Disc brakes are shite: The conclusion

In fact Mrs kona_ona’s going to get it right now. Far more fun than mtb’s.

So I would assume 8)

The pads are made from the same compound that motorbike and car pads are made from. I don’t brake differently in my car after new pads have been fitted nor do the fitter or manufacturers suggest I do. I’m no extreme rider and probably do as much slow braking on a ride as I do fast braking and it makes no difference whatsoever IMO how you use them after they’ve been fitted from new.

The bedding them in thing comes from people fitting new pads and finding them a bit rubbish so assuming some procedure must be followed to make them work properly. Yes, there is probably some time where pads will fit themselves to your disks but it’s not something you have to follow methodically before you can trust them. If you don’t use your brakes much then it’ll take longer for them to fit your disks but it’s not going to make them last any longer.

As far as the disk versus rim brakes things goes, if I can fit a disk to a bike I will do. Disks are hugely superior to rim brakes in all conditions but especially in the wet. In sandy conditions (like where I ride) I can kill rim pads in one ride. Disk pads will last for months. And rims fail eventually, i’ve killed many, disks last effectively forever.

I don’t brake differently in my car after new pads have been fitted nor do the fitter or manufacturers suggest I do.

You should though, as most manufacturers DO suggest you bed them if you read their technical blurbs. Whether your fitter is useless and doesnt tell you is another matter. You’ll find if you bed your car brakes they work a lot better also!

EBC – make OEM pads…
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/troubleshooting.html
Federal-mogul(ferodo) – make your bog standard cheapo motor factors pads
http://www.federal-mogul.com/FEDERAL-MOGUL/Templates/Template_E1.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b3D8716C9-C270-407E-A48D-49E5A7B5ECE3%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fen%2fAftermarketSolutions%2fEMEA%2fBrakingSolutions%2fProducts%2fBrakePads-Shoes%2fFerodoRacingBrakePads%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest

Pagid (make standard and performance pads but applies to both):
http://www.braketechnology.com/brakepadbedding.html

….any more? 😀

So on balance, can we say it’s the OP & not the bike then?
😆

On balance I think we can say that there is an interplay of many complex factors that affect pad wear but that making sure the pads are well bedded in would seem to be well worth trying if you get premature pad wear.

The science seems to agree that for optimum performance 3 things need to occur, the pad needs to conform to the disc, a microscopic thin layer of pad mat4erial needs to adhere to the disc and that heat and pressure finishes the curing of the pad.

Some folks riding styles achieve this easily in normal riding, some folks riding styles mean that they need to make a deliberate effort to do this.

“I agree we’re taken for mugs though – pads for my car last 1000’s of miles of hard driving stopping 1.5 tonnes, pads for my bike last maybe damn, your bike weight 100kgs!! That’s heavy”

When I brake I like to stop me and the bike! 😉

I just changed some Hope mini pads (Front – sintered) after 5 years of abuse – there was still some pad left. I agree, it’s a con and I want my money back. 😉
Bedded in with a few sharp sprint-stops btw.

Bedding in for performance is obviously true, stick some new pads in and the brakes don’t work as well for a while. That’s why manufacturers suggest bedding pads in.

Bedding in for longevity is something else altogether, and far less plausible.

You’ve probably got the message now, that disc brakes are actually “a good thing” and that you shouldn’t let your one bad experience sway your judgement.
I have had pads wear extremely quickly and the supplier replaced them free of charge – however, I now only buy sintered pads as they perform better and last longer.
Try em.
Discs have so many advantages over vs/cantis that I can’t really be arsed to list them.
Can anyone think of advantages Vs have over discs?
I’ll start –
1. they are a bit lighter.

I took a look at the EBC web site ref bedding in pads and then went to the MTB section and spotted a Warning about no warranty when their pads are used with some fancy saw-type rotors. Another possible factor?

Another Disc brake fan here.

I notice in your original post that you manage to wear out a set of pads doing one WS race at Thetford?

I ride there at least once a week and have done 3 of the 4 WS races this season at Thetford. I put my new Juicys on in September, I think, and the pads are just about getting to the point where they need replacing. So 6 months isn’t too bad.

I do bed my pads in. I didn’t bother once and they did seem to wear very quickly. Living in possibly the flattest bit of the country, I find 10 hard sprints up and down the road with some heavy braking gets them bloody hot!

As for the comparison with cars…..hmmm. Cars generally don’t drive off road and have the associated mud/grit/sand problems. The pads also have ~20 time the surface area of a mountain bike pad, if not more and are far thicker & heavier. With bikes it’s always a compromise as the rider can only tolerate so much weight. Sure, they could build a brake system for bikes that meant pads lasted 50k miles, but you wouldn’t want to ride with it.

Right heres a simple test:

Half way through a muddy ride look at your rotors. Are they :

A) Nice and shiny
B) Covered in mud
C) Covered in grey pasty slop.

If your answer is C then you drag your brakes and use the grit to slow you down rather than the brake pads friction! Its your own fault and learn to ride with a little skill brake dragger….

DH riders pads last ages, because they brake harder and get the dirt off the rotor rather than grinding it down. Also if you drove your car off road and dragged the brakes, the pads wouldnt last long either…..

TNP

“As for the comparison with cars…..hmmm. Cars generally don’t drive off road and have the associated mud/grit/sand problems. The pads also have ~20 time the surface area of a mountain bike pad, if not more and are far thicker & heavier. With bikes it’s always a compromise as the rider can only tolerate so much weight. Sure, they could build a brake system for bikes that meant pads lasted 50k miles, but you wouldn’t want to ride with it.”

Fair point about longeivity of the pads – and as well as the weight you wouldn’t have space to put car or motorbike sized pads in – but why, when they’re 20 times less surface area and thicker does an axle set of car brake pads cost the same as a pair of bike ones?

It’s cos we’re all taken for mugs.

With regards bedding in of non MTB related pads I can say for sure that when I was rallying cars it was absolutely critical.
The effects of bedding and matching pad to disc was huge, plus the methodology was also key. They could not be ‘prepared’ driving to stage so we also had matched pad & disc sets as spares in the service van.

Basic bedding was similar to mentioned here though – repeated stops – hard but not very hard and then allow to cool right down before actual usage.

Failure to bed in meant that performance was shockingly poor and that pads would either crack (before crumbling) or glaze over.

Can “glazed” pads be recovered?

another happy disc brake user here

ive never bedded in any pads, hope mini and m4 and they all seem to last ages

Philjunior….partly we are paying a premium, I don’t doubt that.
But, economies of scale will have something to do with it – how many hundreds of thousands of Fiesta/Focus pads do Ford sell worldwide per yr compared to Hope pads?

Same as anything bikey though – not just brakes. And if you don’t like it, then don’t spend the money – that’s all there is to it. OR start your own company making/sourcing cheap bits.
I remember when i bought my Stumpjumper, a friend was moaning because the rear shock on his Suzuki Bandit 600 had collapsed and it was costing him £220 for a new one (fitteed, I think). At the time, a replacement rear shock for my bike was over £300. Ho hum.

disc brakes should just work and last a while. But they don’t.

Come on mate – dozens of people on here telling you they’re great, hundreds of thousands of people around the world using them just fine. So there are two options:

1) Assume that almost every mtber in the world is the deluded victim of unscrupulous marketing and allows a bad product to be forced upon them or

2) You’re doing something wrong.

Which is more likely?

FWIW the worst pad wear I’ve ever had is about half a pad on a long wet gritty ride. Rides THAT wet are few and far between tho, so my pads will still typically last 6 months. UNLESS I ride Cwmcarn in the rain, which usually costs about £60 at least in new parts. It’s really bad. It’s usually great in the wet but if it’s actually raining over a certain amount at the time – forget it. Maybe you need to adapt your riding to the conditions in the case of really bad weather?

Thing is, V brake pads would wear just as quickly in those conditions. Oh and btw they are still available, yet most people ride discs.

Druidh – yes. Sand down the surface and re bed

I accept that many people have disc brakes that do “just work”. I do however feel the injustice of not having been sold one of those sets of brakes quite keenly.

🙂

Well I like disc brakes they are cool but pads can evaporate shockingly quick. I have several bikes with discs, I set them all up similarly bedding them in and most last for a long time however the bike I ride through real filth (singlespeed) can reduce pads to backing plates in under 30miles. Some hope pads have lasted months others 1 ride, disco and SS brakes are similar (tho on the whole hopes do tend to last longer) It’s not just muddy rides that trash pads, it tends to be the really wet rides with loads of standing water. I’m probably guilty of dragging brakes in the mud (its wet and slippy excuse me if I dont brake hard and late like a proper DHer) but I don’t see any instructions on the pads or brakes that say “sorry this product is not up to the job if you mince down the hills with brakes on”. Oh and I was recently out on a group ride and quite a few complained about their disc brakes. So for the SS i’ve switched to rim brakes with cheap rims, pads are 2pr for £5 and last longer than disc pads on a bad day and in the long run it should be quite a bit cheaper.

Ok here’s another question:

Are those wavy discs (magura?) any better? Theoretically they should clear the cack better and help your pads last longer.

Also, do bigger rotors help more? Or bigger FR style brakes like Hope V2s? Again they should theoretically, I think.

I have an unproven suspicion that for most folk big discs are worse as they cool so well that the pad / disc interface never reaches full operational temperature where the “semifuid boundary layer” of partly melted pad does not form hence leading to abrasive friction rather than adherant friction.

I thought of a way of explaning the two types of friction. (can be done in your imagination) Run the palm your hand along the table with a bit of pressure – the friction you feel is abrasive friction. Then coat your hand in golden syrup and do the same – similar amount of force required but your hand does not touch the table – there is a layer of sticky stuff inbetween – thats adherant friction

I get your point TJ, but that’s not strictly true – your syrup example has fluid shear going on.

However, I do think heat is a big factor, evidenced by the fact that tandems (as I’m sure you know) seem to have much better working brakes. Rotors go blue with the heat of stopping twice the weight and the brakes are then mega powerful and pads last ages in my experience.

However, I do think heat is a big factor, evidenced by the fact that tandems (as I’m sure you know) seem to have much better working brakes. Rotors go blue with the heat of stopping twice the weight and the brakes are then mega powerful and pads last ages in my experience.

I can’t be arsed to read through this whole thread (I’m sorry, but that’s the way it is!), but this comment rings true.

Why do we “put up with the crap we’re peddled by MTB disc brake pad manufacturers?” was one question. Errrrrr… Well the simple answer is the environment in which we use our machines is very very harsh on equipment. If you are to compare (which it seems people are doing) riding a mountain bike through mud, with using a car on the roads, it’s 2 very different situations. When your car has new brake pads, you’ve got several things to help the pads “bed in” (which likewise they need to do, go drive your car through the mud for days on new brake pads, see what happens! 😉 ). You’ve got the weight of the car, relatively small brakes, and mud free conditions. The brakes will get HOT very easily, helping the pads to bed in. It is much more difficult, though not at all impossible, to get MTB brakes hot.

And this is the point, fit new pads to your MTB, first thing you should be trying to do is get the brakes nice and stinking hot. It’s not marketing guff, or a cop out, or a fix to a problem that shouldn’t be there. By their very nature, brake pads NEED bedding in, which requires getting some bloody heat into them! Otherwise they stay fairly soft and easily abraded by things like mud.

Put it this way, I’ve ridden with a few different brake pads (though not fabled SSC ones I must admit), and each time, regardless of organic Vs sintered, I’ve bedded them in properly. I always get a lot of use out of my brake pads before they need changing, and my brakes always work very well!

My point is mountain bikes are designed to ride through mud…. 😕

Kona_bona buy some decent pads. The less u pay the less they last in my experience. Superstar=1-5 rides, EBC=several months

Never bother bedding any pads in.

Buy some EBC’s give em a go and report back in several months (hopefully!)

I always get a lot of use out of my brake pads before they need changing, and my brakes always work very well!

Anyone who doesn’t ride in a sandstone area will say the same thing. The biggest factor by far is the soil in the area you ride.

Anyone who doesn’t ride in a sandstone area will say the same thing. The biggest factor by far is the soil in the area you ride.

Fair comment.

Though bedding in properly does make a lot of difference.

Kona_bona buy some decent pads. The less u pay the less they last in my experience. Superstar=1-5 rides, EBC=several months

Not always the case. EBC’s don’t last as long as some cheaper pads IMO, though longer than many. A2Z’s are the best IMO.

We got a conclusion yet? Apart from any STWer could have an argument in an empty room?

I enjoy stopping in the rain and when my rim is dented etc V brakes have their place but not on my bike.

Except on my roadbike they are ok.

Molgrips
Not remotely enough evidence to conclude wavy rotors are better but my magura martas have had fantastic pad life, especially considering they are not sintered and I am not exactly a lightweight.

However a new theory has just occurred to me. Do non-lightweights paradoxically get better pad life? When, after a long downhill, we shift our fat ar$es out over the back wheel and then slam on the anchors, considerably greater heat is generated for a given stopping distance compared to more malnourished types. Does this keep our pads in better nick than those who only need to caress the lever for a millisecond before going over the bars, never getting their pads up to temperature?

Lactic – I do suspect that those who get their brakes hot get better life out of them.

well just to upset the OP even more….

and this is honestly true…

I bought my first disc brake in 1998, since then every bike bar a couple has had discs, and I can count the times I’ve had to replace brake pads on on hand, yes a single hand… I even have one brake, a hope XC4 which is notoriously underpowered so needs heck of a lot of hand action to work properly, and since it’s life began in 2000 it has been on a trials bike, two single speeds, and a general trail bike, seen a LOT of miles and is on it’s 2nd set of pads ever.

And it’s not just that one brake I also have and have had…

Hope C2 – used to get about a year out of a set
Hope Mini – never changed in the 18months I had them
Hope Mono Mini – never changed in 12 months I had them
Avid BB7 – changed front pads only after 9 months, still going strong now after 12
Shimano Deore – Still on orginal set after 8 months, look like they have another 8 months at least in them
Hope XC4 (2 sets of brakes) see above, however did lose one pad off backing plate a couple of months back…

And no…I don’t deliberately bed them in either, I just use the brakes hard after new pads until they feel like they are working.

It sounds like crap I know but the above is honestly true, ask any of the guys I ride with if they’ve ever seen me change a pair of pads and the answer will be no.

Of course, for muddy conditions there’s always drum brakes. 😀

I have found that the two times i have had brake pads disappear in one ride was during the wet summer when the trails are harder than in winter as they have had a chance to dry and there is a lot of surface water mixed in with the mud so the brakes are getting constantly covered in abrasive muck. I have recently chenged my brakes to XT’s and in the couple of muddy rides that i have done you can hear the diffence when just riding along as the brakes are completly silent. Oh and the pads that dissapeared were both normall ssc ones (well beded in) and avid sintered ones also beded in.

I have seen certain pads where the entire friction material detaches from the back plate. Normally, this would just be perceived as “my brakes wore out in one ride” but I caught them in the act one time so have seen with my own eyes the friction material falling off the pad in a block.

The brake pads that I have seen fall apart are ssc normal ones, although I am sure they are not the only ones that suffer in this way. Most of the guys I ride with who use Superstar accept that they are cheap pads and assess whether or not they are four/five times worse than expensive pads.

I’ve gone round that loop and settled for using the manufacturer’s sintered pads in my brakes.

I wonder if non bedded in pads absorb water more than “cooked” ones?
I have noticed extra drag after wet rides that disappears next day after drying out.
This could mean wear throughout the ride even when not braking and perhaps a softening of the pads.

Just an idea.

FWIW here’s my input. Bedding in: you can feel a difference with new brakes or pads. Get on a bike with new brakes, ride along the road and apply the brakes. There will be almost no braking effect. Get the bike up to a good speed, then hit the brakes hard, releasing them before actually stopping, then doing it again a number of times, you’ll feel the brakes start to really bite. I’ve got four bikes with discs on, the oldest ones a set of Hope M4’s, now on my singlespeed, which are six years old, a set of M4 Monos, five years old, a set of Juicy 7’s, three years old, and a set of Avid BB5’s, also around three years old. All work perfectly, with occasional squeaking in the wet, and all are still on their original pads. I will say I live in a benign area, North Wilts, and I don’t ride hub-deep in mud, and I don’t drag my brakes. The cable discs are on their second set of cables, only because I changed from flippy levers when I SS’ed the bike. Discs just work. I have only bled one set, the M4’s, a couple of times, otherwise they’re left alone. I tried new pads in the M4’s because they started to shriek when I put carbon forks on the bike, but that made no difference so I put the originals back in. Contrast with the endless phaffing I had to do to keep rim brakes working, plus trashing a brand-new tyre 100yds from home when a pad moved and ripped through the sidewall, and I think you’ll agree that I wouldn’t use anything else. Possibly one of the best developments for modern cycling.