doctors on strike

Indeed they do, that’s why they committed to spend an extra £8bn a year vs the Labour pledge of just £2bn.

Any view on why he signed a document that proposed the removal of the NHS?
FWIW even most Tories accept that they have no hope of getting rid of it

How much they love it and how much they want to chip away at it with sniping and changes [ see also BBC for this approach] is open to debate – well not by loyal supporters like you but the rest of us

That’ll be why they’re trying to privatise it, then – out of love.

Yet the person mainly responsible for actually doing so remains Andy ‘mid staffs’ Burnham…

Any view on why he signed a document that proposed the removal of the NHS?

I see you’re making stuff up again, since we’ve already done the ‘one of many co-authors of a position paper’ thing, but if I was seeking to excuse him, I would suggest that ‘maybe he didn’t read it before signing it’ 😆

Fair point as to my wording but the point remains about chipping away and very few [ loyal tories and trolls aside] want to argue that the Tories love the socialist health care in their hearts

More lies and half-truths twisted to suit the agenda:

The elective births and c-sections are all done Monday-Friday and these are relatively safe.
So that skews the figures to make the weekdays appear “safer”. If you adjust for that then there is no difference in mortality.

As ‘just’ a mental health nurse by trade, even I knew from my first year of training lord knows how many years ago that the complications and early warning signs leading to stillbirth often occur (and could/should) be detectable several days before birth. Meaning that ‘all those’ stillbirths at the weekend might be equaly or probably more likely down to mistakes and failings that happened on tuesday or wednesday.

And then with reference to this latest nonsense story, the head of the royal college of obstetricians came on radio four the day before yesterday and said just the same thing 8)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30207608?SThisFB – Another shining example of Hunt’s awesomeness

The Ultrasound Kit that is used is portable (so not fixed)

How much does a full Ultrasound Kit cost? I’m wondering if it’s more or less than the “average” bunch of tools to be found in the small van of eg a lift technician, bike mechanic or plumber.

I know the small portable one used for really superficial guidance like lines/nerve blocks and such costs about 4 to 6k. It’s nowhere near good enough for diagnostic or imaging deeper than a few cms.

A full on diagnostic machine costs upwards of 15k, possibly more if it’s for specialised uses.

Strike is called off
https://communities.bma.org.uk/junior_doctors_industrial_action/b/junior_doctors_ia/archive/2015/11/30/industrial-action-suspended-return-to-39-genuine-negotiations-39

“temporarily suspended”

Postponed rather than called off. BMA have an extension of another 28 days (until 13 Jan) to use the mandate to strike if negotiations don’t continue to make progress. Government have lifted the threat of imposing a new contract within that timeframe (ie whilst negotiations are still ongoing).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34965603 another defeat for the conservatives, they lost again

Well at least one Sun “journalist” will be upset by that.

@Jeremy_Hunt tweeted:

Victory for common sense. Strike shouldn’t have been called w/o talking to govt first but great for 7 day services

— https://mobile.twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/671423653402275843

Pity sake. He really doesn’t get it does he?

I can’t post an appropriate response to that here, but Dr Rant’s feelings sum it up very eloquently:
https://www.facebook.com/DrRant/posts/1116958531662689:0 😀

What a complete prat. What’s more worrying is that Cameron doesn’t even appear interested in either this idiot in charge, or what could have potentially happened tomorrow.

Edit: Sorry was in the middle of posting when posted above 🙂

He’s clearly taking the piss.

It’s a parody account. It must be…

His statement to Parliament is equally laughable. He does appear to be operating in a complete alternate universe:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/statement-on-junior-doctors-contract

That tweet’s a new low for him, which considering how low he already was, is impressive.

I’ve been attributing everything to malice and the desire to cause damage but this one actually reminds me of Jim Murphy somehow- when it became obvious towards the end that he’d lost all connection with reality but he still had party faithful and reporters hanging around him telling him how everything was going to be fine. When you stopped laughing at him and just started hoping someone would help him. It somehow doesn’t feel like lying, more like fantasy

this idiot in charge

I don’t know why some people dismiss politicians they don’t agree with as idiots. Hunt, Cameron, Osborne, etc, are not idiots – they are doing stuff which Thatcher won’t have dreamt of doing, and all the while convincing a sizable chunk of the electorate that they are moderate one nation Tories.

They are not stupid, they know exactly what they are doing.

They have just won a general election and if one was called tomorrow they would almost certainly win that one.

If you really want to point a finger at stupidity then I suggest you look at the Christmas voting turkeys which the Tories rely on so much.

It’s a parody account. It must be…

Was my first thought, but if it is then it has probably failed in its role as parody because it’s just sadly too believable! 👿

I don’t know why some people dismiss politicians they don’t agree with as idiots. Hunt, Cameron, Osborne, etc, are not idiots – they are doing stuff which Thatcher won’t have dreamt of doing, and all the while convincing a sizable chunk of the electorate that they are moderate one nation Tories.

It’s not the fact that I disagree with his policies/ideals. If he stood up and said what he thought (that he sees the only future for the NHS to be at least partial if not compete privatisation) then I’d actually have more respect and faith in him.

It’s his consistent undermining of public perception in the medical profession with statements like the above that leaves me with no confidence in him.

ecampbell – are you just reading into it what you want to read into it though?

You seem very certain that he has a secret agenda to privatise everything so don’t you think that the Tories would be cracking on with that now unencumbered by a coalition with the Lib Dems if that’s what they really intended.

Despite what the rabid left would have us believe – and they’ve been telling us for close to 40 years that the Tories want to dismantle the NHS the facts of the matter are that every Tory government has left office with NHS spending higher than when the started. It’s also a fact that every Health minister (Labour and Conservative) has been subject to highly personalised attacks by the BMA.

And what say you to the inconvenient facts that private sector provision rose faster under the last Labour government than any government before or since?

Private sector activity has barely changed in the 6 years since Labour left office although it is fair to say that NHS trusts are still saddled with £80B of PFI loans and close to £2Bn of interest payments from when “anti privatisation” Andy Burnham was in charge.

As for the above tweet – most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense – even if it will come too late for the many patients due to have elective surgery, many of whom will now have to spend weeks in pain due to their operations being rescheduled.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA’s refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

just5minutes – Member

As for the above tweet – most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense

Oh come on! Yes it is common sense to go to ATAS and to suspend the threat of imposing the new contract while negotiations are going. Nobody objects to that, it’s just a shame it took the threat of strike action to get him to do it, and doubly a shame that he intentionally maximised disruption by leaving it til the last minute to make the announcement. But yes the outcome is sensible if not the route.

It’s the other part. “Strike shouldn’t have been called without talking to government first”, which people are objecting to- because it’s an enormous lie and he knows it. It’s not a misrepresentation, or open to interpretation, it’s just 100% untrue. Hands up everyone who thinks that’s a good way for a minister to behave? OK, now hands up everyone who thinks this is a good basis for a sensible negotiation- “Before we start, let me publically remind you that I can’t be trusted”

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA’s refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

🙄

This is simply total and utter BS. In 30 years in the business I cannot recall such total and utter unanimous support for action in the profession. Your statement casts doubt on your agenda and your credibility. I call Troll.

If JH had agreed to ACAS intervention before 5 days ago, and/or not threatened to impose a contract unilaterally, and/or agreed months ago to discuss more than 1 out of 23 points, the action would not have been happening. he has acted in bad faith and tried to demonise the Juniors all the way along, and the “Medical Establishment” is absolutely behind them.

You are absolutely right about the private sector involvement though. Private providers have shown very little interest recently apart from AQP providers of relatively small services, because there are not significant profits to be made. Look at Blue Circle and their saga…

I suspect the Conservatives would like much more private involvement, but it isn’t going to happen within the current budgets, unless there is a wholesale move to private insurance.

As for the above tweet – most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense

Yes… Jeremy Hunt’s common sense.

even if it will come too late for the many patients due to have elective surgery, many of whom will now have to spend weeks in pain due to their operations being rescheduled.

Yes it’s rather a shame that Mr Hunt only relented at the last possible hour, ensuring there was lots of disruption he could point a wagging public finger at without actually having the criticism of a strike to deal with.

But I’m sure he had his reasons.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA’s refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

Erm… not from what I’ve seen… which has been support from pretty much every field, both at institutional and member level (despite alleged threats from the government to remove the Royal Charter from institutions that backed the BMA position).

not threatened to impose a contract unilaterally

Apparently when he said he would impose the contract he didn’t really mean during negotiations. Because no government would do that…

Is this the political equivalent of the Edinburgh Defense?

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA’s refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year

Eh ? 75% voted, of those 98% voted to strike – not exactly none.
I havent met a consultant yet who doesnt support them, many have made public statements of support.

The reason they refused to meet is Mr Hunt wouldnt discuss most of their grievances and he refused to back down on the statement that he would impose the contract anyway – not exactly discussing things in good faith is it ?
Straight after the vote the BMA offered to go to arbitration, Mr Hunt refused until the last minute.

The man is delusional

every Tory government has left office with NHS spending higher than when the started

Aye inflation is a wonderful thing

Even then I wager its not true but your every post is some strange distorted tory spin that has gone as far as just be factually wrong TBH I am surprised folk bother to respond to your shite.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA’s refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year

Nice attempt at spin. Got any evidence to back it up?

People who don’t get there are other people having to work harder in shittier roles for longer hours than them Shocker!!

Priveledged arseholes

well, with evidence like that…

As opposed to idiots who would be happy with a pay cut, removal of maximum hours and safety elements when they have already lost an average of 14% since 2009 and carry 5 or 6 years of student debt, and earn less than people in jobs with less responsibility and training…

Epic logic fail. If it’s that brilliant, you do it 🙄

You’re right phil, unless you have the worst job in the world, you shouldn’t ever complain about anything.

People who don’t get there are other people having to work harder in shittier roles for longer hours than them Shocker!!

No matter what job you do phil I guarantee there is someone somewhere in the world doing a shittier job for less money.

That doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to complain if your employer tries to force contract changes that remove safe working limits on your hours and drop your pay, whilst pretending it does exactly the opposite.

How much do you think they pay the elephant doctor? I’ll hazard the callout fee is more than some earn in a week

It’s relevant though there’s a head up an arse .

just5minutes – yes that’s my interpretation, but based on the bigger picture it’s the only conclusion I can draw.

You seem very certain that he has a secret agenda to privatise everything so don’t you think that the Tories would be cracking on with that now unencumbered by a coalition with the Lib Dems if that’s what they really intended.

They essentially are. The NHS is struggling financially. The population is living increasingly longer with chronic conditions, costing more. Better, newer, more high tech treatments are becoming increasingly prevalent, further increasing costs. The NHS is already struggling to deal with this, and its only going to get worse. The whole “7 day” debacle is going to spread things even thinner!! It’s easy to sell to the electorate as improving their service – the reality is it’ll make it worse.
Privatisation would be wildly unpopular with the electorate, they know this, so are resorting to subtler ways.

I’m not against privatisation. I believe that the quality of peoples healthcare should not be influenced by their wealth, and that clinical decision making should not be influenced by wanting to make profit. Whether this funding involves private providers/insurance or by government facilitated means doesn’t bother me. (And yes, the use of private sector by NHS under labour want exactly cost efficient, I agree).

As for the above tweet – most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense – even if it will come too late for the many patients due to have elective surgery, many of whom will now have to spend weeks in pain due to their operations being rescheduled.

Postponing the strike was the right thing to do. Why it took so long to agree to go to ACAS I don’t know. The BMA offered it before the strike was called, the government refused. Take from that what you will.
In terms of disruption caused, yes it’s a shame, but in the grand scheme of things it’s minimal. Emergancy and urgent stuff will still get done, lives will not be in danger. The press were quoting 4000 cancelled. When you compare this to the number cancelled every week due to theatre delays, equipment availability and other issues, it’s going to cause minimal delays.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA’s refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

Sorry what? Pretty much the entire “medical establishment” has supported the decision. A few of the royal colleges have made ambiguous politically correct statements not criticising either side, but that’s been as far “against” any of the establishments have come out with.

People who don’t get there are other people having to work harder in shittier roles for longer hours than them Shocker!!

So you’ll only be happy if everyone is working shitty roles for long hours for low pay? Is that what they call a race to the bottom?

If other people are being forced to work dangerously long hours in shitty jobs why don’t they speak up? Don’t resent doctors just because they have decent representation.

Sorry what? Pretty much the entire “medical establishment” has supported the decision. A few of the royal colleges have made ambiguous politically correct statements not criticising either side, but that’s been as far “against” any of the establishments have come out with.

The royal colleges etc, have supported the campaign by the JDs but not their decision to strike. It is possible to support the aim without supporting the method and the nuance is in what’s not said rather than what is said. If you read what the MRCs have published they support individual Doctor’s right to industrial action but do not seem to have given blanket support to the plan for a national strike.

What the MRCs have said is as follows:
“The academy is urging both sides in the current dispute around junior doctors’ contracts to step back from the brink and re-enter negotiations in good faith so that an agreement can be reached. Failure to do so will have an adverse impact on the NHS and current and future patients.”

They don’t seem to have said – “a national strike is a jolly good idea” or “we fully support it”.

https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/media-statement/rcpe-continues-share-concerns-junior-doctors

This was the statement released on 6th November by the Royal College that I’m a member of (Royal College of the Physicians of Edinburgh), which seems to come down squarely on the side of junior doctors as I read it:

“We continue to share many of the concerns of junior doctors about the current proposals for the new contract in England. The threat of imposition is adversely affecting morale, increasing pressure on staff who already work in a challenging environment, and creating an unsettling situation for patients.

“As a Royal College we are not part of the contract negotiations, but we share the fears that the contract will impact upon the delivery of high-quality patient care, the future sustainability of the NHS in England, and feel there could be potential ramifications across the UK.

“We urge everyone involved to restart negotiations without preconditions as a matter of urgency, bearing in mind the concerns that exist across the healthcare profession.

“A conciliation service – independent of Government – should be brought in to manage the negotiations and help resolve this situation.”

My own emphasis added to highlight why we were striking – the threat of imposition and refusal to re-enter independently mediated negotiations by the government.