doctors on strike

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike?

No idea why should they?

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

you nailed their central concern. Well done, you have a fine grasp of this issue.

Why should any of my families or friends health be put at risk by a health secretary changing working conditions in the NHS to the detriment of patient safety . Thank Christ the Junior Drs have the courage to stand up and fight for what they know is right.
Hunt should take the Hippocratic Oath patients come before political ideology . If he wants a ” 7 day a week service ” that is different to the current 7 day a week service then he needs to increase staff by about 20 % not demotivate and alienate the current staff.

@jet26

I’ve been staying out of this for the sake of my blood pressure but enough is enough.

Short term strikes reduce in-hospital mortality rates because:
A. Patients avoid coming to hospital so those that die do so either die somewhere else or die in hospital after the strike.
B. Routine operations are cancelled. You can’t get a fatal complication from an operation you didn’t have

Moron.

They are fighting for their working conditions to remain the same as far as I can tell, the same as the majority of working people would do, it being work and not free time you know.

@jet26

Apologies

<and breathe>

Soc Sci Med. 2008 Dec;67(11):1784-8. doi: 10.1016/j.socscimed.2008.09.044. Epub 2008 Oct 10.
Doctors’ strikes and mortality: a review.
Cunningham SA1, Mitchell K, Narayan KM, Yusuf S.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/when-doctors-go-on-strike_b_1513689.html

GrahamS – Member

Where would they be on the Hippocratic Oath if they stood by and allowed changes to be introduced which they believe compromise patient safety?

That my duck riding friend is total and utter bollox.

Anyway it sounds like it’s academic according to the news tonight, the government can force the contracts through and so they should. Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.

I happen to agree

They all want to get to consultant level status and wages but don’t want to do the work. If you aren’t prepared to do the work don’t become a doctor simple, expect consultant status handed to you on a plate, then piss off to private sector to milk the NHS a bit more .

Thanks Graham S.

Surgical death rates are far higher from emergency surgery than elective. And emergency surgery carries on.

It’s been said before and I’ll say it again – all juniors who are full time work 48 hours a week. The only way to have more staff on sat/sun is to reduce numbers Monday to Friday. And we already rely on locums as not enough staff.

Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.

They all want to get to consultant level but don’t want to do the work.

Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these 🙄

Ah yes, you were the guy trollingly suggesting some insane snowboard stance. I remember.

Well if you think you can troll me again…

Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.

…then you’d be right.

Further up the thread you’d see me commenting on my junior doctor wife doing a 56 hour week (including three 13 hour shifts), plus a full day at a training course, plus evening work on presentations and eportfolio – and that’s a PART TIME post.

If you really think that’s “lazy” then I’d like to hear about your week and how many people you kept alive.

They all want to get to consultant level but don’t want to do the work.

Mrs qualified as a doctor in 2000. She has been working towards being a consultant since then.

You have no idea how much work she has put in: running clinics, learning procedures, audits, research, writing papers, conferences – as well as the actual looking after patients bits.

Even filling in her consultant application form took her a week – I’ve never seen anything like it!
In just one section of it they wanted a list of every hospital she’d worked at, all 17 of them, each one with 500 words describing her duties and experiences, plus her salary at the time and the names, emails, adresses and phone numbers of the people she had worked with. And that’s before we got to the 2000 word essays for the other sections. And that’s just to get her shortlisted for an interview!

Why should any of my families or friends health be put at risk by a health secretary changing working conditions in the NHS to the detriment of patient safety

@crankboy total opposite is true, the new contract is about making sure there is proper cover at weekends (plus other stuff)

Becoming a doctor remains massively oversubscribed with far more supremely well qualified candidates chasing places. Thats a signal it must be a pretty good career overall despite what we all accept is a tough introduction.

One additional issue is we only have one health service provider, the NHS. If we had a variety of providers a strike by one set of doctors wouldn’t jepordise fhe whole country and doctors could choose which provider they worked for.

Becoming a Dr is massively oversubscribed but staying one in the UK isn’t. Why do you think there are so many vacancies? If you are keen on options to the NHS then have a look at proportion of GDP spent on health.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

Jamba the Hunt said:
If we had a variety of providers a strike by one set of doctors wouldn’t jepordise fhe whole country and doctors could choose which provider they worked for.

Spoken like a true Tory jamba:

Break up the NHS and privatise it to different providers so the unions have less power and patients get to choose who they pay for treatment.

If that’s the ultimate goal (and I agree it is) then they should have the balls to make that a manifesto promise and see what the people think.

Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these

FTFY

Mr Hunt is an idiot. When the last strike was supposed to happen, Mr Hunt had all the previous day to day he would go to ACAS, yet he left it until 5pm to make that decision, which was too late for any lists to be reinstated etc, so although there was no strike, he basically caused the same amount of disruption.

They all want to get to consultant level status and wages but don’t want to do the work. If you aren’t prepared to do the work don’t become a doctor simple, expect consultant status handed to you on a plate, then piss off to private sector to milk the NHS a bit more .

You really have absolutely no idea on so many levels. If you want me to begin explaining I will, but I think it would be lost on you.

GrahamS – I look forward to the day when MrsFD is filling out Consultant applications, at least then I might actually get to see her at home, rather than her constantly being st the Golf Course as she is now 🙂

Why are stupid people allowed on the Internet?
I am saddened by the complete failure of some to grasp the actual nub of the argument and to simply spout the line that cHunt has been feeding the media. Yes, there are two sides to every story but his is a manipulative, devious, bare faced lie of a story when it comes to trying to make the other side, the medical profession, look bad.
Those of you who think the strike is about money, that doctors have it lucky and are being unreasonable, maybe do a little research into their training requirements, the financial and time commitment. Their working conditions once qualified, the progression rates and requirements to higher level posts. How about considering the simple fact that these are the people we trust to look after us and our relatives & friends when they are ill, injured, dying. Do you want to risk them being pushed so hard that they make a mistake? They don’t, that’s one of the reasons they are striking.
In absolute terms doctors do,indeed earn good money but by Christ they earn it. Do they really deserve to be given an effective pay cut?
The whole ‘7 day NHS’ thing really angers me too. Who can refute the fact that there is always 7 day essential care cover available? Who has ever tried to go to the ED on a Sunday and found it closed? I agree that we ought to be able to provide non acute services over the whole week and that would ease waiting times and improve care provision, but trying to force the existing workforce to work longer hours won’t fill the space.
Please, do,a bit of reading beyond the red tops, or the BBC news channel. Actually consider what is happening. If you can’t do that, step away from the keyboard and keep your ill informed, moronic comments to,yourself.

Mattbe – to some extent I actually disagree with you. In any job sector any where in the world, if you pay 20% less than you can get working for other companies, then you will only attract poor candidates and therefore your business will suffer, I would hope even the people who disagree with the docs here would agree with this!

So if Mr Hunt does get away with reducing doctors pay, then expect the future quality of doctors to be lower, does anyone really want that ??

FD, I’m confused as to what you mean there, you say you disagree but your following statement doesn’t appear to relate to what I said, in fact you appear to be in agreement?

Infographic for the hard-of-reading:

(Much bigger originals available here)

With the massive commodities drop I’m not sure doctors will be so required in the Middle East, Canada or Australia for a while.

Weird that people so wedded to the idea of the NHS are happy to leg it to the Middle East or the USA.

mattbee – Member
How about considering the simple fact that these are the people we trust to look after us and our relatives & friends when they are ill, injured, dying. Do you want to risk them being pushed so hard that they make a mistake? They don’t, that’s one of the reasons they are striking.
In absolute terms doctors do,indeed earn good money but by Christ they earn it. Do they really deserve to be given an effective pay cut?

Trust? Yes, to certain extend but what choice do you have if you are poor or financially not viable?

Ok this is in the far east and Not in the UK …

Two weeks ago my uncle in the far east was told he has stage 4 liver cancer …

I mean he went for medical check up 2 years ago (over there) but was not told the result until the recent check up again when he felt slightly uncomfortable. The result given to him by the doctor was stage 4 liver cancer (might be similar to Bowie) … WTF! Whaatttt? Now my uncle is waiting to die coz it might be too late to deal with the cancer.

Well, we feel angry and a sad because my uncle will die unless something is done but since it will cost a lot for medication in the far east my uncle has decided that if it’s time to go … he will go. In the meantime we shall have to revert to traditional herbal medication to see if we can prolong his life a little bit longer.

In the far east there are so many junior doctors my father was told there were several junior doctors competing for patients according to the slightly senior doctor. Then the senior doctor told my father that they (senior doctors) were going elsewhere for greener pasture … my bet is that they will come here.

If junior doctors here want to work abroad then go ahead coz there will be competition. There seem to be over supplied of under qualified/experienced doctors in the far east but then on paper they are as good as the junior doctors here …

Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these

Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors’ concerns across – I guess because it’s hard to express in 140 characters – I don’t find it surprising that people are so astonishingly ignorant about what doctors are actually arguing for. The BBC’s output has been particularly galling.

in fact you appear to be in agreement?

Sorry was trying to do 20 things at once this morning and misread the context of your post!

…both our posts are still very valid.

As an aside

I do feel the leaders of the BMA are doing shockingly badly at countering Hunt. Mr Hunt was brought in to the Government as a spin doctor, and I have to say it is the one thing that he is very good at.

BMA really do need to up their game.

Yeah I think the BMA and the junior doctors are relying on honesty and reasoned arguments.

Sadly that isn’t the way politics or public opinion works these days.

Hunt knows all the tricks and is happy to use them.

Then the senior doctor told my father that they (senior doctors) were going elsewhere for greener pasture … my bet is that they will come here.

They already do. Despite jamba’s protestations about oversubscribed medical posts the NHS is heavily propped up by foreign doctors and nurses.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/28/-sp-nhs-hires-3000-foreign-doctors-staff-shortage

I think they are starting to cotton on – for example in countering the “15 out of 16” bullsh1t. Also saw a v good interviewee on C4 News last night (forget his name), who also made the point that *unt’s “statistics” make no sense.

I have to say that everything the government says seems to make sense. The problem is it either has not been reported or is not being put across properly what the BMA is actually saying. Yes lots of headlines but not detail. At the end of the day the government should publish what it is trying to achieve and then let the BMA publish all of the various options that could be put in place to achieve this. The BMA says the NHS already works 7 days a week. Yes if you are very very ill but if anyone has had a loved one in hospital over the weekend we all know the whole place seems to shut down. Simply walk up and down the corridors and they are deserted unlike the normal weekday hustle and bustle.

Doctors need to realise that they are just public sector workers like everyone. They are not special or the chosen ones just an employee like everyone else. They are no different from nurses, paramedics or anyone else in the NHS. Yes they might be more qualified but so it the IT support technical sitting beside the admin staff in 1000’s of offices. Doctors have chosen their profession, they weren’t forced into it and they need to play by the rules that the managers and government out in place. Just like any other business.

Now I agree that doctors should be paid well and anti social hours should be evenly distributed across them. But at the end of the day the NHS needs to work 7 days a week. And for all the Facebook posts of doctors saying “Look I have just finished a 100hr shift” how is this good. Bloody irresponsible and dangerous if you ask me. Would it be good to see a lorry driver brag that he had just worked a 100hr shift. I think not. Lorry drivers and many many other professions are not allowed to work stupidly long hours so why do doctors not only do it but actively campaign that they want to be able to do it!!

Doctors need to be told once and for all to get in line and that they do not own the NHS. (This is now it works in the private sector) Government at the same time needs to insist on efficiencies in the NHS, modern practices and pay decent salaries. Companies have worked out how to do this for years and years and years so it is not impossible to sort this out. If the NHS falls apart then it is our job as the electorate to boot the politicians out and vote in people that will fix the NHS.

Rant over…

. If the NHS falls apart then it is our job as the electorate to boot the politicians out and vote in people that will fix the NHS.

I suppose out of all that crock there had to be at least a tiny bit that makes sense.

And for all the Facebook posts of doctors saying “Look I have just finished a 100hr shift” how is this good.

well quite

Lorry drivers and many many other professions are not allowed to work stupidly long hours so why do doctors not only do it but actively campaign that they want to be able to do it!!

Good god. Is that what you think they’re trying to do?! I don’t even know where the BMA start if people are that ignorant.

woody74 – Member
…Lorry drivers and many many other professions are not allowed to work stupidly long hours so why do doctors not only do it but actively campaign that they want to be able to do it!!

eh?

longer hours is not what they’re campaigning for.

(mostly, they want to be protected from overly long hours, Hunt wants to remove this protection)

Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors’ concerns across

Rubbish, there has been plenty outlining both sides positions on the likes of BBC, Guardian and Telegraph websites.

Ok so do we all agree that doctors should not work or be allowed to work unless their is an emergency, more than a 40hr week?

If you don’t agree then why not?

Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors’ concerns across

The BMA Mark Porter bloke was on Radio 4 this morning. If he can’t get the doctor’s concerns across given that platform then he should stand down and let someone else do the job.

Ok so do we all agree that doctors should not work or be allowed to work unless their is an emergency, more than a 40hr week?

Huh? You’re arguing for far, far more protection than even the BMA are. You’re on their side, not the government’s.

(mostly, they want to be protected from overly long hours, Hunt wants to remove this protection)

I think Hunt’s proposal may impose a slightly lower overall weekly max, but there’d be essentially no limit to what proportion of that weekly total could be during what used to be unsocial hours due to the removal of what, effectively, is a financial disincentive fror trusts to make individual doctors work very long daily hours without appropriate breaks/rest

Weird that people so wedded to the idea of the NHS are happy to leg it to the Middle East or the USA.

Dont you argue its human nature to be greedy?
Why are you not comending them for this inevitable action?

I do so love the way Tories forget their principles when the argument suits

FWIW clearly its possible to both love the NHS and refuse to work under certain conditions.

I have to say that everything the government says seems to make sense

I have no idea what you wrote after that as I struggle to believe anyone thinks this about any govt let alone this one on this issue. I therefore had no interest in what you subsequently thought

I was tempted to just put [ shout] NURSE[/Shout]

scaredypants: yep, as I understand it, it is effectively a move away from a system of “if your Trust make you work long hours then you’ll be paid extra for them – ramping up to the point where it’d be cheaper for them to create a second post”

And towards a system of “if you work long hours and they get logged then an external auditor might spot it or you can decide to ruin your career by suing your hospital trust”

Err … think it’s the government who you need to be putting that question to – you know, the ones who you think have got everything right.