Cycle lane etiquette – new driver question

ah I see what you are worried about. But I can confirm the license is transferable between modes of transport. You can even use it on foot to avoid standing in dog shit.

🙄

Yes, y’see, the door zone isn’t quite such an issue in a car, because:

a) people tend to see cars on road. They are quite large and tend to be what folk are looking for. Whereas people are often completely blind to bikes (SMIDSY).

b) to be fair, bikes passing that close will likely be in the blindspot of the car anyway.

c) if you did get doored in a car it would just scratch your paintwork, not potentially kill you.

Perhaps you should save your condescending advice for something you’ve actually done?

I invented “look and see” when I was just 7 years old and have applied the technique to many forms of transport over the years (including bikes). I can vouch for the systems 100% guaranteed success over a period nearing 40 years.

By way of clarification – I am not expecting the door opener to see me and behave accordingly – hence I “Look” and “See” what they are doing and then do something other than plough on at the same speed into the door. This could be as simple of just slowing down or stopping, but use your imagination and see what YOU can do instead of driving into a metal and glass object.

By all means use a bit of common sense when you’re on a bike.

But apply that common sense to your driving too and don’t expect anyone else to put themselves into a potentially dangerous situation.

By all means use a bit of common sense when you’re on a bike.

😯

gwj72 great idea that ‘look and see’ but maybe you could clarify a couple of points.

How does this work when

– cars have windows covered in dew
– cars have windows covered in frost
– cars have tinted windows
– its dark
– there’s a van parked

I do hope SmartArse Technologies have patented the ‘lookandsee’ idea but that alone doesn’t work for me.

gwj72 – Member
I invented “look and see” when I was just 7 years old and have applied the technique to many forms of transport over the years (including bikes). I can vouch for the systems 100% guaranteed success over a period nearing 40 years.

By way of clarification – I am not expecting the door opener to see me and behave accordingly – hence I “Look” and “See” what they are doing and then do something other than plough on at the same speed into the door. This could be as simple of just slowing down or stopping, but use your imagination and see what YOU can do instead of driving into a metal and glass object.

Ix-nay on the condescension-ay there, Chet.

You could ride out of the door zone and then cars with wide rear pillars that hide rear passengers from view, cars with tinted windows, vans with blocked out windows et al aren’t a problem.

Plus I prefer to look where I’m going rather than into every parked car I pass.

You’re right. People killed by doorings, like the guy in irc’s link, or this one[/url], or this one, were clearly just not “looking and seeing”. 🙄

They should just have “slowed down or stopped”, because luckily you always get tons of warning that a door is about to open and all bikes can stop instantly, from any speed, without causing any trouble for people approaching from behind 🙄

The fact that pretty much any bicycle training will mention staying out of the door zone (Bikability Level 2 I believe) is purely because cyclists like to ride around with their eyes shut. 🙄

use your imagination and see what YOU can do instead of driving into a metal and glass object.

Hmmm… I know.. why don’t I STAY OUT OF THE DOOR ZONE? Would that work? 🙄

I’d just like to add 🙄

This is why they need to make bikeability part of the driving test.

How must of the frustration and anger felt by motorists towards cyclists is just because they don’t understand stuff like this?

This is why they need to make bikeability part of the driving test.

How must of the frustration and anger felt by motorists towards cyclists is just because they don’t understand stuff like this?

The problem is the sheer variety in skills/riding styles that you encounter on the road.

When I was taking lessons my instructor continually told me to assume every cyclist was a “moron” (i.e. they will act in the opposite way you would expect them too), since I was the one driving the big lump of metal who could do the damage. His view was just to assume they were idiots (his intentions were meant well, in that it was up to the driver to keep the cyclist safe).

As a cyclist, I used to take issue with this, arguing that I often considered a lot of drivers to be the morons, and as a cyclist on a road you often had to be the one with the sharper road skills. Also, most drivers don’t understand how cyclists have to maneouvre (including myself, considering i started this thread!), so how can they assume anything?

In all honesty, there were far more muppet cyclists (hoods up, no lights, swerving in and out) than there were “proper” cyclists on the road., so I can see why some drivers just assume the worst.

That said, I’m still astounded at some of the driving I see on a daily basis. Some people don’t know how to drive safely on an open road, never mind a busy one with pedestrians and cyclists around.

It’s a no win situation, every good driver will encounter a moron cyclist, and every good cyclist will encounter a moron driver.

NOBODY!! and I mean NOBODY should die just because they didn’t have “look and see” technology with them that day. That’s why I have made it license free and I encourage you to help with distribution of this life saver.

I drive and ride in a manner I believe keeps me safe, which includes using my apparently unique super power to judge whether a car is about to be vacated or not. The reason I do this is because I am well aware of the risk and realize that no amount of talking shite on a cyclist forum will affect car drivers behavior.

So just ignoring the issues that people have raised and repeating the same stuff? Chapeau.

Your system has failings, see above.

I’m not ignoring any issues, I just don’t feel compelled to answer any. Are you the spanish inquisition or something?

My system has worked flawlessly for years whereas you live in a world where people need to be taught how to ride bikes and they’re still being slaughtered like dogs in the street.

Ride how you want though. I don’t care if you live or die 🙂

My system has worked flawlessly for years

I think you are confusing accepting a very low risk with eliminating it. I see plenty cyclists in the doorzone. Only a handful of cyclists are killed doorings each year. So the risk of being doored is obviously very low. Cyclists can ride in the doorzone for years without checking each car and still not get hit. As you say many potential doorings can be anticipated – exhaust smoke, lights going on or off etc. Not all can though. I prefer to eliminate that risk. If you choose to accept it – your choice – but it doesn’t mean you aren’t taking an avoidable risk..

My system has worked flawlessly for years

“I’ve ridden for years completely ignoring this risk and I haven’t been killed yet so it must be entirely safe and other people killed or injured this way must have been doing something wrong. Granted I was in a car for most of that ‘riding’.”

FTFY.

Unless you really do have superpowers it is not always possible to assess if a car door is about to open or not. The fact you haven’t been doored yet, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to people just like you, who are employing your “system”.

If you think you are avoiding risk by putting your bike further into the road then you don’t understand risk at all. I’d call that transference at best.

It may well be safe at some points to avoid “dooring zones”. Other times it won’t be. Riding with your wits about you seems more sensible than riding round with some deluded sense of entitlement to me. YMMV.

Graham do the local kids bully you for cigarettes?

I don’t ignore the risk, I do the complete opposite and keep my eyes peeled. I also don’t have an issue with losing momentum if its the safer thing to do. And I’ve ridden more than enough miles, including commuting, to have formed an opinion. Not one you agree with, but that can’t be a rare occurrence.

Drivers can see you better the further out you are…

If you think you are avoiding risk by putting your bike further into the road then you don’t understand risk at all. I’d call that transference at best.

You reckon that riding outside the reach of a car door doesn’t avoid the risk of dooring? What do you reckon they’re going to do, pick their cars up and move them sideways in order to get you with the door?

If you think you are avoiding risk by putting your bike further into the road then you don’t understand risk at all. I’d call that transference at best.

No doubt, since you do “understand risk”, you have detailed comparative figures for this?

Perhaps comparing the number of cyclists injured by car doors, or while avoiding car doors, passengers and errant pedestrians, or being crushed against cars at the side of the road, versus the number hit from behind by a vehicle in an urban environment?

Yes?

It may well be safe at some points to avoid “dooring zones”. Other times it won’t be.

I suspect that is as close as we’ll get to an admission you’re wrong. So thankyou.

Riding with your wits about you seems more sensible than riding round with some deluded sense of entitlement to me.

Ahh there we go. Firstly, it’s not an either/or choice.
Secondly what exactly is “deluded” about wanting to ride safely?

aracer – you see, I am capable of assessing multiple risks all the same time. On my very own too!

I couldn’t be **** teaching you how to make a cup of tea, never mind the intricacies of risk management. But lets just say you are lowing one risk while raising another. Whether that is the best possible course of action will depend entirely on that situation at that time. So any babble on here about it is **** pointless conjecture.

I think he’s rattled.

ah Graham, still trolling a year on. Good on you, we all need a role in life 🙂

Comparative figures you want? So you think when faced with slowing down and playing safe or riding out into a busy road, I stop and weigh up numbers? Maybe reach for a spreadsheet on my mobile before deciding which way to go?

I think you’ll find more of a qualitative assessment would be the wise thing to do. But if you wish to stick doggedly to “the stats prove it” and “I’m allowed to so I will” then crack on and ride like that.

I think he’s rattled.

awww bless.

GrahamS – you seem to be accepting that the space given to the cyclist in the HC pic I posted is over the top?

I’ve been arguing that for years.

As for doorings, there are occasions where you can see, but if cars are parked nose to tail on a fast, busy, narrow road, no way am I relying on inspecting every car visually.

gwj72 – Member
So you think when faced with slowing down and playing safe or riding out into a busy road, I stop and weigh up numbers?

Who’s suggested ‘riding out into a busy road’?

ah Graham, still trolling a year on. Good on you, we all need a role in life

ROFL. You show up in the middle of an interesting discussion, spouting a bunch of patronising, condescending, insulting nonsense to try to get a rise out of people – and you think that I’M the troll? 😆

So you think when faced with slowing down and playing safe or riding out into a busy road, I stop and weigh up numbers?

Oooh a new option: slowing down. At what speed can you conduct a full survey of each car to ensure the doors aren’t going to be opened on you?

Or do you just ride at walking pace to ensure you can stop in time?

Doesn’t that speed differential with other traffic create any additional risks? Sounds like what us risk experts like to call “transference” y’know.

Ah sensible discourse:

GrahamS – you seem to be accepting that the space given to the cyclist in the HC pic I posted is over the top?
I’ve been arguing that for years.

Yeah I’d say it is generous. It’s what I try to give a cyclist, but not necessarily what I expect as a cyclist.

But I don’t think the space in my ropey photoshop effort was that much different to the HC image?

Interesting how gwj72’s post was about how pointless arguing about this was 😀

Graham – I’m pretty much with you on that (I don’t expect anyhing like that space as a cyclist but give more than I need as a driver), but others here (with whom I may have confused you) have I think taken the HC pic to mean one should be over the central line overtaking a cyclist, whic is utterly different.

Your deffo a bit rain man.

I’m not offering a set of prescribed options (like you) and you won’t be able to pin down my precise POV as I don’t care enough to tell you it. I’m not telling anyone to do anything. I am saying that for any given situation, the only thing that matters is your own observation and actions AT THAT TIME. Laws, rules, etiquette, forums posts, tablets of stone, statistics and other lies become irrelevant.

If I read that getting hit from behind was less statistically likely than being doored, would I then always avoid dooring zones? No, because only an idiot would. You look and see, you use your brain, you assess the risk (as only you can) and then you do the right thing. Any attempt at agreeing what is the right thing to do by a 3rd party on a web forum after or before the event is a complete waste of time.

So, and I hate to do this, I am going to have to start charging for “Look and See” licenses from now on. I will still supply a book of “pre-determined actions to take when in danger” for those who can’t afford the license fee though. I’m a fair man.

gwj72, what price for “acting like a bell end” activity? 8)

gwj72, what price for “acting like a bell end” activity?

I give discounts for group bookings 😉

Agree with what you’re saying about overtaking space, I don’t expect people to cross the white line but if they leave a good amount of room they’ll get a thanks.

I think your scale is a bit off in that photo though Graham.

I’m not offering a set of prescribed options (like you)… I’m not telling anyone to do anything.

And neither am I.
I’m discussing different options and strategies for keeping us safe on the road.

Your deffo a bit rain man.

And for someone with amazing superpowers of perception and observation, you don’t seem to have noticed everyone on this thread telling you to stop being such a condescending arse.

Play nice.

others here (with whom I may have confused you) have I think taken the HC pic to mean one should be over the central line overtaking a cyclist, whic is utterly different.

Yeah, it is a terribly vague photo and text. Personally I think it should be a lot more prescriptive about the amount of room to give. Some countries have minimal passing distances specified in law, which is very handy when it comes to prosecuting dangerous drivers.

FWIW I think the intent of the photo is to show a reasonable passing distance, not to insist you have to cross the central line. On some roads that passing distance will means you have to cross the line, on others (like the OPs) it is wide enough that you can potentially stay in the same lane.

I couldn’t be **** teaching you how to make a cup of tea, never mind the intricacies of risk management.

How about your take on English comprehension, given that the point you were replying to about avoiding risk was only referring to avoiding the risk of dooring?

I know plenty about risk though, thanks.

others here (with whom I may have confused you) have I think taken the HC pic to mean one should be over the central line overtaking a cyclist, whic is utterly different.

Have they? Some of the “cyclists get in the way of traffic” advocates do sometimes seem to suggest that’s the opinion of others as some sort of strawman, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it expressed directly. Personally I support that pic being in the HC as it’s an easy one to bring out when people think giving a cyclist 1ft of space is plenty, but I agree it’s an ideal (or maybe even just an extreme counterpoint), and I certainly don’t always give that much room to cyclists when driving, though I will if I can.

In your ropey photoshopped image the cyclist is still far too close to the parked cars – 2 effects. One – a door opening will hit him, two if the car cuts in on him he has nowhere to go.

No wonder you think segregating cyclists is a good thing – you think riding in a dangerous manner is acceptable.

Please – get some training. Try to learn and understand why certain road positioning is always safer.

On some roads that passing distance will means you have to cross the line, on others (like the OPs) it is wide enough that you can potentially stay in the same lane.

Nope – if the cyclist is a safe distance away from the parked car and the overtaking car a safe distance from the cyclist they will have to go over the white line significantly. Half a meter from the parked car is not safe, one meter between the car and the bike is not safe

When you’re this superior and in such humble company, condescension is inevitable I’m afraid. It’s best to be inspired rather than dwell on it too much.

Actually you’re discussing YOUR options and strategies for keeping safe on the road. As an alternative to your options (bound within what you can / can’t do by law / quality of cycle paths / assumption that all drivers obey the law / statistics), I am offering (for a small price) the opportunity for cyclists to ignore forum based bullshit and deal with the actual incident in real time using their own eyes and brain.

It is a bit cowardly I admit. As I am leaving it up to the cyclist in question to decide the best thing to do, I can’t be accused of giving bad advice. Whereas if a cyclist rides into the road to avoid glass and random swinging doors – their blood will be on your hands 🙂