Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

If I could risk sticking my head back in here for a minute before Junkyard irritates me off again

I put in no effort to achieve this and i dont troll you.

Nice explanation and not unreasaonable
FWIW I agree that eastern religions/philosophies are far more useful in life and from my spiritual journey of youth only the eastern ones remain and are practised

To be clear I dont believe but much of Buddhism is useful for life IMHO

Junkyard – Member
I put in no effort to achieve this and i dont troll you.

It’s that constant inward outward drawing of breath that’s doing it.. 😉

Genuine laugh for that one 😆

Good point well made igrf.

I think the fact that some aspect of the bible was incorrect meant that other aspects could be questioned and its façade of being completely true was lost. This was the great danger
I think they genuinely thought it was heresy to question the biblical account.

Well some people did, some didn’t. There was quite a bit of variation in how people interpreted the bible back then, just as there is now. Some people managed to get away with it, some didn’t.

Only on matters of morals and faith is the pope infallible – that is quite a broad church

nearly, it is this but only when he defines doctrine, ex cathedra is the term sought. And even then canon law requires that it has to be manifestly demonstrated. This was last invoked in 1950, referring to the assumption of the virgin Mary, and then 100 years previous to that, regarding the immaculate conception, and this was before papal infallibility was defined at the first Vatican Council.

I gave up at this point

Shame; the conclusion is absolutely hilarious.

There’s a lot of tosh on this thread.

Which you’ll be correcting shortly no-doubt. Or was that your contribution?

In fact, there are five proofs!

1. cause
2. design
3. morality
4. resurrection
5. experience

Would it be interesting to take each proof in turn?

Oh dear, you were being serious. 😐

I don’t think you understand the concept of ‘proof’. I saw no ‘proof’ in that link. I’m probably not very bright, perhaps you could spell in out for me?

Bimbler, I’ve just found evidence for God, where is she?

OK, about the 5 ‘proofs’ of God (not sure which God, but anyway)

1. No proof. The fact that something does not seem logical to our current thinking, and the fact that something has the tiniest of probabilities, does NOT mean that thing can not have happened.

2. What proof? The writer makes no sense.

3. Each of us are NOT born with an innate sense of morality. Suggest the author does some research of child behavior.

4. Even if a bloke called Jesus existed, so what, it proves nothing about any gods.

5. One person unrepeatable experience does NOT make proof.

Really. And I’m just your average uneducated chump in the street, If I can shred that ‘proof’ imagine what someone with a GVNQ or two could do.

Odin vs Jesus

Again! again! again! nothing like a bit of subjectivity to get stw babbling on. See Painting thread. Some really bonkers opinions on there IMHO. Each to there own.

religious fundamentalists regardless of denomination are mentally ill, put them in a big padded warehouse somewhere so they can have conversations with their imaginary friends without embarrassing themselves.

miketually – Member

Would it be interesting to take each proof in turn?

I guess it would- because just saying something is proof is easy, backing it up in this case is impossible. So fill yer boots.

That’s not Odin, it’s his lad.

Always seem to come across these threads when its too late and they’re fizzling out…

Haven’t had time to read every post so forgive me if someone has posted something along the same lines.

If someone asked you to prove that your wife/partner loved you, you could tell them of a many instances examples where they have said/done something loving towards you. If they said that’s not enough proof, you could invite them to your home to live with you for a few days, and see for themselves the love you share, but still, they could, and quite rightly, say that’s not proof. It could after all be an act, all in your heads etc, at which point you’d probably feel pretty hurt and give up. You know your partner loves you, but maybe you can never prove it to anyone else.

In the same way I could invite you to my home, my wife and I could tell you all our experiences of God in our own lives and in the lives of people we know, we could take you to our church and show you many people who’s lives have been transformed since coming to know God. I think you would have a better idea of what we were talking about, and how deeply our lives are effected by our God, but still, as in the above example, for some people that wouldn’t be enough proof, and that honestly does make me sad, and makes me feel a bit like you would in the above example.

I could take you round to my house and show you my partner exists, though.

EDIT – sorry, that was a bit harsh. “Can you prove love” isn’t a bad analogy really.

Oh dear, you were being serious.

I probably wasn’t. Have you not seen my other contributions to this thread? 🙂

I don’t think you understand the concept of ‘proof’. I saw no ‘proof’ in that link. I’m probably not very bright, perhaps you could spell in out for me?

I found those two (hilarious) sites by Googling for “proof of God”, but I have seen the first three of those five ‘proofs’ used in all seriousness by Frank Turek in a debate against Christopher Hitchens, on YouTube.

I probably wasn’t.

Oh shit, sorry! (eek how small do I feel) 😳

I have seen the first three of those five ‘proofs’ used in all seriousness by Frank Turek in a debate against Christopher Hitchens

Oooh, poor guy. Sad really.

On the other hand

Re: “love,” above. And indeed, love above.

You can’t really prove ‘love’, but you can demonstrate it. Going out of your way for someone, performing selfless acts, providing and caring for them, spending time with them and enjoying their company, looking deep into their smiling eyes… None of this is “proof” of anything in scientific terms, but it demonstrates that it probably is the case.

What you’ve just described, I think, is two-fold. What the church has done for you is a tangible thing, sense of community etc, Ro5ey was kind enough to share all this earlier. But that’s not really much to do with ‘god’ I don’t think, that’s people, it’s not much different conceptually to me hanging out with mates at the pub.

The second is how you’ve been “affected” by god; the problem here is it’s entirely emotive on your part. You might ‘feel god’s love,’ but he’s not brought you breakfast in bed or given up his Saturday night with the Archangels to stay in watching weepy movies with you, so it’s a lot more difficult to demonstrate. Exchanging mutual “love” with something that is, for all practical purposes, not there is a tricky concept to deal with. “God loves me!” How do you know? “I just know, I can feel it.” Could be indigestion for all I know.

Sorry if that still sounds a bit argue-y, I’m just trying to explain why perhaps we have difficulties with it.

“Can you prove love” isn’t a bad analogy really. You can’t really prove it, but you can demonstrate it.

You can’t hurry love…

We could monitor hormone levels and electrical signals in mine and my wife’s brains/bodies, or use examples of our behaviour, etc.

God seems reluctant to get into an MRI scanner.

Also, I don’t try to use my wife’s love for me to dictate how others should live or behave.

good stuff Cougar

I don’t know for sure that my wife loves me. She says she does and I believe her, because I want to, because I love her. Have a word with some of the divorcees on here. I am aware of the possibility that she’s been lying to me the whole time.

If God is a woman, then yes she probably has (been lying to you).

Sexist.

Soon lesbians will be able to wonder if their wife loves them: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/25/gay-marriage-bill-equal-treatment – great news.

I also wonder if this is going to call my sister’s bluff, as she has said she won’t get civil-partnership-married until it’s a full-and-equal marriage… 🙂

Love between two people and the love of an individual for their God are not in dispute are they? The debate has been loosely about the creationist clap-trap that tries to pose for science and the generally negative effect organised religions have when they become more about their own self importance and power than about love, peace and all that jazz.

I imagine it must be pretty comforting at times to truly believe in God, actually, if not somewhat confusing if you ever think about why.

Cougar, some would say that the fact that Christians focus their time/love towards others, in helping those in need is indeed ‘evidence’ that something supernatural has happened to them, (especially if you knew them before and saw the change for yourself). But it depends what you consider evidence. For me, when I made my decision, I was won over by ‘evidence’ but you might be looking for a different kind of evidence to me.

I once spoke to a doctor of micro-biology that I know (who’s a Christian) about evolution. He went into detail about how DNA is ‘written’ in proteins that only exist when there is already life… I must admit this isn’t my subject and I’m out of my depth discussing it (as an electrical engineer myself) but my friend said that for him,despite knowing what he does, the greatest evidence wasn’t scientific, but the fact that the first disciples were willing to die for their faith. They knew Jesus very well and had followed him everywhere, they saw it all first hand, and they were willing to die horrible deaths as ‘heretics’ for what they taught. For my friend, this ‘evidence’ was enough for him.

Molgrips, your point about choosing to believe your wife loves you, would it then be right to say that unless you chose to believe that she loves you, you wouldn’t be able to experience that love? you chose to accept the ‘evidence’ which again might not be considered to be ‘true’ scientific evidence that many in this thread are asking for, but still, it was plenty enough evidence for you to believe 🙂

Incidently 1 John 4:8 says “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love”

Will the thread end tonight? I keep thinking I won’t look but keep getting drawn back in.

the fact that the first disciples were willing to die for their faith. They knew Jesus very well and had followed him everywhere, they saw it all first hand, and they were willing to die horrible deaths as ‘heretics’ taught. For my friend, this ‘evidence’ was enough for him.

Are the first disciples the only people who have died for their faith? Lots of cults end in mass suicides, and people have been willing to die for their country, friends or other non-religious beliefs.

Miketually, Yes, many have died for good causes, but would it be safe to say that unless you fully believe in something, you wouldn’t me willing to die for it? my point is that those disciples must have been fully convinced by what they saw, again, whats evidence to one person may not be evidence enough to another, to my friend , it is enough.

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again.

There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again

“Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around”
? Penn Jillette

Miketually, Yes, many have died for good causes, but would it be safe to say that unless you fully believe in something, you wouldn’t me willing to die for it? my point is that those disciples must have been fully convinced by what they saw, again, whats evidence to one person may not be evidence enough to another, to my friend , it is enough.

But isn’t this going back to the circular argument – in the bible the gospels say that the disciples died for their beliefs. Therefore the bible is true. I’m still not sure the disciples actually existed.

?

There are things I guess most of us would be willing to die for – look at the love parents show their children. I wouldn’t know what I would be willing to die for – possibly another.

“If every trace of any single religion were wiped out”

But if you believe in God, you can believe that God would never allow that to happen.

I can’t believe God allowed this thread to happen

Adam, the death of the first disciples isn’t even covered in the bible except Stephen in Acts 7(there may possibly be more I’m forgetting) but they are documented in other historical texts