[Closed] Carol Thatcher

Not even going there

I'll put the kettle on.

Off to the corner with you!!!!!!!!!

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What's the name of that book? [i]"They **** You Up"[/i] I believe it's called.

I thought he looked like he had been drawn by a young child...

Wonder where Carol Thatcher would have learned to be a racist?

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You can still buy Goliwogs on the Isle of Wight.

I'm reading the Wishing Chair Trilogy to my 4 yo currently, and shifted somewhat uneasily in my seat earlier this week when Chinky's friend (and BTW Chinky's just the name of a Pixie, there is no insinuation he is oriental - I digress) - anyway Chinky's friend Mr Blacky the Golliwog comes to visit.

With the innocence of 4yo's, Mr Blacky was accepted as a name and a golliwog was accepted as 'a sort of soft toy' when I was interrogated.

But, o wise STW, how SHOULD I have handled those questions?

I wouldn't have been reading a story with a golliwog in it to a child - but I condone the actions of the thought police I do

I confess Ive never thought of Maggie as rascist (and yes, Ill be her apologist for many things, but I wouldnt apologise for that)

got anything to illustrate that allegation grumm?

Well she was a supporter of the apartheid regime in S Africa and considered the ANC to be terrorists - that racist enough for ya?

Its interesting that some assume she is racist (and I have no opinion on her whatsoever, i am aware she won the channel 4 thing and of course aware who her mother is) however I will nail my colours to the mast.
Firstly i find it incredible that an individual felt the need to report the comment and I would be staggered if those I chose to surround myself with in what I understand was an informal and friendly environment acted in this way.
On a general note i am disapointed that recently we appear to be held hostage to those that would find "offence" at almost anything and the fact that they (?) feel others need to modify their behaviour to such an extend for those that seek to find offence. I am not for one moment condoning deliberately offending people nor do I condone racist behaviour or language, however our culture seems to be becoming obsessed with correctness and any minor innocent infringement is met with howls of outrage.
Their also seems a double standard, although this is a seperate point, that we can dismiss (in my opinion) slightly more offensive language from members of the royal family yet our public bodies feel the need to overreact on our behalf!

Just my thoughts!

I wouldnt confuse a political stance with racism. At the time Thatcher was being Reagan's best buddy, which would neccesitate agreeing with the US foreign policy stance on engagment with the South African regime.

I still dont see her as racist on the scale of say, Powell, even though she was wrong about her position on SA.

Well she was a supporter of the apartheid regime in S Africa and considered the ANC to be terrorists - that racist enough for ya?

The ANC were terrorists. Amazing how a little reconciliation can erase some people's memories.

Snigle
:o(

apartheid supporter said ANC were marxists (false) and terrorsits (true if you suported the regime and viewed it as legitimate and false if you think they were oppressed and freedom fighters which most people would except snigle and thatcher .....nice company you keep)
claimed britain was being "swamped by people of a different culture"
Views on Europe
Views on Islam and terrorist .. told of fin Lords for her comments iirc
Enough yet?

The ANC were terrorists.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Norman Tebbit was a long standing colleague/ally of hers - a man known for his tolerance and enlightenment. I'm not suggesting she was some kind of nazi - just your average nasty right-wing casual racist.

damned by association now is she?

On a general note i am disapointed that recently we appear to be held hostage to those that would find "offence" at almost anything

Who are the "those" to whom you refer surfer? It was in the green room of a BBC show for which she corresponds and is paid. I think that counts as a workplace and as such, the workplace (or nowhere else for that matter, but I'm not condoning "thought policing" really, I'm not!) is no place for that kind of language.

As for the Royal Family incidents, I don't think a two week vilification in the enlightened media was exactly them being excused or it being "dismissed".

Well when you associate with people like Pinochet, for example, I think being damned by association is probably fair. And surely she is responsible for employing outright bigots in her cabinet?

Who are the "those" to whom you refer surfer? It was in the green room of a BBC show for which she corresponds and is paid. I think that counts as a workplac

I suppose I am refering to those firstly that find this "language" offensive. We are after all talking about a word that is still acceptable in many places, It may or may not be objectionable but the extent to which we villify people for the use of language that was until quiote recently in common use is out of proportion IMO.
I am also criticising individuals who claimed they were offended by this and I suppose my only description of them is that they are unbelievebly "politically correct" and frankly quite wet!
I may be wrong but I understand she likened somebody to a Golliwog, isnt it a bit like likening me to a beanpole? alternatively I am from Liverpool should I recoil in feined "offence" when somebody calls me a scouser?

There are far worse things than a bit of name calling. Which, at the end of the day, is all that the majority of these so called 'racist' incidents are.

Snigle
:o\

I agree with surfer. Overreaction.

What about if she had used the word '****' or 'coon', or 'savage'?. Would that still be a storm in a teacup?

Besides, the main reason there seems to have been a fuss made is that she refused to apologise or admit that there was anything wrong with it.

My suspicion, having seen Carol Thatcher on the telly and being thoroughly unimpressed, is that this was the opportunity they were waiting for to ditch the silly woman.

And while the term "gollywog" has all sorts of racist connotations and I wouldn't use it to or about a human being, I have no problem with the toys of that name that came from a less PC era. Should we not have Teddy Bears, as it is demeaning to wild bears to pretend that they are simple lovable creatures?

I doubt Mrs T was racist, btw - ignorant, no truck with PC, but not racist. And no doubt the people who view the ANC as freedom fighters hold the same view of the IRA/UDF, just for consistency?

I remember seeing G-OLLY on a plane at Filton.

It turned out to be the Robertsons Company Plane.

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/G-OLLY.html

What about if she had used the word '****' or 'coon', or 'savage'?. Would that still be a storm in a teacup?

No it would be more significant, but its testament to how far that we have come that I would struggle to even type the N word. It is a word with far reaching conortations that has now left what most reasonable people would agree is acceptable language.

Besides, the main reason there seems to have been a fuss made is that she refused to apologise or admit that there was anything wrong with it.

From what I can gather she did apologise but I understand was not genuflecting (sp) enough when she did it, part of my point is the fact that rather than letting a silly remark just hang in the air for (I assume) most of those in earshot to dismiss, somebody felt the overiding urge to report it! therefore we must have more money wasted on independent investigations and opportunities to show how the BBC is so painfully PC!

And while the term "gollywog" has all sorts of racist connotations and I wouldn't use it to or about a human being, I have no problem with the toys of that name that came from a less PC era

So the fact that they're a piss-taking caricature of those savages from the colonies is fine is it? Just because it was ok back then, does not make it ok now. You've said it yourself...it has "all sorts of racist connotations" - therefore, why wouldn't you have any problems with the toys?

I may be wrong but I understand she likened somebody to a Golliwog, isnt it a bit like likening me to a beanpole?

No it's not - I don't think anybody finds the term "beanpole" offensive. I'm a bit of shortarse myself and somebody might use it to upset me but in fairness, I can get over that...if somebody with dwarfism was referred to as a "shortarse" I don't think any of us would find that acceptable would we?

alternatively I am from Liverpool should I recoil in feined "offence" when somebody calls me a scouser?

I don't recall anybody using the term "scouser" offensively. Is it any different from people from Newcastle being referred to as Geordies or those from Sunderland calling themsleves "Mackems". Yes, those words can be used in a phrase to upset you...anyway, I digress into semantics here.

I am also criticising individuals who claimed they were offended by this and I suppose my only description of them is that they are unbelievebly "politically correct" and frankly quite wet!

I still don't know who these people are? Is there a "political correctness" society or something? Who the bloody hell are these people policing our language then?

I'm against people who say 'dont rat on someone' or 'we hate grass's' however her co-presenter is an idiot of the highest order. Does he have any tact himself? Couldnt he have said to her 'look I object to that comment' and have asked her to apologise for it? It was said off camera and in private to him. Crass idiot. So he lets it rip into the public domain, puts in a complaint without giving the person the opportunity. Sorry, Ive had people say ill-thought remarks to me and Ive sorted it quietly and they realised etc.

I mean a world in which I can not call a wog a wog, a **** a ****... whatever has the world come to

enlightmement ... feel free to join us.
All are welcome except the ignorant and stupid but we will try and help you get there
Best wishes
PC society

What is it about being right wing and being racist?
Not for a moment am I trying to imply that being right wing makes you racist. But it does seem that the majority of racists prefer right wing politics.
So what is it about the politics they like?

what amuses me is that no-one has a copy of what she actually said, nor the conversation before/after she said it

I've suffered people calling me a german, box head, nazi stormtrooper, german tank commander, nazi salutes etc for years including in the workplace. Should I have complained on the basis of (incorrect) racial sterotyping based on the colour of my skin and hair?

btw, if someone accused me of acting like a scouser I'd be offended

Couldnt he have said to her 'look I object to that comment' and have asked her to apologise for it?

It sounds like he did, and she didn't.

grumm 'sounds like'? How do we know. Would be nice to have known the context etc. Why wasnt this dealt with internally? Doesnt the BBC have any real man-managers?

Someone said **** once in the office. Context was about race and someone got alittle excited. I objected and the person apologised. Case closed.

I think we can be too liberal and need to be alittle more robust in other areas than Policing thought too much.

I may be wrong but I understand she likened somebody to a Golliwog, isnt it a bit like likening me to a beanpole?

No it's not - I don't think anybody finds the term "beanpole" offensive. I'm a bit of shortarse myself and somebody might use it to upset me but in fairness, I can get over that...if somebody with dwarfism was referred to as a "shortarse" I don't think any of us would find that acceptable would we?

To answer your points in reverse order then i agree the latter is offensive and unnaceptable.
You are now jumping to the conclusion that because you perceive that the term "beanpole" is non offensive to you that you can empathise with every other person that has or will be called "beanpole" and generalise that the term is therefore innofensive.
in reality offence in perceived not meant, if I use a pejorative term to describe somebody is the offence that I meant to offend or that offense was felt?
If its the former then Thatcher has explained that no offence was meant so is that the end of the matter? if its the latter then the offence can easily be judged by the method you have used above to judge that I should not be offended by being called a "beanpole" (I am not by the way)
Even more ridiculous in this example is that the person was "offended" by one persons likening of another person to a Golliwog! Effectively offense by proxy!

I don't recall anybody using the term "scouser" offensively. Is it any different from people from Newcastle being referred to as Geordies or those from Sunderland calling themsleves "Mackems". Yes, those words can be used in a phrase to upset you...anyway, I digress into semantics here.

You appear to want it both ways here. The word does not offend but as with the above words it is the connortations that they have. I work in London regualrly and the standing joke amongst my peers is that related to the theft of car stereos. Of course it is a joke which is riduclous given my position etc but it is only funny because there is widespread view that Liverpool people are often criminals. It is not the term scouser it is the negative conortations that can go with it.

her co-presenter is an idiot of the highest order

Why so is that then hora? Because he found her language despicable and reported her? If she's working for and being paid by the BBC (otherwise you and me ultimately) then he was damn right to report her. She was given the chance to unreservedly apologise - though I don't understand what a reserved apology would have been..."well, I'm sorry this time but I reserve the right to have another go next week". She's obviously part of the brigade who are obsessed with the encroaching enlightenment that is supposedly killing off our language - isn't it terrible that we can't use those words in public anymore...just terrible I tell you.

Stoner; do you get paid to be Thatcher's apologist?

Maybe there's a job for you...

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html ]Cameron apologises for Thatcher Apartheid policies.[/url]

Funny how now, even her own party are desperately trying to distance themselves from the vile, far-right-wing bigoted old bitch.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1578377.stm ]Even Hesselschwein thought her comments could encourage racism.[/url]

[url= http://www.wwwords.co.uk/pdf/validate.asp?j=forum&vol=48&issue=1&year=2006&article=13_Maisuria_FORUM_48_1_web ]

Thatcher remarked on a ‘World in Action’ television programme
shown in January 1978 that ‘people are really rather afraid that this country
might be swamped by people with a different culture’.

[url= http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/U/untold/programs/riot/timeline.html ]

17 April On a trip to India, prime minister Margaret Thatcher defends the government's Nationality Bill, which will further limit the rights of people from the black Commonwealth to come to Britain, and will make Britain the only country in the world where being born within its borders does not automatically confer nationality. She says immigration needs to be limited. The Times of India is unimpressed. Thatcher, it declares, 'has done more harm to race relations in Britain than any other post-war leader there'.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet ]As for her friendship with Pinochet...[/url]

Sorry but you just can't claim that calling someone a 'beanpole' or a 'scouser' is in the same order of magnitude as using racial stereotypes born out of a history of 400 years of slavery and dehumanising black people.

[i]She was given the chance to unreservedly apologise[/i]

[b]ON AIR.[/b]
In the public stocks FFS. Why couldnt her co-presenter be a man?
Beleive me, I dont like the woman but I'm sick of our media. Scraping up anything and flooding their front pages with as much doom as possible. How much mileage can they ring out of this one?

Why so is that then hora? Because he found her language despicable and reported her? If she's working for and being paid by the BBC (otherwise you and me ultimately) then he was damn right to report her. She was given the chance to unreservedly apologise - though I don't understand what a reserved apology would have been..."well, I'm sorry this time but I reserve the right to have another go next week". She's obviously part of the brigade who are obsessed with the encroaching enlightenment that is supposedly killing off our language - isn't it terrible that we can't use those words in public anymore...just terrible I tell you.

Your making a huge leap here!
I dont think her language is "despicable" just misguided and a bit silly. The fact that a great deal of our money will be diverted to investigate a "non event" is the criminal act here.
The words we are refering to here will die out as the particularly nasty ones above have. We dont need an overly sanctimonious BBC to squander resources helping it on its way!

BTW -for supporters of Maggie, this must rank as one of the most disgraceful and disgusting outright lies ever told by a British PM

Lady Thatcher thanked her old friend for being an ally during the 1982 Falklands War - and for "bringing democracy to Chile"...

She added: "I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect, elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down."

He pretty much did the exact opposite, and murdered and tortured thousands of people in the process. I suppose when your mother is buddies with someone like that, you can see why calling someone a golliwog hardly seems crime of the century.

Thatcher was immediately challenged about the remark, but apologised only yesterday and dismissed the comment as a "joke".

http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment/Golliwog---39joke39-may.4943436.jp

Surfer, I can't believe you are likening the use of racist language to simple name calling. I can sort of see where you're coming from about the difference between perception and intent...any intelligent person can judge when terms are used to cause offence or whether it's simple banter. However, this should not be used when it comes to terms such as "coon", "****", "****", "raghead" etc etc. Enlightened society has decided that racist terms such as those we've been discussing are unacceptable, especially in broadcast or written media. Comparing and contrasting them with things like "shortarse", "beanpole" is not really apples with apples is it?

You appear to want it both ways here. The word does not offend but as with the above words it is the connortations that they have.

I assure you I most certainly don't. Everytime there's a discussion here about racist language, there are those (you seemingly amongst them) that want to put every pejorative term into the same basket. If you find it upsetting that you're being referred to as a "thieving scouser" (or something along those lines...I assume that's the term to which you refer), then you should ask them to stop. But comparing it to CT referring to the tennis player (I assume it's Tsonga) as looking like a golliwog is in a different category. I bet she wouldn't have said it to his face had he been in the green room with her.

Commrade Grumm I think you need to chill out, maybe go on a march and make a difference.

I dont think her language is "despicable" just misguided and a bit silly. The fact that a great deal of our money will be diverted to investigate a "non event" is the criminal act here.

Well, I find it despicable that someone, in 2009, would use such language. Forgive me, but I thought the term "golliwog" is more or less accepted as unacceptable in enlightened society. Or perhaps there's a "political correctness" dictionary to which I can refer?

Well I am ill in bed at the mo so no marching for me.

However, these are not nutty left wing conspiracy theories about Pinochet and Maggie - check it out if you want.

grumm, slightly different on BBC's ownsite. Doesnt read as lynch-mobbie to me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7868401.stm

Tsonga? This bloke?

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I'm struggling to see the similarity, actually.

one of the most disgraceful and disgusting outright lies ever told by a British PM

cf also;

I have abolished boom and bust

I have saved the world

British jobs for British workers

etc. etc. etc. Stop wallowing in the past and take a look at all the Brown lies in the here an now

Lets try and stick to the topic Flash...can't you just create another post if you want to have your daily pop at Brown, ta.

What about if she had used the word '****' or 'coon', or 'savage'?. Would that still be a storm in a teacup?

Besides, the main reason there seems to have been a fuss made is that she refused to apologise or admit that there was anything wrong with it.

No, it wouldnt have been a storm in a teacup, but from the little info we have I dont see any reason for her to apologise other than to the person involved if they are offended - she simply stated that he (in the context of discussing his hair at the time) looked like a cartoon character. She didn't say he WAS a golliwog, or say "look at that golliwog". To people of my age, golliwogs were nothing more than cartoon characters with no sinister meanings behind them, girls had toy golliwogs just as they had white toy girls and boys to play with, they were never seen as worse etc in any way. Maybe it is from this background that I see this as a vast overreaction, and maybe those who remember golliwogs as some sort of racial insult might find it upsetting, but I'd suggest wrongly. I dont know how far back it goes, certainly my mother who is in her 60s doesnt ever remember golliwogs being indicative of some sort of raial insult or indicator of slavery etc. I'd question the motives behind the person complaining, personally.

yes cf what a sterling defence of tory policies & Thatcher (you lover her don't you?) that is.

Keep trying to hijack though someone might fall for it

Flash did Brown's lies involve murdering and torturing thousands of people in the name of 'democracy'?

If Thatch' had said [i][b]that Tsonga looks like a right f*ckin 'spearchucker'[/i][/b] then I could see it as offensive. Context. Lets not forget she is from an older/more inbred generation..

I assure you I most certainly don't. Everytime there's a discussion here about racist language, there are those (you seemingly amongst them) that want to put every pejorative term into the same basket. If you find it upsetting that you're being referred to as a "thieving scouser" (or something along those lines...I assume that's the term to which you refer), then you should ask them to stop

I dont want to put them all together and I made what I consider to be a distinction a few post back between words that thankfully are disapearing from use. The issues arise when bodies (the BBC in this case) want to include additional ones and become disproportinately indignant on our behalf. This becomes an emotive issue given the unique way they are funded.
I understand the person wasnt called a Golliwog but was likened to one.
I explained earlier that I was not offended by the two terms that I mentioned (and its usually more subtle than you have put it by the way!) however I feel your rush to be offended on peoples behalf is an over reaction and is a typical response to those trying too hard to be indignant and be seen to be a paragon of liberalism.
Racial stereotypes are dying out fortunatley, I suspect the BBC's self serving efforts will only re-awaken an unfortunate one to an audience that didnt even know it existed.

[i]Flash did Brown's lies involve murdering and torturing thousands of people in the name of 'democracy'?[/i]

No but his lies do involve murdering the future of a once great nation, all in order to fuel his shortlived economic bubble

slightly OT but just love how everyone including the Unions feasted off of the Government Miners compensation payments. Even Scargills Union took a cut. FFS. A final payoff.

no offence to the Greek STW massive!!

Those last two posts made no sense to me whatsoever 😕

"But comparing it to CT referring to the tennis player (I assume it's Tsonga) as looking like a golliwog is in a different category"

According to R4 you can't be further from the truth!

It was Andy Murrey and slightly curly hair! You know the scottish guy.
She's a stupid cow, fair enough, but mountain from a mole hill anyone?

Most importantly though. Would you? I would. Just to tick that box.

R4? The BBC refused to release the name of the person, didn't they?

seems to me like her 'collegues' used the situation to get her sacked.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss what the silly cow said, tbh. just another example of how money and privilege don't necessarily equate to intelligence.

Speshpaul; I did think of Andy Murray myself, actually! But are we sure? I mean, I've seen no confirmed reports as to which player it actually was...

I don't really blame Adrian Chiles for wanting to get rid of CT. I would do the same thing...

Flashy, back on topic, please. Don't make excuses for the bitch.

Please hurry up and die, Maggie... please.

R4 just before 9 this morning if you want to look it up.
Adrian Childs was the other person in the conversation, although he may not have been the person who reported the "offence"

hora - Member
Most importantly though. Would you? I would. Just to tick that box.

Can we get some psychiatric help for this man, please?

he is beyond help padded cell no internet access no visitors

don't really blame Adrian Chiles for wanting to get rid of CT. I would do the same thing..

Dont disagree however it seems spineless to me, if its him of course.

According to R4 you can't be further from the truth!

Ooops...point taken there. Jesus, she really is as stupid as she sounds then.

however I feel your rush to be offended on peoples behalf is an over reaction and is a typical response to those trying too hard to be indignant and be seen to be a paragon of liberalism.

I'm in no rush to be "offended on peoples' behalf". However, shouldn't we all be offended when racist terms are used by anyone? If I was in a group of white people in a pub and one of them used a racist term, I'd be offended for sure, feel indignant too, and let the person know. Why is that an over-reaction?

The issues arise when bodies (the BBC in this case) want to include additional ones and become disproportinately indignant on our behalf

The BBC is simply reacting to the moral zeitgeist of our times. Obviously, I'm guessing here, but I can be sure she wouldn't have used that term if there had been a black person in the room. And saying he "is" a golliwog or is "like" a golliwog isn't that different - it's the use of the word that's being debated.

Racial stereotypes are dying out fortunatley, I suspect the BBC's self serving efforts will only re-awaken an unfortunate one to an audience that didnt even know it existed.

"Golliwog" isn't exactly a racial stereotype...it's a word for a toy from more ignorant times when we thought it was fun to laugh at the "darkies" from the colonies. If some people had forgotten it existed or or didn't know about it, then it's worth a reminder every so often that this kind of "banter" is unacceptable.

FFS, there'll be a call for the return of the Black and White Minstrel show next.

Don't make excuses for the bitch.

You've just inferred she is an animal, surely that makes you as bad as a racist?

Are [u]GOLLIES[/u] still acceptable as kids toys, or do you risk "justified" violence and/or your kids taken into care?

I don't see what the fuss is about. It's not as if, she's pinned a yellow star on someone, thrown a brick through the window of their shop and then looted it, and marched them off to a gas chamber is it now.

Yes I would. Same with Janet Street Porter. something soo wrong about her (but sexy)

Rueters are now saying that it was NOT murray.

But lets face it if she did use that term to discribe a person of colour in the workplace, then she should be taken to task by of her employers.
But i don't know of many workplaces where that includes being sacked pretty much on the spot. (but i guess she might be a "contractor")

Yes I would. Same with Janet Street Porter. something soo wrong about her (but sexy)

What? Carol Thatch or JSP??? That's so wrong.

Snigle
:o(

WipeOut - Member
I don't see what the fuss is about. It's not as if, she's pinned a yellow star on someone, thrown a brick through the window of their shop and then looted it, and marched them off to a gas chamber is it now.

WipeOut - Member
I don't see what the fuss is about. It's not as if, she's pinned a yellow star on someone, thrown a brick through the window of their shop and then looted it, and marched them off to a gas chamber is it now.

surely irony I hope anyway
you realise all the above started with words , derogatory ones, mainly in Nazi rhetoric that led to the above dont you?

Irony, as I know to well how the genocide began with words.

Irony, as nothing was done when it become more than words.

Wipeout, I can't see a throw-away comment by Cawol Fatcher starting a genocide.

Snigle
🙄

'Gael Monfils not Tsonga'.

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[img] [/img]

Maybe it's just one of those things that you think, but it's best not to say.