Cathy Newman v George Galloway, last night C4,

I am not a bigot and cannot remember ever having posted any such. Perhaps you could furnish me with evidence of this? You’d be the first.

Where was the objection from the “Muslim Community” to the Falklands War or the Chinese annexation of Tibet, for instance. Why was there no outrage from our Islamic fellow-citizens about books criticising their religion from non-muslims, but outrage at the innocuous fiction of Salman Rushdie? Why is it, that despite protestations of innocency and claims to be seeking level-status with other members of UK society, do British mosques still invite ignorant ranting Imams to preach the collective murder of homosexuals, amongst others and why are these preachers not prosecuted? … and so on…

It seems to me, that the overriding sensibility of Muslims in all areas of debate, is their own “Umma”.

If it’s not, then Muslims are doing themselves no favours by acting as though it is. In my opinion.

Not wanting to turn the thread into a debate about Muslims, BTW – just clarifying a point raised by grum…

How many on here have had GG as an MP?

How many have actually talked with him and asked him to resolve an issue as an MP?

Thought so!

Ignorance is apparently bliss, must mean STW is the happiest place on earth.

I am not a bigot and cannot remember ever having posted any such. Perhaps you could furnish me with evidence of this?

no one needs to. you do it yourself. twice in your last two posts.

It seems to me, that the overriding sensibility of Muslims in all areas of debate, is their own “Umma”.

This is your expert opinion of Muslims, based on er, what exactly? Making crass insulting generalisations based on second hand evidence – sounds a bit like bigotry to me.

big·ot
? ?[big-uht] Show IPA
noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Nope.

All I wrote was a series of observations based on evidence from reports about the activities of a defined group of people, in this case, “Muslims”.

At no point did I suggest that their activities were intolerable.

Try again. (And now it occurs to me that I’m in danger of turning into ernie).

Here’s wikipedia’s take on it. Describes you perfectly.

Bigotry is the state of mind of a “bigot,” a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance and animosity toward members of a group.

I am always tolerant of people’s right to join whatever they want.

Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it…

Actually, thinking about it, the activities I describe are by small groups of people who happen to be Muslims – book burnings, requests for beheadings and so on – of the likes of Mr Choudhary and his fellow travellers, for instance.

I agree it is skewed to ascribe their particular type of drivel with the larger religious group as a whole. I concede the point.

We should all be wary of those who choose to represent us.

Wow someone conceding a point – that must be a first for STW. Fair play Woppit.

Could be an April Fool’s trick. Never seen it at any other time on STW 😉

I’d like to reassure all my readers that the post is genuine. As opposed to: “Queen to open Olympics with rare fish”.

Then Respect to mr.Woppit.
Although I’d like the rare fish story to be true too.

I am now left with the interesting question as to how I managed to arrive in the position of ascribing the acts of small numbers of individuals embedded within larger groupings, to the larger grouping itself.

I’m just going outside. I may be some time.

druidh – Member

Seeing him be taken in by George Galloway has disappointed me

Well when I provide such startling irrefutable evidence such as the following, it’s hard for me to deny that I have been taken in, hook, line, and sinker, by Galloway :

“For the record I’m not Galloway’s number one fan, I meant what I said about him being a big-headed git, and he spends too much time rubbing shoulders with trots, something which he has paid the price for. His performance on Big Brother was nothing short of disgraceful, utterly embarrassing, and totally unnecessary. Made all the worse by his pathetic and ridiculous attempt to justify it by claiming he did it to help ordinary people connect with politicians – complete bollox, he should have had the courage to admit that it was a disastrous mistake.”

What you seem to be completely unable to understand is that I’m not some kind of idealist who lives in an airy-fairy land divorced from reality, and where all issues can be solved by a simple black and white answer after careful consideration with regards to what is right and wrong.

Nor do I see politics, despite my often irreverence to it, as some sort of “fun game” without any consequences. Politics for me, despite my piss-take and ridicule, is a deadly game with very real and profound consequences, which effect very real people in a very profound way.

With that in mind, I strive to be sensible, pragmatic, and realistic, whilst at the same time accepting that one often has to compromise on one’s own personal preferences. The only issue which for me is completely black and white, nonnegotiable, straightforward, and simple, is my commitment to a society where social justice and peace prevails. I might not always get it right, but that is where my commitment lies and what motivates me.

Furthermore I am not sectarian, I fully recognise the undeniable truth that meaningful progress in the interests of the vast majority of ordinary working people can only be effectively achieved through the maximum level of unity. All of this can result in what might appear to some who completely lack any class conscious (unlike our present government) rather contradictory positions.

Up until 1995 I supported and worked my bollox off for the Labour Party, in the 1997 general election I canvassed for the Liberal Democrats which I continued to support until Nick Clegg became leader, in 2010 I supported the Greens. Throughout that period my beliefs and principles did not changed one iota, I changed my position purely on the basis of what I thought best served the interests of ordinary working people. I’m not saying that I necessarily always got it right, I’m saying that is what motivated me – although I reckon I probably did get it reasonably right 🙂

As an example of just how far I am prepared to go to maintain unity and put the interests of ordinary working people before sectarianism and disunity, take the question of trots. No one, just no one, slags off trots more than me on this forum. And yet, given a straight choice between voting Conservative, New Labour, or SWP (an unlikely event I know) I would happily vote SWP. I would even, God forbid, consider voting Tory, if it was a choice between a One Nation anti-war Tory and a warmongering New Labour careerist, something which btw is more likely than you might expect.

Basically I’m guided by my class conscious. And no, that’s not just in relation to the quashed bottom proletarian, but also the squeezed middle. I see no serious conflict of interests between blue collar manual workers and the white collar middle-classes……we’re all in this together bruv.

BTW interesting point you raise about the Muslim community on Bradford West Woppit. Labour thought they had everything sown up and the seat was theirs because they mistakenly thought that Bradford is just like Afghanistan, and the by-election would simply be an exercise in “managed democracy” :

One of the most senior members of the Labour operation in Bradford said yesterday: “We misread the networks, so the elders were saying everyone was voting one way, when their daughters were going out and doing what they wanted.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/indefatigable-the-comeback-carpetbagger-does-it-again-7606230.html

He said young Muslims were angry at being told who to vote for by their elders and rebellious over Labour’s assumption that it had a “god-given right” to run the city.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/galloways-bradford-win-shocks-main-parties-7604126.html

Oh how wrong they were – Bradford isn’t Afghanistan. And what a great for democracy in Britain.

And please Woppit, don’t pretend that the election result was all down to Muslim voters. Galloway received far more votes than the size of the Muslim community, and many Muslims will have voted for the Labour Muslim candidate. Galloway managed to unite the majority of Bradford voters across ethnic boundaries in opposition to the Tories, LibDems, and Labour.

Ernie, Is that post just a long winded airy fairy feel good class conscious way of justifying the fact you’re about to vote for Red Ken again, despite vowing not to?

Well done Zulu-Eleven – as an intellectually bankrupt right-winger who is incapable of engaging in meaningful political debate, you never let me down 8)

And thanks for reading my post btw – you must’ve slogged through it. Sadly I rarely can be arsed to read yours 🙂

their daughters were going out and doing what they wanted.

I find that very encouraging.

And please Woppit, don’t pretend that the election result was all down to Muslim voters.

Yes. I agree. As an analysis it’s missing – how can I put this – any analysis. 😳

He [Z-11]asked you a pretty straight forward question I dont know why you did not just answer it rather than just [gently] insult it/him.Is this some more of you engaing meamingfully in political discussion that no one else does?
Re your kind post at me

conveniently ignoring the inconvenient

what like the rest of my quote…that sort of thing?

BTW Junkyard it is a measure of just desperate you are that you have been forced to resort to calling me “comrade” and “Che”,

I never called you Che – I merly pointed out that you accused me of the cult of personality yet you yourself named yourself after him…it would seem that you seem to be particularly affected by this affliction not me
says the man calling himself after Che Oh the irony

Is it a coincidence that of all the name combinations you chose Che’s real name as your log on?
It is certainly not coincidence that you are not addressing the point I made though.

the typical puerile schoolyard taunts

Yes it is pretty clear you have kept yourself well above this whilst I have descended into just making gentle personal digs about you and your politics 😕

of intellectually bankrupt right-wingers who are incapable of engaging in meaningful political debate.

I am fairly confident we are some way short of meaningful political debate- I think this exchange has even managed to make the Commons look disciplined and a well considered bastion of reason and respect.

And I expect nothing more from a pseudo-leftie who can’t defend his own contradictions

What contradiction I would vote for Respect but not for GG. This is not a contradiction even though you may think it is. It is just like you would vote for some Tories and against some labour MP’s based on what they represent stand for and do – this is all I am doing in terms of GG/Respect. Like you I consider who I am voting for as well as the party.

No doubt at all that he[GG] will now do what he did last time – be absent from parliament and pursue his next “George Galloway”-centric programme of self aggrandisement, leaving the poor saps who voted for him without representation of any kind.

This is why I would not vote for him.

I agree it is skewed to ascribe their particular type of drivel with the larger religious group as a whole. I concede the point.

RESPECT

TBH he remind0 sme of Derek Hattoin in the sense that he will appeal to some but he will set the cause back more than he will serve it IMHO.

He [Z-11]asked you a pretty straight forward question I dont know why you did not just answer it ……..

What question ffs ? This one ?

“Is that post just a long winded airy fairy feel good class conscious way of justifying the fact you’re about to vote for Red Ken again, despite vowing not to?”

Yeah right, I’ll answer it. That’s right, that was just a long winded airy fairy feel good class conscious way of justifying the fact I’m about to vote for Red Ken again, despite vowing not to 🙄

You’re obviously unaware Junkyard, that Z-11 brings up me voting for Livingston, or “Red Ken” as the childish herbert likes to call him, on a regular basis when he can’t think of anything else to say.

And it all stems from a time long ago when I happened to mention that I was happy to vote for Livingstone when he was an independent candidate standing against Labour, but that after his re-admittance into the Labour Party I once said to him, personally, that I was no longer prepared to vote for him. Immediately he inquired whether it was because of the Iraq War, “yes” I answered. I then mentioned that I voted for Livingstone anyway, because on balance I thought he was the best candidate. And besides, he’s hardly been the greatest supporter of the Iraq War – I’ve heard speak at Stop the War rallies ffs.

For reasons I don’t understand Z-11 sees this as some sort of stick to beat me with and brings it up with tedious regularity – as I say, presumably when he can’t think of anything else to say. And of course he will do so again in the future, the poor intellectually bankrupt Tory. As it happens, since Livingstone has recently thrown his weight behind Ed Balls, it is now even more unlikely I will vote for him – if I want Tory policies I’ll vote Tory, not Labour.

I merly pointed out that you accused me of the cult of personality…..

Now you’re fantasising – I haven’t clue what you’re on about. Still never mind, I’m getting a little bored now.

So, well, I was right then,

You don’t half go round the houses to answer a simple question, do you? are you getting paid by the word or something 🙄

Its almost as if you feel you need to defend your actions, like you feel conflicted or guilty about something 😉

Up until 1995 I supported and worked my bollox off for the Labour Party, in the 1997 general election I canvassed for the Liberal Democrats which I continued to support until Nick Clegg became leader, in 2010 I supported the Greens.

Whore!

And yet it was New Labour and the LibDems who became whores to industrialists and bankers damo, my position never changed. If the Greens, Galloway, Tony Benn, John McDonnell, or anyone else tries that stroke, then they can expect the same reaction. I’m not married to them you know. And if more people made “policies” the overriding factor, then the British people might be in a position to expect more responsive politicians.

Big hitter suck-pool par excellence!

I haven’t clue what you’re on about. Still never mind, I’m getting a little bored now

It would appear that we have reached the point where we accept that both you and i dont just vote for a party but we consider what the person before us stands for and represents and not just the party emblem

In your case this represents a noble struggle for you to represent your class [ that you rarely get wrong]and in my case it is due to me being a hypocritcial pseudo leftie motivated by “personality”

I am not surprised you are faux confused and unwilling to defend this position

*orders yet more “Big Hitter” Certificates*

It’s a great pity that a party offering a genuinely different manifesto is headed by an egotistical self-publicist whose excellent public-speaking diverts attention from the facts that a) he is an exceptionally lazy and dishonest MP, and b) he is an apologist for mass murderers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4451848.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4016803.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6901033.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/5105863/Best-and-worst-value-MPs-revealed.html

How many on here have had GG as an MP?

Me – several years back when he was ‘serving’ Glasgow Hillhead. That experience helped shape my current perception that he’s a self-serving, ego-centric nutsack.

GG = Grizzly Gus?

😉 One from the old skool….

yes I noticed that coincidence to cpt

I am not surprised you are faux confused and unwilling to defend this position

I have no idea what “faux confused” means but I’m not often accused of being unwilling to defend my position. But yeah, sometimes quite frankly I can’t be arsed. I hadn’t realised this thread was an example of that though – I thought I justified my position rather more than I needed to.

…..both you and i dont just vote for a party but we consider what the person before us stands for and represents and not just the party emblem

Nope, you have completely misunderstood. I do support and will vote for a party even when I disagree with it, whoever the candidates happen to be. Do you seriously think I have ever had much in common with the Liberal Democratics ? Or even the Labour Party under Neil Kinnock ? I did so because I compromised, I’m always prepared to compromise if imo it serves the best interests of ordinary working people. And a social democratic alternative to neo-liberal Thatcherism was/is undoubtedly a comprise worth making. I even supported Labour for a very short while under Tony Blair’s leadership, even after he scrapped Clause 4 ffs.

But despite always being prepared to compromise in the struggle to achieve social justice there is one thing which I will never comprise on, ever, and that is with regards to the actual goal of achieving social justice. When Tony Blair made it abundantly clear that he wasn’t in the least bit interested in achieving that goal and he changed the Labour Party from a social democratic party into a neoliberal Thatcherite party, I ceased to support it. And I wasn’t the only one – just one of Labour’s lost millions.

I then saw the Liberal Democrats as the only credible anti- neoliberal party with a social democratic agenda to challenge the other two party’s Thatcherite agenda, and indeed it was under Charles Kennedy. When Nick Clegg became leader of the Liberal Democratics, an event which at the time I considered to be the greatest political disaster to occur in Britain since Tony Blair’s rise to power, it became clear that the LibDems had jumped onto the neoliberal bandwagon.

In May 2010 I went to the polling station and I discovered that the only candidates on my ballot paper (incl local elections) who still stood for social democracy were the Greens, so I voted for them. Not something which I had imagined I would ever do, such was the dire state of British politics.

But throughout the period in which I have supported Labour, the LibDems, and the Greens, it has always been the party which I have supported – never the individual candidates. There are however individual exceptions in the Labour Party which I would consider – for example if Jeremy Corbyn was my MP, I wouldn’t hesitate to vote for him. He’s certainly more of a hindrance to Tony Blair’s New Labour clones than he is an asset to them.

yes I noticed that coincidence to cpt

You think it’s just a coincidence ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTREllOger4

I liked that Lawmanmx

Smash the System !

its ridiculous what we put up with and support really isnt it

What tyres for ernie’s socialist paradise?