Ched Evans

Only three people really know what happened and people are rightly/wrongly convicted all the time.

Probably only two people know what happened as the girl says she remembers nothing. The odd thing here is that the folks that do know what happened didn’t think there was any offence because in their view the girl saying yes was her giving consent. The law and the jury disagreed however.

I sincerely hope that if I ever have the misfortune to appear before a court of law in this country that the jury isn’t comprised entirely of STW members 😀

Hung jury after 27 weeks deliberation

Hung jury after 27 weeks deliberation

The only evidence I’d need to clear or convict is what size wheels does his mountain bike have and what tyres are fitted.

I find it very worrying that people like Miliband and Cameron are weighing in on a subject like this and offering their opinion. I don’t see how one individual can be treated differently by the judicial system to everybody else.

The judicial system that found him guilty and punished him is the same judicial system that allows him to re-enter employment as part of his rehabilitation.

It’s surely the only apparatus that can take such a decision, and it already has- he is able to return to work, the same as everybody else who fulfils the relevant criteria of their sentence.

There’s a strong argument that like education or social care or whatever, football should be an industry where people who are convicted of such crimes should be banned for life. This is where people need to direct their energy in my opinion, and not at an individual person via some kind of internet witch-hunt.

Whether the guy is a likeable person or not and all the rest of it is totally irrelevant.

It can’t possibly be right for the legal system to be subverted just because a lot of people don’t like it.

Apparently the police commisioner of northumberland contacted mike ashley (whos company sponser oldham) urging him to pull the plug on the 1mil deal he has with the club if they go ahead with the signing

That is wrong on so many levels

Epicsteve the jury may well have found that she was not consenting to sex with McDonald and still aquited him of rape see point two on my roadmap.

Really? I think most people here would have said “put some clothes on luv, let’s get you home”.

Maybe if married, but when young and single?

Although that could be down to my age, as stuff that was ok when I was his age, ain’t now (according to my kids when they watch old TV shows).

@Duggan I’m not sure this guy is receiving special attention from the judicial system. I couldn’t return to my job if I had been convicted of the same crime as he has. I can’t speak for any other industry but I’m sure it would bar you from many other walks of life. So why not football. The ‘he’s done his time’ argument just doesn’t add up.

@Duggan I’m not sure this guy is receiving special attention from the judicial system. I couldn’t return to my job if I had been convicted of the same crime as he has. I can’t speak for any other industry but I’m sure it would bar you from many other walks of life. So why not football. The ‘he’s done his time’ argument just doesn’t add up.

But in his case, the judicial system has decided that he is able to return to his job. So for me, the only relevant apparatus able to take such a complex decision has already spoken.

There are doubtless plenty of jobs where you can’t return to work after such a conviction. But it’s been decided that his isn’t one of them by the very judicial system that we devised to make these decisions.

Why not football? It probably should be- so in this case, we should aim to amend the legal system to include football as such a job where you cannot play if convicted of sexual assault. But we can surely only expect Evans to be treated as per the law in force at the time.

Really? I think most people here would have said “put some clothes on luv, let’s get you home

Speak for yourself. I reckon most people on here wouldn’t be creeping round occupied hotel rooms at 4 in the morning.

Tomkerton, Duggan, I’m still really struggling as to why football is an unsuitable job for a convicted rapist. The jobs that are deemed unsuitable are mainly to protect the public from this kind of person. Footballers don’t come into contact with vulnerable people so why should it be on the list?

No-one can assume he was guilty simply based on the assumption that he’s a bit of a **** footballer.

I dunno, I kind of assume ‘guilty’ if they’ve been found guilty and had an appeal turned down.

Tomkerton, Duggan, I’m still really struggling as to why football is an unsuitable job for a convicted rapist. The jobs that are deemed unsuitable are mainly to protect the public from this kind of person. Footballers don’t come into contact with vulnerable people so why should it be on the list?

Most footballers come into contact with young people all the time- they are CRB checked and endlessly visiting hospitals and many charitable and PR causes at the behest of their sponsors and clubs. Doubtless, convicted rapists could be excepted from such activities, I agree.

A footballer may not come into contact with vulnerable people as part of their job but surely their famous status and natural position as a role model makes them far more of a threat to vulnerable people than say, a fisherman?

lunge
Footballers don’t come into contact with vulnerable people so why should it be on the list?

Fame is an interesting one, can you name another League 2 player? Me neither. Let not think he’s going to play in the premier league in front of 40k people each week earning £100k per week, he’s not. He’s signing for Oldham in league 2, they’ll get 1500 fans a week at a guess, he’ll earn in the region of £1k per week at a guess.

Edit, Jimjam, fair but as it’s not a core part of a footballers job I’m sure he could be removed from thus duty.

As noted it i s unlikely he will ever be doing the community work and he may be spotted were he to try.
As for the anoymous fisherman who recognises him ?

Fame is an interesting one, can you name another League 2 player? Me neither. Let not think he’s going to play in the premier league in front of 40k people each week earning £100k per week, he’s not. He’s signing for Oldham in league 2, they’ll get 1500 fans a week at a guess, he’ll earn in the region of £1k per week at a guess.

But you’re just focusing on one individual?! My only statement that was that there is an argument for footballers not to be able to return to work after a conviction of sexual assault, like say the education sector.

It’s pretty obvious that in future, the same crime could be committed by somebody who is very famous and is a household name.

Or, again very obvious in my opinion, a footballer could be league 2 at the time of conviction and a premier league star five or ten years later.

I’ve already stated that I think Evans should be able to return to work.

Hmmm, oak or fir, I wonder?

Duggan

But in his case, the judicial system has decided that he is able to return to his job. So for me, the only relevant apparatus able to take such a complex decision has already spoken.

There are doubtless plenty of jobs where you can’t return to work after such a conviction. But it’s been decided that his isn’t one of them by the very judicial system that we devised to make these decisions.

The judicial system has said he can go back to work, but his previous employers had the option to employ him or not. What outraged so many people (most of whom would automatically forfeit their jobs and their careers after such a conviction) was that not not only had his club never considered sacking him, they were actually paying him while he was incarcerated.

Consider Rolf Harris or Dave Lee Travis. When they’ve served their time should they be allowed back into their old jobs?

Duggan wrote – Why not football? It probably should be- so in this case, we should aim to amend the legal system to include football as such a job where you cannot play if convicted of sexual assault. But we can surely only expect Evans to be treated as per the law in force at the time.

Good point, well made. I can’t argue with your logic here mate.

As noted it i s unlikely he will ever be doing the community work and he may be spotted were he to try.
As for the anoymous fisherman who recognises him ?

Nobody, which is why he would be able to return to work?

Please note I’ve already stated that I think Ched Evans should be able to return to work.

Graham Rix was able to return to football management after he was released from prison, however the FA banned him from working with your players under 16. Something similar could be done with Evans if he was considered a risk.

He had that overturned . by the FA, on appeal FWIW

so if the sex offender cannot be recognised its safer for him to go to work?

A footballer may not come into contact with vulnerable people as part of their job but surely their famous status and natural position as a role model makes them far more of a threat to vulnerable people than say, a fisherman?

I disagree his notoriety means he is less of a threat as everyone knows who he is and what he has done
Sorry if i was unclear in making this point.

Junkyard- interesting, never thought of it from that angle, though I’m not sure I agree.

I’m going to leave this one here now anyway, final thought below.

Regardless of whether footballers should be able to play after such a conviction, I think there is a debate to be had here and that those who are angry re: the Ched Evans case should direct their energy at the legal framework as we’ve discussed above and not at an individual imo.

I wonder how broadcasters feel….despite all the saville stuff they will still be broadcasting and paying an unrepentant rapist.

Very odd.

I wonder how broadcasters feel….despite all the saville stuff they will still be broadcasting and paying an unrepentant rapist.

Probably not worth worrying about their feelings until they stop playing Roman Polanski movies.

I wonder how broadcasters feel….despite all the saville stuff they will still be broadcasting and paying an unrepentant rapist.

Very odd.

It’s a confused situation though because effectively what the jury found is that at the moment Evans walked into the room McDonald and the victim were engaged in consentual sex, but on Evans asking if he could have sex with her too (and getting told yes) that sex was non consentual and therefore rape.

@epicsteve

Yep I think more people should read the court paper on it….

its actually a surprisingly short read and tbh I’d be very worried about going to court for anything vaguely sex related.

Do we think convicted criminals should be allowed to work or not? My answer would be yes. What we think of him and what that job is is largely irrelevant. The guy is probably a vile human being but we don’t get to choose who we like and don’t like and arbitrarily apply special rules to them

The main problem here is the idea that footballers are supposed to be role models.

What we think of him and what that job is is largely irrelevant. The guy is probably a vile human being but we don’t get to choose who we like and don’t like and arbitrarily apply special rules to them

It’s not irrelevant at all. Which is why we arbitrarily apply rules to sex offenders.

It’s not irrelevant at all. Which is why we arbitrarily apply rules to sex offenders.

That’s different and not arbitrary – rules apply to sex offenders to prevent them working with vulnerable people etc. I don’t see how that applies in this case.

And that’s a decision for the relevant authorities/employers not the newspapers/the mob.

its actually a surprisingly short read and tbh I’d be very worried about going to court for anything vaguely sex related.

Ched Evans’ situation is significantly worse because he shows no remorse. Thing is, I’m not convinced he’s guilty. Guilty of being involved in a sleazy incident, probably not a nice person, but rape…..Rape cases like this are torrid affairs.

Damn copy and paste glitch…

In the case of football clubs, it’s also for supporters (call them customers if we must) and sponsors to decide. Clearly, lots of supporters of the clubs for which he’s been a prospective signing have decided they don’t want to cheer Evans, and presumably see their ticket money paying his wages.

In the case of football clubs, it’s also for supporters (call them customers if we must) and sponsors to decide. Clearly, lots of supporters of the clubs for which he’s been a prospective signing have decided they don’t want to cheer Evans, and presumably see their ticket money paying his wages.

OK, that’s their right I suppose – but is it just sex offences that are considered unacceptable? Would we see the same level of outrage if he’d killed someone drink-driving or speeding for instance? I suspect not.

I just think you’re on slightly dodgy ground when you start trying to make moral judgements about people based on what you’ve read about them in newspapers.

I just think you’re on slightly dodgy ground when you start trying to make moral judgements about people based on what you’ve read about them in newspapers.

I’ll assume you mean “one is on slightly dodgy ground” rather than me, as I’ve read little about Evans in newspapers (I have, however, read some opinion pieces by commentators whose opinions I might respect) but most of what I know about him I’ve gleaned from the court stuff available to read. I’m quite comfortable making moral judgements about the likes of Ched Evans. And I also think he should be treated differently as a rapist – as society generally deals differently with sex offenders, even after they’ve served their time (which of course, Evans hasn’t yet). Many fans of these clubs are women, plenty of young women, and I’d hazard, some who’ll have been a victim of rape and not have been or felt able to do much about it. Who knows how they’d feel listening to the chants (accepting JY’s earlier comments that the chants aren’t necessarily his fault)?

I guess I’m just trying to explain why I feel this case isn’t just a simple returning-to-work-after-jail thing, as bleeding heart liberal as I am, believing that very few are beyond redemption. My one conflict about Evans is, while I don’t want to see him play football, he’s never going to be able to self-impose a level of anonymity to do any other work now. The clubs, whether they like it or not, have to take into account their supporters’ views, their sponsors’ views and the views of the sizeable chunk of the general population who are morally outraged by this. I’m no fan of moral outrage in general, but I’m cool with men and women being a bit outraged about rape.

As for the other crimes, I dunno tbh. What ever happened with the Plymouth Argyle keeper? I think he went back to work for them didn’t he? But I can’t remember if he displayed contrition or not afterwards. My opinion on Evans’ “right” to work as a footballer is based as much on his actions (or lack thereof) subsequent to his release.

I think it’s a bit hypocritical the whole mob justice thing going on over this. We don’t see it for footballers when they’re done for drink driving or assaulting people yet this IMO isn’t acceptable behaviour for role models to be showing.

He’s served the time given him by the courts so he should have every right to seek employment. If someone chooses to employ him it’s not up to mob justice to see that they don’t.

He’s served the time

😆

How many more times…??

I’ll assume you mean “one is on slightly dodgy ground” rather than me

Yup.

Many fans of these clubs are women, plenty of young women, and I’d hazard, some who’ll have been a victim of rape and not have been or felt able to do much about it. Who knows how they’d feel listening to the chants (accepting JY’s earlier comments that the chants aren’t necessarily his fault)?

That’s an appalling scenario but isn’t that a football/football fans problem? I can see where you’re coming from but I still think it’s dodgy to say he shouldn’t be allowed to play football.

My one conflict about Evans is, while I don’t want to see him play football, he’s never going to be able to self-impose a level of anonymity to do any other work now.

This is the thing – what work should he do if not football? I’m not sure if it applies exactly in this scenario but I believe in general criminals are more likely to reoffend if they are marginalised/unemployed etc.

I wonder if all the general public who are condemning him will be able to apologise to him if the Criminal cases review commission process ends up finding him not guilty ultimately? It’s interesting that he gets a lot of stick for never admitting guilt or apologising as he believes he is innocent, yet I wonder if they will behave just like he did?