I think you will find it was the suicide bombings in Tel Aviv disco that really turned the Israeli people into thinking the Palestinians were monsters.

I was in Israel before and after these blasts and the change in attitude was frightening.

Where you in Palestine when zionist terrorists where bombing hotels ?

Perhaps that’s when people started thinking that all Israelis were monsters ?

I think you will find it was the suicide bombings in Tel Aviv disco that really turned the Israeli people into thinking the Palestinians were monsters.

I was in Israel before and after these blasts and the change in attitude was frightening.
@Pigace, yes this and more. Most Israel’s still avoid the buses. It was in Israel that we first saw suicide bombing used as a significant tactic. The Palestinians are kept in Gaza to keep the suicide bombers out of Israel.

To those here that suggest the average Israeli is being brainwashed or fed propoganda by the government is nonsense. The Israeli population is reacting to the very real threat posed by the terrorist government of Hamas. They are reacting to history which says the Palestinians are not to be trusted.

gonzy you are name calling him and saying he is doing it

he uses mockery to take the piss- ie dont make up quotes to prove points

He has a point

Please dont get personal and then claim he is doing it

I think there is a very good chance the school was indeed hit by an errant Hamas missile.

are you sure Jambalaya? the UNRWA seems pretty adament that it was the work of the IDF and they have the proof…
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEWmnAOJABE[/video]

The IDF and Iron Dome tracks the missiles fro launch, I read somewhere the IDF estimates 20% of the Hamas rockets crash soon after take off.

if they are able to track these Hamas rockets from launch, why are they not more accurate in their response? saying that the rocket was fired from the vicinity of say, a hospital is not accurate enough especially when their response is to flatten the hospital…that’s like saying the rocket was fired from Dudley town centre…so the Bullring got taken out

Hamas’s rocket supply is diminished, its attack tunnel network diminished.

if this is the case why is Israel still blowing up Gaza?

The Israeli population is reacting to the very real threat posed by the terrorist government of Hamas. They are reacting to history which says the Palestinians are not to be trusted.

Hamas was formed at around 1987…so what was the excuse before that?
Israel has illegally crossed the agreed 1947 stolen the land from the Palestinians and has driven the people either out of the country completely or into refugee camps along the borders…
what do you expect the Palestinians to do in response? give the Israeli people a huge pat on the back?!

They are reacting to history which says the Palestinians are not to be trusted.

This is very relevant, the Israelis took a huge step in unanimously withdrawing from gaza and forcing the settlers out. It was rewarded only by continued violence from the pals

Israel has illegally crossed the agreed 1947 stolen the land from the Palestinians

Hmm, you seem to have missed out the bit whereby the surrounding Arab nations invaded hell bent on driving them into the sea.

gonzy you are name calling him and saying he is doing it

he uses mockery to take the piss- ie dont make up quotes to prove points

He has a point

Please dont get personal and then claim he is doing it

fair enough.
konabunny – i apologise for my behaviour and comments. the red mist descended and i got carried away.

Hmm, you seem to have missed out the bit whereby the surrounding Arab nations invaded hell bent on driving them into the sea.

So they (the Israelis) had the right to take up arms and repel the invading Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians, how is stealing Palestinian land right up to today still justified?

no problem, gonzy. junkyard made the point I should have made better than I did so I apolgise for being a squabbler too.

This is very relevant, the Israelis took a huge step in unanimously withdrawing from gaza and forcing the settlers out. It was rewarded only by continued violence from the pals

that’s true as far as it goes but it’s not the whole story. Gaza as a sealed prison isn’t viable economically or politically. the withdrawal was a de-escalation step but not a solution – it was always going to fail without further steps. however the Palestinian political class accelerated that failure by failing to maintain political unity, and Hamas failed in basic governance and failing to drop the (totally worthless) position of not recognizing Israel.

It was rewarded only by continued violence from the pals

Gaza is considered to be still under Israeli occupation by the United Nations.

http://www.ochaopt.org/

And it is precisely because the UN considers Gaza to be under Israeli occupation that it demands that Israel complies with the obligation of an Occupying Power under international law.

STATEMENT BY PROF. RICHARD FALK, UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.

Furthermore the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in Occupied Territories points out that countries such as the US and the UK which help arm Israel are complicit in violations of international law :

The Israeli airstrikes today, and the catastrophic human toll that they caused, challenge those countries that have been and remain complicit, either directly or indirectly, in Israel’s violations of international law. That complicity includes those countries knowingly providing the military equipment including warplanes and missiles used in these illegal attacks, as well as those countries who have supported and participated in the siege of Gaza that itself has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.

That was almost six years ago. The only reason Israel is able to continue to flagrantly violate international law is because it has the protection of the US.

The Palestinians have a right under international law to violently resist occupation.

They have no reason, as the above quote suggests, to grateful to Israel for continuing to live under Israeli occupation.

That Einstein bloke was pretty clever

@ernie, the occupation thing is stretching a point. The Israeli’s withdrew from Gaza what 10 years ago ? The Palestinians are not trying to resist occupation they are trying to murder and kidnap to force negotiations on their terms, they are trying to wage an offensive campaign. Why don’t they try that with Egypt ? The Palestinians fought Assad in Syria and many 1000’s have been killed as a result. Jordan has refused entry to Palastinain refugees. There is a link here. The Palastinians want conflict not peace and all their neighbours realise this and want nothing to do with them.

There is no doubt relationships are strained between the UN and Israel. I can imagine the Israeli’s are pressing quite hard the point that weapons have been found in three UN buildings in Gaza. The UN casualty statistics way overstate civilian casualties, 75% of the dead are men almost all those the Israelis say are combatants. I have no doubt in a few years we will see revisions to those statistics and like in the past acknowledgement from Hamas that most of the dead where involved with the militia. UN presence on the ground has been an unmitigated disaster in Rwanda and Bosnia. It is no surprise the Israeli’s don’t trust them to do a decent job with their security.

The Palestinians need to connect the dots and realise they can never achieve Hamas’s aims. If Israel is ever seriously threatened there will 100,000+ very well equipped US soldiers on the ground there in a hurry. There could be a peace tomorrow if Hamas disarm.

So they (the Israelis) had the right to take up arms and repel the invading Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians, how is stealing Palestinian land right up to today still justified?

@Bazz Jordan fought a war with Israel over the West Bank, they said it was theirs not the Palestinians. Conflicts are generally simple in that if you fight and loose you often forfeit territory. That’s what happened between Israel and Egypt. If the Jordanians had won in the war against Israel the West Bank would be Jordanian and as I posted above there is no love between Jordan and Palestine. The Palestinians keep trying to attack Israel, Israels best defense is to keep the Palastinians in specific areas where they can be closely monitored and from which it is difficult for them to attack Israel. Hence Hamas spending huge amounts of money and at the cost of many lives building these attack tunnels. Just imagine how much better off the average Palestinian would be if they where not spending all this money on tunnels and rockets. The problem is the Hamas militants survive on this activity, this is their rationale, it’s their job. If there was peace they would have to do normal work for normal pay and not enjoy the status of a jihadist warrior which they have now.

to keep the Palastinians in specific areas where they can be closely monitored

Some of the stuff you say is quite chilling. 😐

the occupation thing is stretching a point. The Israeli’s withdrew from Gaza what 10 years ago ?

The withdrawal of permanent troops and settlers was not the end of occupation. Gaza was not and is not a state. It’s still an occupation when the occupier continues to control the territory. The withdrawal was always contingent on it being in Israel’s interest to do – as the ongoing war shows. Gaza is not a separate issue from the rest of Palestine, whatever the rest of Palestine turns out to be.

The UN keeps getting quoted as the final say on right and wrong.

Do people on here really think that the UN has a totally neutral viewpoint?

It’s a political organisation and is manipulated by it’s members for their own political goals.

the occupation thing is stretching a point

Can i see a m ap of the international agreed borders and a map of what the ground looks like
your posts are nothing but zionist propoganda/lies at odds with the facts.
they do not deserve a response.

Junkyard – lazarus
your posts are nothing but zionist propoganda/lies at odds with the facts.

‘I remember reading somewhere’ is surely a good enough citation, isn’t it?

How about continuing to quote unsupported stats from a bar graph?

well apart from that they are rubbish 😉

Hmm, you seem to have missed out the bit whereby the surrounding Arab nations invaded hell bent on driving them into the sea.

a group of European Jews who were driven out of their homelands in the most horrific manner are given a piece of land in the middle east surrounded by Arab countries.
the Arab countries were not happy about this and neither was the country the land was taken from to accommodate them. a fight then ensues where these “new settlers” defeat the Arabs countries to establish their status in the region and then subsequently proceed to illegally grab more land from their “host” country while treating them worse than animals and driving them to the point of near extinction because they think its their right to do so…some people never learn.

if they are able to track these Hamas rockets from launch, why are they not more accurate in their response? saying that the rocket was fired from the vicinity of say, a hospital is not accurate enough especially when their response is to flatten the hospital…that’s like saying the rocket was fired from Dudley town centre…so the Bullring got taken out

@gonzy the Israel’s are extremely accurate in their responce, I would say more accurate than anyone in history the US and UK included and certainly more accurate than Hamas. But that doesn’t mean they are faultless and navy or tank shelling isn’t as accurate. The Israelis killed three militants riding a motorcycle but the hit was directly outside a UN school, it wasn’t targetting the school. In a conflict situation if a gunner is following a target he is focusing on that target and not what the motorbike is driving past.

Israel keeps striking Gaza as Hamas keep firing missiles. Israel has repeatedly agreed to ceasefires and Hamas (or indeed possibly other rogue groups) have broken them. Hamas instigated this conflict via continual rocket fire, they don’t want it to end.

As @gobuchul says above the UN is a political organisation, it has agendas like any other. They keep reporting casualties as predominantly civilians when a number of news sources have called the numbers into question, BBC, New York Times etc.

@Lifer, lets just say you don’t agree with the IDF figure of 450 missiles fired from Gaza from Jan to June 2014. So what is the correct number ? It certainly isn’t zero is it or 10 or 20 or even 100. As I posted before I guaranty US military satellites track the missile launches too. It is an very inconvenient truth to the pro-Palestinian camp that Hamas has been trying to provoke a reaction from Israel for the past 6 months via incessant rocket attacks and building these attack tunnels.

Hamas instigated this conflict via continual rocket fire

oh i thought it was because Hamas kidnapped and murdered 3 Israeli boys…oh wait, they had nothing to do with that did they?

the Israel’s are extremely accurate in their responce

so those 4 boys on the beach WAS a direct hit?

The Israelis killed three militants riding a motorcycle

so from a great distance they can identify and track 3 men on a motorbike…but not 4 boys playing football?

the Israel’s are extremely accurate in their responce

So you accept they deliberately target UN safe sanctions , schools and hospitals then.

They keep reporting casualties as predominantly civilians

Only a rabid zionist would claim that majority of deaths are not as it is a view totally at odds with the facts

Hamas has not been trying to provoke a reaction they have been trying to get Israel to end the illegal blockade of their country. What country would not fire in these circumstances?
Imagine if the arabs did this to israel and israel started firing rockets at them ….i assume that would be provocative and they could then wipe them out:roll:

This is like defend the indefensible and your arguments are tortured, illogical, inconsistent and at times bereft of humanity or compassion.

Just out of interest what level of atrocity would Israel have to commit before you Zionists would condemn their actions?

They keep reporting casualties as predominantly civilians when a number of news sources have called the numbers into question, BBC, New York Times etc.

is this the same BBC that has been criticised by elements of the British public in its seemingly one-sided reporting?
the same BBC that, after Jeremy Bowen stated that during his time in Gaza saw no evidence suggesting that Hamas was using Palestinian civilians as human shields, allegedly withdrew him from the region?
the same BBC that failed to report on thousands protesting outside its Manchester Media City HQ?
the same BBC that failed to report on 100,000 people marching through London in demonstration to the conflict a few weeks ago?
the same BBC that failed to report on 150,000 people marching through London in demonstration to the conflict last weekend?

as for the other news agencies you mention….they haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory with their seemingly biased reporting either.

jambalaya – Member
As @gobuchul says above the UN is a political organisation, it has agendas like any other. They keep reporting casualties as predominantly civilians when a number of news sources have called the numbers into question, BBC, New York Times etc.

@Lifer, lets just say you don’t agree with the IDF figure of 450 missiles fired from Gaza from Jan to June 2014

Absolutely fantastic that you put these points together but can’t see the link…

And as I mentioned before I’d give the figures more credence if there was a breakdown with the bar chart. If Wikipedia can do it, why can’t the IDF?

Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel

Which lists 181 rockets, where/when they were fired, where they hit, casualties and who claimed responsibility. So again, why can’t the IDF provide this information for the 260 odd extra rockets that they report were fired?

So what is the correct number ? It certainly isn’t zero is it or 10 or 20 or even 100.

I’ll go with the 181 with citations on wiki.

As I posted before I guaranty US military satellites track the missile launches too.

You guarantee? So where are their figures?

Can i see a m ap of the international agreed borders and a map of what the ground looks like

Is this a good starting point?

I am sure jambzionista will be along shortly to explain why Hamas made them do this and it is all the fault of the victims who did something mean to israel whilst they were illegally doing all this.

” In a conflict situation if a gunner is following a target he is focusing on that target and not what the motorbike is driving past.” actually proper trained soldiers do focus on what else may be taken out by their fire.

Also slotting unarmed blokes on a motorbike on the off chance they may be baddies hardly counts as a hot contact which justifies ignoring ROE.

@gonzy the Israelis never used the kidnapping of the boys as a rational for the offensive against Hamas, it was always about rockets and attack tunnels. If you read my post I say that naval artillery is not as accurate. I am sure you appreciate that a person following a target is focused on that target. If Hams wasn’t firing rockets there would not be any shelling.

I read the demonstration was about 25,000 and as I said such a demonstration against government policy wouldn’t be possible in Gaza, you’d be murdered for speaking out against Hamas.

As for bias in the media we should ask ourselves why the much greater loss of life in Syria and Iraq doesn’t make the same headlines. The fact is Hamas is fighting a propoganda war and it care more about tv images than loss of life so it invites journalists in and put them in the hospital and controls what they see and what they say. Any journalist off message knows they will be killed. There was a piece written by an Italian who left and he felt his life was in danger, in 2009 Hamas killed an Italian journalist who had lived in Gaza for years for reporting the “wrong” story.

@Junkyard – read back for my analysis of the death toll. It is inconceivable to me that 75% of the casualties are men vs 14% are women is a co-incidence. The IDF reports that they have killed 1000 militants, that seems to me to match my calculation. Also read back regarding the different types of munitions used and the realities of ground fighting, just because a school or shelter was hit does not mean it was the original target and you well know that.

Civilians are killed in conflicts, sadly these days they form the majority of casualties in most conflicts. I think the numbers in Gaza are much lower than is usual,

@richc IMO the Israelis have not committed any atrocities in this conflict so there isn’t anything I can comment on. I see plenty of atrocities in Syria from both ISIS and from the government forces against Palestinians in the 170,000 casualties they have had there.

@Lifer – In my view 180 rockets is sufficient to warrant a retaliation from Israel. I think the mere existence of the tunnel network is sufficient. Just because the missiles haven’t killed anyone yet doesn’t mean firing them is insignificant. The US military are not going to publish their military intelligence are the ? I am sure they have the data, if you look at what Google now offer and the level of detail its easy to understand that the military would have much more detail and more frequent updates. The US intelligence services confirmed the rocket launch against the Malaysian plane very quickly.

I am sure jambzionista will be along shortly to explain why Hamas made them do this and it is all the fault of the victims who did something mean to israel whilst they were illegally doing all this.

I am doing my best to keep up

@slowdownman – the single biggest issue with your maps is the title “historic Palestine” – the Jordanians wouldn’t have agreed that map they believed the whole West Bank belonged to them, the notion of historic Palestine is quite meaningless, we could draw maps all over the world with various historic kingdoms on it. Next we have the large swathes of land towards the Egyptian border (its pretty much all un-inhabited desert) which Israel ceased as a buffer zone to protect itself after winning the war against Egypt.

just because a school or shelter was hit does not mean it was the original target and you well know that.

How could i know this as apprently

the Israel’s are extremely accurate in their responce

and they can dop no wrong in some eyes

TBH I just dont want to talk to you as i find your support of this reprehensible and much of your posts are bereft of insight, humanity or basic sympathy

Israel right or wrong and you will torture any facts or evidence to maintain that view.

the notion of historic Palestine is quite meaningless

Whereas the notion of historic Israel is…?

@gonzy as for reporting did you know a Hamas missile landed in Bethlehem ? I imagine they don’t have Iron Dome defenses protecting the Arab towns.

Whereas the notion of historic Israel is…?

Not particularly relevant.

The UK managed a peace agreement with the IRA without reuniting Ireland. Pretty much the rest of the Arab world have decided to “move on” from conflict with Israel. Hamas does have support from Iran but it lost it’s support from Syria once Hams sided with the rebels against the government. Hamas is appealing to the West as it has very little sway with other Arab nations.

@gonzy the Israelis never used the kidnapping of the boys as a rational for the offensive against Hamas, it was always about rockets and attack tunnels. If you read my post I say that naval artillery is not as accurate. I am sure you appreciate that a person following a target is focused on that target. If Hams wasn’t firing rockets there would not be any shelling.

Hamas is responsible for the murder of the Naftali Fraenkel, Eyal Yifrah and Gil-Ad Shaer, and Hamas will pay, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Monday evening at the start of an emergency security cabinet meeting called to determine how to respond to the murders.

Netanyahu said that the three teens were murdered in cold blood, and that the entire country is weeping with the families.

“We will bury the boys,” Netanyahu said. Then, paraphrasing Haim Nahman Bialik’s famous line that “Satan has not yet created vengeance for the blood of a small child,” he added, “nor for the blood of pure teens that were on their way home to see their parents, and who will never see them again.”
source: http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Netanyahu-Hamas-will-pay-for-the-murders-the-three-youths-361070

I read the demonstration was about 25,000 and as I said such a demonstration against government policy wouldn’t be possible in Gaza, you’d be murdered for speaking out against Hamas.

really?? were you there carrying out a headcount? i wasnt there…i got as far as birmingham before i had to turn around due to a family emergency but quite a few of my friends made it and they said the 150k figure was accurate…give or take a few thousand

As for bias in the media we should ask ourselves why the much greater loss of life in Syria and Iraq doesn’t make the same headlines.

more whataboutery…if you want to talk about ISIS etc. go on the other thread that i created just for you…actually dont because all you do on that thread is talk about Gaza

The fact is Hamas is fighting a propoganda war and it care more about tv images than loss of life so it invites journalists in and put them in the hospital and controls what they see and what they say. Any journalist off message knows they will be killed. There was a piece written by an Italian who left and he felt his life was in danger, in 2009 Hamas killed an Italian journalist who had lived in Gaza for years for reporting the “wrong” story.

care to add a link about this italian journo?
as for reporters feeling threatened by Hamas…this seems to say otherwise…
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/.premium-1.609589

notion of historic Palestine is quite meaningless

of course because Palestine never existed in the eyes of Israel…

Pretty much the rest of the Arab world have decided to “move on” from conflict

I’m sure the Palestinians would like to ‘move on’, but you’ve been killing their women and children while they shelter, taking their land, their water, their means to generate power, their dignity, their right to move freely.

That kind of thing tends to leave people a little sour.

Guardian just published a poll which said that 52% of the respondents thought Israels response in Gaza was not proportionate. So a left leaning paper has a poll which is pretty evenly split. People recognise Hamas is a terrorist organisation, its hard to side with that in my book.

I am very strongly anti-terrorist.

I sat 10 feet from a colleague who was on PanAm 103
I have crawled around on my hands and knees looking for bombs under my car each morning when visiting friends in the military at their accommodation
Have taken a ferry back to the UK just a couple of days before a young soldier was shot dead in his car at the check-in
Had colleagues whose offices where destroyed by the Aldwych bomb
Lived and worked in London for 20 years during the IRA bombing campaigns and seen first hand the necessary security measures
Had close friends who lost people on 9/11
Walked past police cordon outside Aldywich East tube the morning of 7/7

So I am anti-terrorist and I can well imagine how perpetual rocket fire from Gaza would warrant a firm responce. I can imagine why Donald Rumsfeld said “I understand some of these guys want to be be Martrys, well we are going to help them out”

@lodious, perhaps the ordinary Palestinian does want to move on but Hamas controls them and they do not. I wonder whether the more liberal Palestinians moved to Syria but they took sides against the government and the Jordanians won’t let the Palestinian refugees in. There must be a reason for that. You need to remember that Hamas has spent years building tunnels and weapons caches and they have provoked this conflict with rocket attacks.

If there is a positive outcome from this conflict it will be that Palestinians understand a negotiated settlement is the only solution and that armed struggle is futile and thus the possession of arms is pointless.

I can imagine why Donald Rumsfeld said “I understand some of these guys want to be be Martrys, well we are going to help them out”

no doubt you agree with it as well…just when i thought you couldnt drag this and yourself any further into the gutter…

I am very strongly anti-terrorist.

but you support the use of extreme force against innocent civilians which results in their deaths

you know, everyone here probably knows someone who has been closely affected by terrorism acts and war in general
your attempts at justifying your support of Israel’s acts of terror against the Palestinians, while saying you are anti-terrorist in your beliefs is a gross contradiction