Christening Children for Schooling purposes

It’s to do with subscription. Some church schools are heavily over subscribed and so can use only their primary criteria baptised etc, others less, so have to use other criteria, e.g has siblings, lives nearby etc..

I love the way people on here think that going to a faith school is some conspiracy.

THE DA VINCI CODE IS NOT REAL!

I’m shocked people are so weak that they would accept this current situation, no wonder the country is a mess.

Don’t forget, all schools have to teach religion in some form, so sending them to one school or another makes no difference in that respect.

this is just plain wrong by the way

Why should any school be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion anyway? About time this practice was outlawed if you ask me. School is for education, not indoctrination. I have no problem with anyone who chooses to follow a path that feel happy with, but if you want to bring your child up a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Zoroastian, then do it at home. Children should be educated in schools to have an open mind, and be able to make their own choices when they are ready to themselves, not have ideology thrust upon them.

spot on.

I feel dirty… I agree with Fred whole heartedly… <scratches frantically>

“Funded by the church” is just a joke it’s only the tax breaks they get that enable them to fund anything…

Load of shite.

What I mean to say is that going to a state school instead of a church school doesn’t mean that kids don’t get any kind of religious education. RE is a compulsory subject in state funded schools, though parents have a right to withdraw their kids. So I wouldn’t say my statement was plain wrong.

What I mean to say is that going to a state school instead of a church school doesn’t mean that kids don’t get any kind of religious education. RE is a compulsory subject in state funded schools, though parents have a right to withdraw their kids. So I wouldn’t say my statement was plain wrong.

That’s education *about* religion, not education *in* religion. I had education *in* religion at Sunday School, where they taught me about the bible and stuff like that, how to be a christian etc. I had education *about* religion in RE, and not just Christianity, we learnt about the teachings of various religions.

What is wrong about church schools is that essentially they are selecting a particular group of people, and saying ‘the state should fund schools just for these people’. So for those people, they have a choice of a larger number of schools than people who don’t subscribe to that belief.

Even ignoring the religious discrimination, which at least they are legally supposed to be allowed to do, they also blatantly do select pupils based on social factors (which is supposed not to happen) – by doing things like interviewing parents of pupils – if you look at the statistics for normal state schools vs religious schools, it is incredibly stark how much they socially exclude people – they let in far fewer poor people – if you look at free school meals (the most common indicator used to define ‘poor’ children, in normal schools 20% of pupils are getting them vs about 10% for most religious schools.

The other interesting thing is that once you take into account the relative affluence and social standing of their intake, religious state schools don’t actually get better results than non-religious ones, it is just that they exclude poor people who are less likely to get better results. The weird thing about that statistic being that even given their selective nature and exclusion of poor people, the richer people let in don’t actually perform better than they would at any other school, meaning that sending your kid to a religious school in search of good grades is less of an advantage than some would think.

indeed teaching religion and teaching about religion are two very different things

The other interesting thing is that once you take into account the relative affluence and social standing of their intake, religious state schools don’t actually get better results than non-religious ones, it is just that they exclude poor people who are less likely to get better results

Indeed which is why Goves new Baccaluureate has been bought in, because the schools with poor kids were getting too high up the league tables, same as why the CVA inst used much either, then the Grammar and selective schools would be exposed for thr frauds they are!

Schools to change baccalaureate to something pupils can spell

I’d still like to know ..

Why are you trying to get them into this school anyway? You don’t like its policy and practices. So why do you want your kid to go there?

Does a primary school child understand the difference? I wouldn’t have thought so myself. And once they’ve been taught about religion, then have daily “collective worship” in school, doesn’t it all add up to pretty much the same thing?

, then have daily “collective worship”

doesnt happen in my school

I’ve worked in a Church of England Voluntary Aided school in the South West and I have no religious interests what-so-ever. Intake is 50% CofE, 25% other religions inc other christian variations, 25% open intake. It does well in the league tables and is a generally nice place to work – and I have worked in the complete opposite school in the tables.

The pupils do have to attend a set number of religious services per week but I’ll be honest they aren’t that different from normal assemblies except they have a prayer at the end. What’s more the resident vicar is fully aware that whilst the pupils may come from a religious background they are still in the process of making up their own minds. This leads to an atmosphere where religion and belief can be openly discussed. I have even had a conversation with pupils about having to go to church to get into the school and then they stop once in!

What I’m trying to say is that IME religious schools are not about indoctrination that takes place in the home!

Posted 6 hours ago # Report-PostGW – Member
[naive]Don’t forget, all schools have to teach religion in some form, so sending them to one school or another makes no difference in that respect.[/naive]

Posted 6 hours ago # woody2000 – Member
GW – care to expand on that? It’s certainly true, so what’s the problem?

You honestly think a Catholic School teaches religion exactly the same as a non denomination/religious School? or a teacher with firm religious beliefs the same as an athiest/agnostic Teacher?

Posted 6 hours ago # Report-Postmarcus – Member
GW – Are you Muslim

of course not 😕

woody2000 – Member
Does a primary school child understand the difference?

yep, for example mine when in P1 (4yr old) had serious issues with a teacher teaching christianity as FACT and I had to go in and sort it out. (and this is in a non-religious state school

I wouldn’t have thought so myself. And once they’ve been taught about religion, then have daily “collective worship” in school, doesn’t it all add up to pretty much the same thing?

of course not 😕

I’d rather my son was told the truth about religion.

i would not let my daughter get within a hundred yards of a priest.
have you been to the scotland recently and seen what religios segregation/bigitory is doing here ……its totally f…..d up

it’s sons you need to worry about 😉

Italspark; is that post for real?

Some ‘interesting’ views. If they are based on heresay or actual experience is difficult to tell in some cases.

Charlie – Our eldest wont be going to school for the next 3 years. We have alot more thinking to do yet before we final our preferred choice, but wnat to keep as many doors open as usual. WHilst you are right about disagreeing with the religious element of the schools policy & practice, IF the standard of education is substantially better, it MAY be worth ‘tolerating’ part of the policy providing it does not dictate every hour of the school day. After all, I dont agree with all the policies of the alternative school. – The major 1 being a very relaxed uniform code.

Thanks marcus, that’s a bit clearer. However, it seems to me that the reason the standard of education is as high as it is, is because of the policies and practice, so the idea of objecting to them but tolerating them seems a little contradictory, to me.

uniform is a major concern but religion isn’t?

WTF? 😯

italspark – Member
…have you been to the scotland recently and seen what religios segregation/bigitory is doing here ……its totally f…..d up

That’s fitba…

Come on man, kids are cleverer than people on here think. It’s made out on here that everyone who goes to a faith school will end up a Bishop or Cardinal.

Has anyone actually been to a faith school who’s commenting on this? All my RE lessons consisted of were kids taking the piss and asking questions such as:

“Sir, how come Jesus never got married? Was he gay?”

“Was Moses high when the Red Sea parted?”

“If Jesus made all those loaves and fishes, why didn’t he magic himself a motorbike?”

And this was a Catholic school. Do you think everyone comes out of education indoctrinated zombies? No one does. If anything, it gives you a good perspective on other faiths and beliefs.

when you were 4 aye? 🙄

All the way from 4 to 18. I never once thought God was actually in the room, or that the communion hosts were actually the body of Christ.

By the way GW, have you read the Da Vinci Code?

😳

nah, but my 4yr old has 😉

Even ignoring the religious discrimination, which at least they are legally supposed to be allowed to do, they also blatantly do select pupils based on social factors (which is supposed not to happen) – by doing things like interviewing parents of pupils – if you look at the statistics for normal state schools vs religious schools, it is incredibly stark how much they socially exclude people – they let in far fewer poor people – if you look at free school meals (the most common indicator used to define ‘poor’ children, in normal schools 20% of pupils are getting them vs about 10% for most religious schools.

Sorry,but not in my experience of teaching in a Catholic secondary school.This thread was done a couple of years ago on the old forum.My view was,as now that if you object to what they push,don’t send your kids.The reason that there are so many church schools is because they were in at the start of compulsory education,as they were with most welfare reforms up to the pension in 1906.I would imagine that there are enough CoE etc schools in England to make it impossible to pick up the shortfall if they were forced to close(I would guess the various religions would object to the government asking to borrow their building for a new secular school)]FWIW My experience with a Catholic secondary was that the kids sussed it all out pretty quickly.

I’m with elfin on this one, however if one was moved to send their child to such a school, couldn’t you just lie?
“baptism? Aye we had him done before we moved here” “what church? It was eeeerm it was the big one with the pointy roof, can’t remember the name, but yeah wee Abdul is totally baptised and stuff”

Duckman has a point

I’m not religious and I don’t have.kids. I also agree with Fred which really makes me wonder why I’m on this thread. I’m just curious as to why these schools do well in league tables and are desirable in the local community. Does it have anything to do with their religious subtext?

My view was,as now that if you object to what they push,don’t send your kids.

Or complain loudly to all concerned that you thinks its wrong and vote for those who listen. I would not work at one of the places either.

The reason that there are so many church schools is because they were in at the start of compulsory education,as they were with most welfare reforms up to the pension in 1906.

God botherers love nothing more than getting more people to bother their particular god, if you think that is not the main reason for them being involved so heavily in education you are naive at best.

My view was,as now that if you object to what they push,don’t send your kids.

That is my view too, can’t see why you would “tow the line” or pretend to be religious just to get your kid into a school that you probably wouldnt agree with.

I agree with some of the other stuff mentioned, seems fair enough to me that a faith school can have “faith” as a primary factor in determining it’s intake though it does allow cherry picking which skews the stats.

I think alot of it is how you help your kids learn anyway, it’s not like you wash your hands of their learning when they start school. I will ensure my daughter gets any extra help she needs regardless of how good the school she attends is.

We have been told that the best school for our son is a catholic school. I disagree and disagree with religious schools so will not be playing along with their games.
I wouldn’t want him to be taught homosexuality is sinful, women are not equal to men, people go to heaven when they die or certain thing are evil. All of these things were included in everyday teaching when I went to a CE school.
Also I do not belive education is only down to the school. As parents my wife and I will be topping up or adding to my son’s education.

Those of you who has said, just go along with it, kids are smarter anyway, would you send your child to a Muslim or Scientology school, just because they get better grades?

Strong coffee this morning AA?

God botherers love nothing more than getting more people to bother their particular god, if you think that is not the main reason for them being involved so heavily in education you are naive at best.

Or well read on the subject and not blinkered by a dislike(or like) of Christianity as you would seem to be,based on your above remark.The schools system was set up at a time when religious observance was a given,certainly in rural areas, rather than the exception.Churches were already teaching children to read and write,for the obvious reason that the bible is a book,but also because of the 18/19th century idea of “Self-help” When the 1880 Elementary Education Act came out,the Government at the time (Liberal)used the fact that they had a ready made system in place,saving money.
I certainly see a not too disimilar.
idea now,sending your kids to the church school to get the skills in life to get ahead.

Charlie – You are probably right about the contradictory bit. If there was no contradiction, the decision as to which would be our school of choice would be clear cut. Its our thoughts and comments above from people who have taught and attended church schools that the religious element is perhaps worth tolerating if the standard of education and other practices and policies are more to our preference.

GW – I feel uniform is important in schools, but there are other factors including better sports facilities and reported education standards, etc at the church school. It seems daft not to take advantage of these, if as people have said kids suss out the ‘religious element’ pretty quickly.

“GW – Member
nah, but my 4yr old has”

Could your 4 year old also teach you to use punctuation?

Your brilliant education obviously worked wonders.

😉

it is incredibly stark how much they socially exclude people – they let in far fewer poor people – if you look at free school meals (the most common indicator used to define ‘poor’ children, in normal schools 20% of pupils are getting them vs about 10% for most religious schools.

this is more the “pushy parent” effect where particular school catchments push house prices, hence why some areas don’t use distance as a primary criterea for entrance. Opportunistic parishes will use church attendance as a selection criterea where they can influence it. It helps push the number of young families attending church up when in reality the parents would rather have a lie in or go for a ride.

I’ve been round 4 primaries locally as my first is off to school next year.
one (very small) school had close ties to the church but wasn’t over subscribed last year. VActive PTA
the local CofE school had weak ties to the adjacent church due to a change in vicar (over subscribed)PTA in flux
local community primary no direct ties but some classes teaching RE during the visit (over subscribed)VActive PTA
less local community school in top 20 nationally on results, not very impressive, teaching about non christian festivals during visit (over subscribed) VActive PTA

as a parent if you object to a religious connection a school has you can chose a community one. If it’s pants then join the PTA, get on the governors and help turn it around rather than moaning about having to betray your personal beliefs to get a percieved “better” education for your kids. What lesson does faking it give your kids?

I’m curious,can a PTA actually stop,say a CoE church doing its thing?

Do it. Why should any school be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion anyway? About time this practice was outlawed if you ask me. School is for education, not indoctrination. I have no problem with anyone who chooses to follow a path that feel happy with, but if you want to bring your child up a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Zoroastian, then do it at home. Children should be educated in schools to have an open mind, and be able to make their own choices when they are ready to themselves, not have ideology thrust upon them.

I pretty much agree with Fred. For that reason I am out!!!

I would disagree slightly that children should not be indoctrinated at home either as I would liken it to encouraging your children to smoke until they are old enough to choose not to. IMO it should be the other way around.
My children 14 and 11 have not been christened and its caused them or us no issues with school choice.
The whole funding issue is a disgrace however.