting a link, seems a bit of a disjointed post.

Hmm, I’m not sure about that.
“People are trying to make it look as though the wars were fought for religious and political freedom” + “During the course of the war, thousands of Jews were killed in my wife’s village = Poland fought for Jewish freedom? Not to speak on someone else’s behalf, but I don’t feel that was the link they were making.

Obviously I dunno what RP was saying either but a post that says
“Some people suggest ww2 was fought coz of religion/political freedom
Well a lot of religious people died”
is either a suggested link or 2 random bits of info tagged together.
Dunno, just a suggestion, grum (and a couple of others) seemed to think so too.

grum – Member

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife’s home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

The idea that we fought WWII to save the Jews is quite ridiculous – and seems to have become quite prevalent. I’ll butt out now and let those people concerned speak for themselves.

Heh! Me too. 🙂

grum – Member

I already did:

No you didn’t.
No one on here has suggested that we fought WWII to save the Jews.

Please provide more evidence that this view is ‘quite prevalent’.
I’ve certainly never, ever heard anyone suggest we did.
And I’ve never encountered a ‘holocaust centric’ teaching model of WW2 either.

As to concentration camps, Ben said that the Nazi regime did not have them before WW2.
He was wrong, they did, from the early 30’s onward.
What’s misleading about that?

There’s plenty of opinion on this thread – all of it interesting and valid.

But at least can we get the facts right?

Some interesting views. I thought this 91 year old veteran’s views were valid and well worth a read:

In summary:

“I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one’s right to privacy”.

Full article:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

Certainly WWI and WWII were fought for very different reasons to the current wars we are in now.

As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

This is the point I brought up with my partner and friends. No-one gave me a valid answer other than ‘they killed people in our country’. A simplistic view yes, but not the right one?

I don’t for exactly the same reasons previous poster’s have mentioned. Mainly, that I don’t need to be told when or how to remember. I was born in the 70’s anyway so I don’t remember either of the world wars. Though I have read a lot about them. I do think a lot about all the poor souls who’ve died in the recent oil-wars.

And also, I don’t wear badges.

Also: Interesting point about conscripts and pro-soldiers.

Honour, pride, nation, glory – words frequently used in propaganda. Today we have ‘terrorism’. The blurred meaning of these words by our leaders is quite scary when you think about it. The very idea of an ongoing ‘war on terror’ would be daft, funny even if it weren’t for the horrible reality.

As to concentration camps, Ben said that the Nazi regime did not have them before WW2.
He was wrong, they did, from the early 30’s onward.

I was, I should have said extermination camps.

Harry Smith makes very valid points even if some of the detail was contradicted by the Historian on R4 at lunchtime. I agree with him that war has been overly glorified and sanitised but disagree on the political accusation.

Why? It’s obvious that there has been some political posturing etc. But look here at this thread. There are lots of feelings and strong sentiments that are expressed here that are themselves political eg, I don’t wear a poppy (now) because I object to……

Smith makes his own political points as well. And isn’t that the real point? We are free to make those points, to politicise them if we want to and to defend our views and perspectives as we see fit. Some of this is due to those who fought and for that we should be grateful and remember them in whichever way we see fit. IMO of course.

Grum, I am not sure that an article from the Daily Mail in 1930 and having a couple of racists as friends proves anything.

I am confident that the many thousands of Poles executed for helping Jews were in fact fighting for religious freedom. Not as an intellectual idea but to protect their friends and neighbours.

Maybe I am wrong, and the treatment of the Jews and political opponents of Nazism was never discussed in Parliament in the 1930’s.

I am also confident that political freedom was a factor for everyone in Europe at the time, since their own was clearly at stake.

TV presenter gets racist and sexist abuse for not wearing a poppy: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/charlene-white-itv-news-presenter-remembrance-day-poppy

As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

This is the point I brought up with my partner and friends. No-one gave me a valid answer other than ‘they killed people in our country’. A simplistic view yes, but not the right one?

This I have never understood. A group of Egyptians led by a Saudi attack America; response is to attack Iraq?

It is often said that people have children to ensure they are remembered; the same is said of scientists and artists, who make their mark on the world, that they may be held in esteem after their passing.

By constantly remembering the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight, are we not perpetuating the glory of war?

Be interesting to see how many of the powerful elites are either direct shareholders, or in league with the arms industry, as there is still handsome profit to be made from the business of war…

By constantly remembering the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight, are we not perpetuating the glory of war?

I suppose it depends on your point of view – I don’t wear a poppy to glorify war, I wear it in rememberance of the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight.

I don’t wear a poppy as I believe that the state that sends people to war should be wholly responsible for their post-war welfare, rather then hiving it off to charity.

stories like the ITV news reporter above and google being attacked for not having a big enough poppy on their website, puts me off wearing one tbh

not to mention that the last decade of wars seem to have benefited no one and killed millions of civilians and soldiers

It all seems to have become something for politicians and UKIP and the EDL and their sympathisers to bash the public round the head with

fwiw, I did put some money in the poppy appeal tub in the post office, but didnt take a poppy, though they were behind the glass

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html
However I noticed the Institute for Historical Review (the source) has a rather alarming affiliations if their wikipedia entry is anything to go by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

st colin – Member
As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

7/7 happened after we invaded afgahnistan and iraq

infact each of those bombers were recruited, converted and motivated by those wars , if we hadnt started blowing those places up they probably wouldnt have killed all those people on the tube!

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

Crikey – tried the link and got contect blocked for racism and hatred.

This I have never understood. A group of Egyptians led by a Saudi attack America; response is to attack Iraq?

Egypt and saudi are american allies and Iraq has oil

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10445723/Afghanistan-opium-poppy-cultivation-at-record-high.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24919056

Makes you proud to be British.

No you didn’t.
No one on here has suggested that we fought WWII to save the Jews.

Well, they’ve suggested that religious freedom for the Jews was one of the primary motivations for going to war. Which it wasn’t.

Here was Churchill on anti-semitism in an unpublished article from 1937:

“For it may be that, unwittingly, they are inviting persecution — that they have been partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer.”

RichPenny WTF:

Grum, I am not sure that an article from the Daily Mail in 1930 and having a couple of racists as friends proves anything.

Really, how on earth have you come up with the claim that I have a couple of ‘racists as friends’? Because I mentioned that I know some Poles who aren’t very happy about what happened to their country in WWII?

Given that WWII apparently started to protect Polish sovereignty, and Poles fought alongside our army against Hitler – wouldn’t you be a bit pissed off if your country was then abandoned to Soviet control for the next 40 years (while we celebrate our noble victory for freedom)?

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

However I noticed the Institute for Historical Review (the source) has a rather alarming affiliations if their wikipedia entry is anything to go by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Yeah I must admit I didn’t look at the background of the website. Still an interesting article though.

We do seem to have re-written history to make it sound like everyone was always firmly on the side of the Jews vs evil Hitler. Actually there was a fair amount of admiration for Hitler in the 1930s, and anti-semitism was rife.

Anyone would think the money for your poppy goes straight to the EDL the way you lot are carrying on.
It goes to the British legion who do a lot to help families of soldiers killed in action and veterans, they help pick up the pieces when the army/government/local authorities do not.
Don’t like the symbolism/media spin? Put the money in the pot but don’t wear the poppy then.

Hear, hear, Mr Smith! Well put.

But MrS, you are missing the point about making political capital out of a simple mark of remembrance – just look above!! 😉

(but +1 to you and flashy)

Yes, because it’s important that we don’t question or debate when we feel uncomfortable about promoting militarism and jingoism.

It goes to the British legion who do a lot to help families of soldiers killed in action and veterans, they help pick up the pieces when the army/government/local authorities do not.

Well, the government should support the armed forces and their families properly – maybe we need to pay more tax to allow them to do so? But those people did choose to enter the military – there’s an awful lot of victims of the conflicts they have taken part in that didn’t choose to get involved, and that get virtually no support/help whatsoever.