David Cameron quits

I know and the eyes are very sore – but its not sand its from staring at real facts not made up ones! There is no evidence to support any of the BS arguments on immigration. The “fact” that the trends that you identify exist are all reasons why this debate should not be allowed to descend into the xenophobic gutter beloved of Brexiteers.

“Race” is a sorry and shameful excuse for not addressing the real reasons behind the challenges that we and other economies face. We should all know better.

As an aside my eyes are also open to the terrible humanitarian disaster that is Syria and my heart is saddened by our woeful reaction to it, let alone our responsibilities.

Steady on, that sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory

For clod’s sake, that was a t-i-cheek comment!!

“Open your eyes and look around the UK and round the rest of Europe. Look what’s happenjng in Holland, France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia.”

Racism and far-right extremism (not to mention anti-Semitism, Jamba…) is massively on the rise across Europe, fuelled by right-wing ideology which ultimately seeks to divide people into more easily controllable groups, rather than have them united and with significant political power with which they could actively resist/overthrow said right-wing governments. It’s the insidious spreading of fear, through media outlets, that helps facilitate the divide and rule ideology of the right. That’s what’s actually happening in Europe.

It is not in the interests of the ruling elites, to counter this, as their power is totally reliant on a submissive, compliant and easily coerced labour force, who lack the political, economic and ideological power/will to do anything but obey.

The whole immigration thing is a smokescreen. Jamba; you may think your eyes are wide open, but you still can’t see through the smoke.

After what selection process?

hands up if you’ve been PM?

John Major Appointed European Chairman of The Carlyle Group

But the defence select committee today said it was Cameron’s fault for the rise of IS and therefore this ‘swarm’ of refugees and that has the right wingers across Europe so scared?

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A small consolation for Cameron is that Corbyn walked allover May today at PMQs

he must have taken a bit of solace from that as the last vestiges of his political reputation were dismantled by the select committee

@clod my point has always been (4 years I have been on about it now) that if the mainstream parties will not confront the issue they leave the door wide open for others and that carries a significant risk. Nowhere else in the world do you have freedom of movement, it’s a stupid idea. Being against a stupid idea doesn’t make you xenophobic, racist or a biggot. The countries with the greatest immigration have controlled systems, eg Australia, Singapore, US, Canada etc

@kimbers I watched PMQ as usual, Corbyn was indeed less terrible than usual but still very much second best to May. She also gave the SNP a battering pointing out that during the Referendum they had no credible plan on how they would stay in the EU in the event of a Yes.

So Jamby, what do you think is the root cause of scenes like this;

this;

and this?:

it’s a stupid idea.

On the contrary, the facts tell us v clearly that it is a good idea that brings positive benefits to the UK.

Being against a stupid idea doesn’t make you xenophobic, racist or a biggot.

It clearly leaves one open to those accusations in the absence of any factual evidence that points to the contrary. None was evident during the Brexit debacle, hence the most obvious conclusion is…..

If any BSer can point to real evidence to support the idea that immigration has had a negative impact on the UK economy then I will change my opinion. Until then….

She also gave the SNP a battering pointing out that during the Referendum they had no credible plan on how they would stay in the EU in the event of a Yes.

imagine a bunch of secessionists having no plan (or a any sort of clue about reality) post referendum!! 😆

Well @jivehoney… Theresa May probably doesn’t care for those images…in her last role she was responsible for the bus that drove around London with a huge sign telling immigrants to go home…clearly not a very nice lady.

“The countries with the greatest immigration have controlled systems, eg Australia, Singapore, US, Canada etc”

Well, if you’re droning on about ‘uncontrolled immigration’, then you really shouldn’t be mentioning Australia, Canada and the USA…. 🙄

“Nowhere else in the world do you have freedom of movement, it’s a stupid idea.”

Explain why, please.

In terms of immigration in terms of percentages of national populations, The USA, Canada and Australia are some way down the list, which is topped by the Vatican City, Andorra and Qatar. If you want to argue about economic impact of immigration, the top 10 also includes the UAE, Monaco, Kuwait, Singapore and Hong Kong. Interestingly, those are all rather wealthy nations with very high per capita GDP. Now we can use statistics and figures to argue anything, and it’s interesting to note that Palestine has one of the highest percentages of ‘immigrants’ too, make of that what you will. And we could also argue that several nations in the top 10 have appalling human rights records, and massive economic disparity. But basically, facts show that immigration is not something that generally has a negative economic effect. Ergo, it is a political and ideological smokescreen.

@clod yes the rise in intolerance includes anti-semitism. That’s in part why I have wanted the core issue dealt with all this time, to fail to do so leads to a darker place all round. As it stands the only way to deal with it is to vote FN etc. Now in the run up to the French elections Hollande is finally dealing with Calais and dismantling the camp completely and redistributiong the people around the whole country. Whether this will be enough to stop FN winning in the North I doubt, its too little too late and he will be eliminated in the Presidential Race. As you know you’t can’t achieve anything in opposition. The Poles and Hungarians elected firmly right anti immigration/refugee governments

“@clod yes the rise in intolerance includes anti-semitism. That’s in part why I have wanted the core issue dealt with all this time, to fail to do so leads to a darker place all round.”

Yet you never mention Islamophobia. Why not? Seeing as you claim to be so concerned with xenophobia…

“The Poles and Hungarians elected firmly right anti immigration/refugee governments”

One of the reasons I have heard from many people from those and other Eastern European countries, is that they feel their own nations are too right wing, and that they prefer to live in one that isn’t so. For them, freedom of movement is a wonderful thing, as it enables them to live somewhere where the prevailing ideology is preferable. Which kind of flies in the face of your claim that such freedom is a ‘stupid idea’. I’m wondering why you’re against freedom?

You’re very good at ignoring facts when presented to you, and going off on some other tangent. I think quite a few folk would actually like you to answer some of the questions asked of you, such as why do you think freedom of movement is such a ‘stupid idea’?

And aren’t you now somewhat embarrassed about mentioning the USA, Canada And Australia in the context of ‘uncontrolled immigration’?

The Independent on the Libyian Report. “Hindsightism”

linky

Yet you never mention Islamophobia

Is that jamba wang?

Oh bloody hell, don’t encourage him to breed!!

@clod both are equally bad. We have 5% of our citizems who are Muslims who absolutely deserve the same right to live and prosper in peace as any other citizen. Not wanting to accept large number of unvetted refugees many of whom are economic migrants from perfectly safe (if poor) countries isn’t Islamaphobic. UAE, Saudi etc are taking zero refugees.

What tangent am I going off on ? Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea and one no one else has copied. You can achieve the economic and social benefits of migration with a visa system with preferential treatment given to those from within the EU if you wish.

Why would I be embarrased to me tion the success of US, Canadian and Australian immigration systems ? My family where £10 poms in ’68

This may seem a touch off topic, but it’s wholly relevant to the refugee migration problems the world is facing at the moment… the eagle eyed among you will note Prince Bandar makes an appearance at 0:37 (he’s also one of the 1st characters mentioned in the book)

This ties in to not only the conflicts in Libya and Syria which are part of David Cameron’s legacy, but also the debates currently raging on Britain supplying arms to Saudi Arabia for the conflict in Yemen.

What action the current unelected Prime Minister of Her Majesty’s Government takes remains to be seen.

“@clod both are equally bad. “

Yet I’ve never seen you condemn it on here, in the same way you tried to condemn the Labour party/Corbyn over the ridiculous and now proven to be completely unfounded anti-Semitism allegations. I’ve never seen you condemn the vicious, racist Islamophobic tory campaign against Sadiq Khan (whom you mentioned yesterday in the London thread, for why I still have no idea) during the London mayoral election campaign. I don’t see you condemning the recent Islamophobia in France, regarding the farcical ‘burkini’ debacle. Etc.

“Not wanting to accept large number of unvetted refugees many of whom are economic migrants from perfectly safe (if poor) countries isn’t Islamaphobic.”

I hadn’t even mentioned refugees, I thought we were talking about Europe? And the UK admits refugees from many non-Muslim countries, what has their faith/culture got to do with anything? And the UK doesn’t accept ‘large numbers’ of ‘unvetted’ refugees anyway. So not wanting to accept them is an absolute nonsense. Germany took in more refugees from syria in one weekend, than the UK has agreed to take in in FIVE YEARS. Germany hasn’t actually collapsed as a nation.

“Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea”

But why, exactly? 3 times now I’ve asked you this.

“Why would I be embarrased to me tion the success of US, Canadian and Australian immigration systems ? My family where £10 poms in ’68”

Wow. Just, wow…. 🙄

CBA actually don’t worry.

You can’t call us immigration a success when the president candidate talks about building a wall to stop immigrants.

And same in Australia.

The points system works only for the people who follow it.

Illegal immigrants will come in in different ways.

You had a perfectly valid point before you edited your post nick… wasn’t going to argue with that.

I’m aware.

just; political threads… nothing personal.

You know what Dave wasn’t so bad…

I read this yesterday and it got me thinking..

Linky

despite hating most of what she writes …got a point?

Fair enough, but for future reference:

How is the British Prime Minister elected?

The British Prime Minister is not directly elected; instead, he or she is appointed by the Queen

The British Prime Minister election first takes place at the local level. Before being elected Prime Minister, the individual must secure a seat in the Parliament. To become a Member of Parliament, the candidate must secure more votes than his rival in their locality. If any party secures a majority, the Queen invites its respective leader to become Prime Minister and form government.

US controlled immigration has been a huge success. Their issue is the 11 million illegal immigrants who have either sneaked in or overstayed their visas. As Trump said in Mexico 1 million Mexicans the US legally every day, no issue with that.

Australia has an open transparent immigration policy, it didn’t used to be that way but it is now. It’s always been economically successful though.

@clod you’ve not been around here on the policitcal threads that long so perhaps not. As for Goldsmith’s campaign questions on some of the people Kahn has interacted with it wasn’t great but imo hardly “off the charts” as you seem to imply.

Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea and one no one else has copied.

Other than the fact that the UK economy has benefitted from this freedom with EU migrants making a greater positive contribution that non-EU migrants

How stupid is that??

Jamba- the recent London Mayoral campaign by Goldsmith was a poisonous, vicious Islamiphobic campaign not really seen as overtly in Britain before. So, yes it was ‘off the charts’, that’s exactly why the Tory leadership were so critical afterwards.

clodhopper – Member
…And aren’t you now somewhat embarrassed about mentioning the USA, Canada And Australia in the context of ‘uncontrolled immigration’?

Whilst I generally support free movement and immigration as a benefit, the original inhabitants of those countries may have an alter-native view. 🙂

Australian immigration policy – a shining example:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/10/explainer-how-to-read-and-interpret-the-nauru-files

Cameron’s greatest achievement?
Making me, an able bodied and formerly apolitical person become an activist for DPAC and Black Triangle.
I’ll live to see CaMoron, IDS, McVile Patel and Crabb tried for corporate manslaughter

DrJ that’s not immigration policy is it ? That’s trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades.

ulysee, strong words representing strong feelings I am sure. However, what is the issue and how can politicans be sued for something companies have done ?

DrJ that’s not immigration policy is it ? That’s trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades.

Oh, I see.

Thanks for explaining. Or maybe I mean thanks or jamsplaining.

Legal and illegal immigration are both parts of the whole immigration issue, you can’t say it is successful when one of them is clearly failing big time.

Two totally seperate things imo. If you followed your own logic chris the EU’s mmigration policy would be a total failure in your eyes.

On Libya a piece in the Independent Today on why the UN approved intervention was essential and how it saved many lives.

Independent

jambalaya – Member
DrJ that’s not immigration policy is it ? That’s trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades…

Strangely it wasn’t a major problem until Australia was involved in an Asian war, and in the aftermath locals who had been on “our” side sought sanctuary with us.

Maybe one way to reduce illegal immigration is to stop fighting wars in other people’s countries.

Perhaps if the bombs were loaded with dollar notes instead of explosives, it would keep the people there, and may even be cheaper. 🙂

Illegal immigration by definition can never be a success. So the US and Australia are failing like everyone else on their immigration policies.

Today on why the UN approved intervention was essential and how it saved many lives.

Missing the point entirely!
Cameron (Hague & Fox also) were criticised by the Defence, Select Committee, The Head of The Army and Obama, not for their intervention but for the lack of any follow up plan and for ‘becoming distracted’ (self harming referendum anyone?) .

That’s what cost lives, helped turn Libya into a failed state, gifted IS a huge haul of weapons and willing fighters, even the group that planned the Bataclan attack were founded in Libya

So we’re in agreement there have been actual deaths of unemployed, Disabled and homeless people due to the actions and policies of a department of UK Gov PLC using a failed form of benefit denial tick box questionnaire designed by American insurance company Unum who were taken to court in the US and lost their case, for health insurance denial using the same system?