and yes i have been affected by this so called war on terror as much as you…maybe not in Gaza…but somewhere similar
8 years ago my cousin’s son went to Afghanistan on a humanitarian mission with a local charity group…he never returned. the group got caught up in the crossfire between the allied forces and the local Taliban guerillas. he along with 2 others in the group were killed while they were distributing clothes, medical supplies and food. the US/UK air strikes obliterated the area and their bodies were never found. they never made the headlines as they werent part of the larger charity organisations operating in the area but none the less had been given permission by the relevant authorities to carry out their humanitarian tasks.
my cousin and his family have had to live with the fact that they never got any answers from the authorities over this or the fact that they will never get to bury their son. looking at his twin brother always breaks their heart knowing that he is half of the son that never returned home.
this could be applied to many people affected by these conflicts, but you seem to support Israel’s contribution to this

Guardian just published a poll which said that 52% of the respondents thought Israels response in Gaza was not proportionate. So a left leaning paper has a poll which is pretty evenly split.

That’s an unsurprisingly disingenuous and self serving interpretation of that poll result.

you mean he did not present it like this

It found that 19% thought Israel had acted proportionately

Wow surprising thathe took such a selective view of the facstand then spun them in a pro israel way [ if being less than the majority is positive]

He did not mention I

According to the poll, 41% of voters say their opinion of Israel has worsened during the recent conflict.

You mean when he said it was a left leaning paper he ignored

CM Research interviewed a random sample of 1,002 adults aged 18+ on 8-10 August 2014. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

I am stunned to see how fast and loose he has been with reality….he normally has such as strong and impartial grip on it and never spins it in a pro israel manner.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/uk-voters-israel-disproportionate-gaza-poll

gobuchul – Member

Do people on here really think that the UN has a totally neutral viewpoint?

The last thing I want is a “totally neutral” UN which sits on the fence while atrocities are being committed.

It has an indisputable responsibility to condemn atrocities, illegal acts of aggression, and other gross violations of international law.

And I find it staggering quite frankly that anyone should even ask the question.

Unless of course they support atrocities, illegal acts of aggression, and other gross violations of international law, and want to somehow discredit the UN.

That doesn’t of course mean that the UN is always right, but it does mean that it has every right to act within its remit.

…or you could say that 81% of the British public did not think the Israeli response had been proportionate. That statement would be correct, albeit willfully misleading.

I sat 10 feet from a colleague who was on PanAm 103
I have crawled around on my hands and knees looking for bombs under my car each morning when visiting friends in the military at their accommodation
Have taken a ferry back to the UK just a couple of days before a young soldier was shot dead in his car at the check-in
Had colleagues whose offices where destroyed by the Aldwych bomb
Lived and worked in London for 20 years during the IRA bombing campaigns and seen first hand the necessary security measures
Had close friends who lost people on 9/11
Walked past police cordon outside Aldywich East tube the morning of 7/7

So I am anti-terrorist

I hope you received a medal for your steadfast and resolute determination to confront terrorism where ever you encountered it.

I bet you can tell the people of Gaza a thing or two about what it’s like to live in constant terror of being bombed.

What was the hardest …….. I’m reckoning living and working in London for 20 years during the IRA bombing campaigns ?

Against terrorism but in favour of using airstrikes and weapons of mass effect in built up areas knowing that it will cause civilian casualties . Against terrorism but think it is OK to kill anyone of a particular nationality because you don’t like the government some of them voted for . Against terrorism but support the IDF who sent kill squads out to murder PA policemen who were manning anti terrorist checkpoints as a revenge because some terrorists had got through the check points. Are you sure you are anti terrorist or is it that you are an ardent supporter of a terrorist state?

jambalaya – Member
Whereas the notion of historic Israel is…?

Not particularly relevant.[/quote]
Of course not. How foolish of me.

I am very strongly anti-terrorist.

How do you feel about the terrorist founders of Israel then?

Well, for a start the 1948 generation of leaders are all dead – so whilst what they did and the way they did it was wrong, much like the leaders of the American revolution I don’t have any particularly strong feelings about them.

Its also perfectly possible for terrorists to abandon violence and go on to become great statesmen, much as I may dislike Adams and McGuinness, they led Ireland into peace through the abandonment of violence, the same goes to a large extent for Mandela, in the end for the ANC the way forward into peace also involved the abandonment of violence and a willingness to live in peace with their former oppressors.

good article here

those they dont kill they traumatise

Gaza’s children: ‘Israel is creating a new generation of enemies’
Najia Warshagha, age nine, is a veteran of three conflicts in Gaza. She cannot sleep properly and is always terrified

So I am anti-terrorist

In 1983, aged 7, I was ten minutes away from walking into Harrods when it was blown up by the IRA.

Now, where do I collect my medal* for unswerving pomposity in the face of the enemy? 🙄

*I’ll check – but neither my dad (British Army medic, early 70s, NI) nor my grandfather (Major Noteeth RA, survived Burma… and then deployed to Palestine) seem to have been awarded one. I’ll start a petition.

the same goes to a large extent for Mandela, in the end for the ANC the way forward into peace also involved the abandonment of violence and a willingness to live in peace with their former oppressors.

😆

I realise you’re smarting after having your arse handed to you on a plate after your statements about Mandela, but even the likes of you must realise that apartheid in South Africa didn’t end because the ANC decided to pursue peaceful means only.

a willingness to live in peace

Ninfan & DD, up a tree, K.I.S.S.I.N.G.

I’m crying here.

Nelson Mandela promised to behave himself and the Apartheid regime quickly collapsed, it simply couldn’t cope with good well behaved black people.

And to be fair Nelson Mandela never did reoffend.

Given the strong emotions this thread has aroused, I’d like to be the voice of sanity and say: I really don’t give a toss what happens in the Middle East.

I’d like to be the voice of sanity and say: I really don’t give a toss what happens in the Middle East.

Any self-absorbed psychopath can say that so I’m not sure it necessarily represents the “voice of sanity”.

must realise that apartheid in South Africa didn’t end because the ANC decided to pursue peaceful means only.

No, but at the same time it couldn’t and wouldn’t have ended until they did!

Another key factor of course being the wholesale collapse of international communism.

Why don’t they offer the Israelis the ISIS controlled are of Iraq on condition that they “sort it out”

seems like a win-win to me.

@ jambalaya
Your silence is deafening….no doubt you’re busy digging up more ridiculous zionist propaganda to dig yourself further into your hole….at this rate you’ll be able to build your own tunnel

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKfV8wCLjlE[/video]

Democratic and Republican Senators have called for an investigation into the UN, in particular whether they where complicit in handing weapons found in 3 of their premises back to Hamas. Also as the major funder of the UN they seek reforms to the UN’s political structure and processes.

Given UNRWA’s ties to terrorism in the past, U.S. taxpayers deserve immediate answers and full transparency regarding their intentions and actions. The State Department must make clear to the U.N. that it needs to take all necessary steps to prevent Hamas from using taxpayer-funded property to launch terror attacks against our allies.
In the course of your investigation, we ask you to examine the fate of these rockets, what measures the U.N. took to secure UNRWA property, and how the U.S. intends to work with the U.N. to make sure incidents like these are never repeated.
The United States taxpayers deserve to know if UNRWA is fulfilling its mission or taking sides in this tragic conflict.

Senators call for investigation into the UN

Personally I think the UN had no choice in Gaza. The “ties to terrorism” accusation is that they hired Hamas members to senior workers committees but as Hamas forms the Gazan government I don’t think the UN has any choice if it wants to operate there. If you are in Gaza you have to accept the government is run by an organisation designated as terrorists by the EU and by the US. The UN are unable to secure their property against Hamas, a UN worker isn’t going to stop an armed militant if they are told to “get lost”. To have tried to withhold the weapons found in the midst of the current fighting they would certainly have been killed by Hamas.

I’ll repeat/revise the question jambalaya, seeing as (as usual) you are ignoring things that show up how ludicrously one-eyed you are on this issue.

Don’t you feel there’s a conflict between your ‘strongly anti-terrorist stance’, and your staunch support for a country where terrorism played a key part in its foundation?

Have taken a ferry back to the UK just a couple of days before a young soldier was shot dead in his car at the check-in

you could teach those whiny Yazidis something about resilience, couldn’t you?

What GRUM said

Refusing to answer the question does not hide the fact you are massive hypocrite.
How tragic you know your stance is contradictory and you just choose to ignore the complete inconsistency in your view. their is no “debate” here is there as you know dont you and you just ignore

Don’t you feel there’s a conflict between your ‘strongly anti-terrorist stance’, and your staunch support for a country where terrorism played a key part in its foundation?

Tragic

@gonzy Been busy with work. Sorry if my facts and interpretations don’t suit your agenda. If you recall it was you who said the Jews could have avoided the Holocaust if they had “just moved somewhere else”, you laid your cards on the table pretty clearly with that.

There have been a few articles quoting Islamic forum posts linking ISIS into Gaza, calling for assistance and claiming credit for some rocket attacks. Gonzy, Syria and ISIS is highly relevant to Gaza, its all the Middle East and one Middle East thread is sufficient. I can understand you desire to separate ISIS from Gaza and Hamas as any linkage would be terminal for the Hamas propoganda war.

Israel is the sovereign state, Hamas the organisation classified as terrorists by the EU and US.

I will be away from the computer till next week. In that time I imagine many 1000’s of people will be killed in the ongoing conflicts in Syria and Iraq. I read a piece yesterday of a Palestinian rebel held town in Syria which is surrounded by government forces, but we don’t see nightly tv pictures from there. Having fought against the government Palestinians are trying to flee but are being refused entry into Jordan. The UN Human Rights watch just posted a report into the deaths of 1,150 Egyptians killed they say deliberately by the government during a protest. Its a bit more complicated when it’s Arab vs Arab, Muslim vs Muslim and it is revealing to see the different reactions to related situations by those here, very strong views on the Israel vs Hamas situation but silence on the far more deadly conflicts elsewhere.

UN HRW

Oh look, yet more whataboutery and not answering the question. Pathetic.

Quote from the UN report

In Rab’a Square, Egyptian security forces carried out one of the world’s largest killings of demonstrators in a single day in recent history,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “This wasn’t merely a case of excessive force or poor training. It was a violent crackdown planned at the highest levels of the Egyptian government. Many of the same officials are still in power in Egypt, and have a lot to answer for.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUtFM9L6ago#t=97[/video]

Oh look, yet more whataboutery and not answering the question

@grum I have asked many questions and raised many points which have gone unaswered. It seems to be the norm. The Middle East, terrorism and jihadist extremists is all one topic.

Hamas ability to wage terror has been deeply damaged. I hope we will see the period of quiet Israel wished for. In the meantime 1000’s, probably 10’s of thousands of Arabs will die as a result of sectarian infighting

I have asked many questions and raised many points which have gone unaswered.

Can you just link us to a few questions you asked about the situation in Gaza that have gone unanswered?*

*William Hill are giving me evens on you not answering this one either.

I hope we will see the period of quiet Israel wished for. In the meantime 1000’s, probably 10’s of thousands of Arabs will die as a result of sectarian infighting

More importantly no jews will and that is the main thing 🙄

Amusing DD but we all know why he wont answer and we all know [ clearly even you] he is a zionist hypocrite

If you recall it was you who said the Jews could have avoided the Holocaust if they had “just moved somewhere else”, you laid your cards on the table pretty clearly with that.

when did i say that?
i dont recall ever stating anything along those lines nor have i insinuated that…so i’d very much like for you to show me the evidence to back up your accusation.

when did i say that?

Ooooh…another awkward question!

Latest from BetFred is 5/3 against you getting an answer to that.

Israel is the sovereign state, Hamas the organisation classified as terrorists by the EU and US

What’s the status of Palestine?

What’s the status of Palestine?

Odds have gone up again. FFS people, no more questions! There have already been three or four today. 😐

@grum I have asked many questions and raised many points which have gone unaswered. It seems to be the norm.

Have you asked any relevant questions and raised any relevant points that have gone unanswered? Pretty sure you haven’t.

Oh well – I guess we can take this as an admission of being a massive hypocrite, and actually only ‘very strongly anti-terrorist’ when we’re talking about Muslims.

a group of European Jews who were driven out of their homelands in the most horrific manner are given a piece of land in the middle east surrounded by Arab countries.
the Arab countries were not happy about this and neither was the country the land was taken from to accommodate them. a fight then ensues where these “new settlers” defeat the Arabs countries to establish their status in the region and then subsequently proceed to illegally grab more land from their “host” country while treating them worse than animals and driving them to the point of near extinction because they think its their right to do so…some people never learn.

That sentence should start with “Arabs attempted to force out a group of middle-eastern Jews in the most horrific manner, starting with the 1929 Hebron massacre, which led to the Jewish equivalent of global Jihad”.

Just saying….

There’s a lot of really abysmal history being talked on this thread.

Latest from BetFred is 5/3 against you getting an answer to that.

stick £10 down for me then 😉

+ 1

Can i stake a claim by either saying Balfour agreement or Theodor Herzl or ok you got me there my OT knowledge is weak who drove them out?