Carbon. Makes you stop and think.

and the warning signs are what then? – not a troll seriously what

Cracks for example. My carbon had a crack at the bb/stay. Opinions varied from it’s just laquer to bin it. A crack in exactly the same place on a steel frame was identified and repaired no doubts.
Another example. I hit a massive pothole in a race. The wheel distorted and rubbed right through the laquer exposing the weave beneath. Again with steel and even alloy if you do something like that it’s easier to guage the damage. Crashing and putting the cranks into the stays causes similar problems.
Once in a race a marshals car suddenly stopped. I went into the back and over the roof. The wheels and forks were fine, but the frame bent at the headtube. I’ve seen similar with carbon frames, but they seem to just bounce off. So they’re either bloody strong or can hide the damage.
But in the past the easiest way of spotting a problem was from lifting paint.
Like I say happy to race on carbon, my bars, stem, post and chainset are all carbon.
What’s annoying if I didn’t have any racing aspirations, I’d just get a Master no prolems.

Again with steel and even alloy if you do something like that it’s easier to guage the damage

Easier to think you’ve gauged the damage IMO…

So they’re either bloody strong or can hide the damage

Usually a bit of both but mostly the former IMO.

I think part of the problem here is cost/price. As has been commented above, Arvensen (I think it was) crashed his race bike in the Vuelta yesterday, it broke into many pieces and he was given a new one to carry on the race with.

It is perfectly possible, with a significant ammount of cash, to buy a bike very similar to Arvensen’s bike. The critical point is that most of us are unlikely to be able to replace it in the event of a crash. Hence I tend to agree with the perspective of one of the Scottish Cycling coaches I have some contact with who recently commented that ‘the only reason to ride carbon, is when someone else is paying for it!’.

The wheel distorted and rubbed right through the laquer exposing the weave beneath. Again with steel and even alloy if you do something like that it’s easier to guage the damage.

I’m not sure what’s difficult to assess about “is it just the gelcoat that’s worn through, or can I see any damage to the fibres underneath?” Bearing in mind that the top layer on most carbon frames is largely cosmetic, so you’d have to go through that before you’d actually have any problems.

Are carbon frames that much lighter? Looking at the On One site their 456C is only 100g less than my rockhopper ali frame. Not comparing like with like, but even so.

I think part of the problem here is cost/price. As has been commented above, Arvensen (I think it was) crashed his race bike in the Vuelta yesterday, it broke into many pieces and he was given a new one to carry on the race with

Which is an issue if you crash lots and the carbon frame is a lot more expensive than the alternative. The thing is, many of the carbon doubters seem to be happy to ride ti frames, which are more expensive than carbon and just as likely (if not more so) to be terminally damaged in a crash than a carbon one.

I’ve trashed (all carbon):
A De Rosa Avant – rear stays broke, taxi home.
An 08 Orca – top of seat stays crack, wobbled home.
An 09 Orca – crunched to bits by a mincing Mom in a puke wagon, staggered home.
An Onyx – forks fell appart, ambulance home.

None of my Ali/steel/titanium MTB’s have ever busted.

Not comparing like with like

The most useful comment in that post.

The problem is that mass-market carbon is a bit new.

And cyclists are a bit traditional. MTBers especially (BMXers are worse though) and they are scared of the new-fangled plasic bikes. They can’t see past metal frames.

Now I’ve been using carbon on and off (Mainly on) for 30 years now and it doesn’t bother me in the slightest…. I’m just wondering than they’re gonna start mixing it with other stuff like Kevlar and Boron, like the 2 fishing rods I’ve got in the garage are…. 🙂

by ‘keeping an eye’ for crack propagation of a carbon frame, you are only viewing a small fraction of the possible failure modes. I like carbon, but until there is a way to properly maintain or monitor the fracture behaviour of it, I’m hesitant to use it in any critical components (e.g. frame).

With steels and alu, you cannot see the effects of strain hardening/microcracking very easily unless you chop it up and put it under a SEM or AFM. Often the impact of a crash is enough to wreck the used frame, before any visible or noticeable cracks appear to the rider. Damage is not always visible to the naked eye.

My point is that monitoring damage is a difficult task, and then taking a lifing estimate based on the damage you can only see from eye, is largely unreliable for any material.

Other thing to remember is that it’s a beach to recycle/ reuse CFRP. Quite often it is burnt and that produces horrid chemicals. Stick to steel, the manufacturing route is one of the most energy efficient of any material, if you want to be eco-friendly.

Hardly a scientific test of course but carbon is a lot stronger than you might think…

Theres a better one of 2 Scott Genius’ or ransoms can’t wite remember being used in a sword fight kinda way, the aluminium one comes of significanly worse.

Easton offer a lifetime warranty on their carbon bars.
They do a 5 year warranty on their aluminium ones.

Cos the carbon ones are much stronger.

anyone with a phobia probably shouldn;t look here

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

anyone with a phobia probably shouldn;t look here

What I’m taking away from that is that if you end up in hospital after crashing your bike, there’s a good chance you’ll also bust the bike.

I’m just wondering than they’re gonna start mixing it with other stuff like Kevlar and Boron

kevlar in them cheese grater bikes [/url]

Or there’s flax
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/museeuw-flax-bike-launch-15198/

Trek did an OCLV Boron Madone about 2004, big big money for little saving!

Tomthumb, I didn’t know that, thanks! But eventually someone will think of something like this only becasue it looks so good if anything!

That’s a Daiwa Whisker Kevlar. Lovely stuff. 🙂

The Shimano Triple X rod I’ve got in the garage is years old now, but it looks stunning. I can just imagine a carbon frame with a kevlar overwrap just like it. Mmmmmmmmmmm carbon-kevlar……… 🙂

Peter, your C456 has kevlar in the downtube.

Ragley carbon bars also have kevlar covering. Which is probably why they are a bit more flexy than other carbon bars. (outer layers are more important to stiffness).

Njee, Boron never really took off in fishing either. Very strong and stiff, but heavy…… Not as in you’d notice it, but when the difference is between a 13ft match rod weighing 7.2oz and 6.9oz, which sounds best??? 🙂

Peter, your C456 has kevlar in the downtube.

REALLY???? 😀

Tell me more! Why don’t they make a big noise about that then?

Edited above to add ragley details too.

Pretty sure that when they announced it they were first made. But tbh it’s not that unusual in composites to mix carbon, glass and kevlar so it’s not a big deal really.

Aww. I gotta stop looking at fishing tackle now. Ya buggers!

Team Daiwa SR3 13ft match rod now down to 5.3oz. Ye gods that’s light….. 😯

But mine are not much more than that and one’s getting on for 20 years old 🙂

EDIT
Sorry. I can get rather excited about carbon. Sad I know. But then some drool over 853 steel I suppose….

Easton offer a lifetime warranty on their carbon bars.

The guidance that came with my MTB recommended replacing the carbon (Easton) bar every couple of years or so…

Oh and I think boron was used in racquets too. Along with titanium meshes.

Racquets are another sport where you get very high priced composites for the latest and best models but it is possible to get some reasonably priced lower spec or last years models. But they are a very good example of somewhere that composites are now the ONLY choice due to weight, stiffness, feel and tune-abilily. Also like fishing rods.

The difference with bikes is there is soooo much more to the frame structure and the system as a whole – tyres, wheels with spokes, suspension, bars, stems, cranks etc etc and then geometry and triangulation etc etc. The material differences are buried well below them all.

All i am going to say is just get out and ride your carbon bike instead of worrying. I’ve just got some Easton Haven bars this morning – I feel guilty about spending so much (even though they cost me £65 due to vouchers) as I could have bought some cheaper alloy ones which are 100g more for a lot less.

One thing to remember is you can bend and twist a metal frame out of shape with a minor incident (riding or otherwise) and not realise your geometry or alignment is out of wack. You won’t do that with a carbon frame. If I want thin tubes and lots of flex I will go with steel. If I want something tough but light and still compliant I choose carbon that is built strong not lightest.

All i am going to say is just get out and ride your carbon bike instead of worrying.

I do thanks. It’s very nice. It’s mostly like a bike, but lighter and a bit comfier.

Mine’s got a few knocks and scrapes now. It’s fine. 🙂

Really all frames should be made of porcelain, that way you can know for sure when its broken.

Or you could buy a carbon frame from a manufacturer you trust to build a frame from carbon which is stronger than their Alu frames, cos they don’t want the bad rep.

CF doesn’t just lend to lightness. It allows for more exact reinforcement at points of failure. It also has far superior response characteristics i.e. for any given spring rating, the CF component will spring back faster, which generally adds to performance/ responsiveness/ feel.

The only gripe I have with my (3 year old) Ibis is that the rubberised finish wore off various parts :-/

Useful test of whether it’s just a paint chip or something serious is to do a tap test on the area. If the sound changes around the affected area, it’s probably delaminated.

Failing that, send it to me and I’ll get it NDT/x ray inspected for you, although it might cost more than a new frame 😉

Just looking at that fishing rod pic something has struck me (scuse the pun).

Bamboo Bike, Bamboo fishing rod. Check
Steel Bike, Steel Fishing rod. Check
Alloy Bike, Alloy fishing rod. Check
Carbon bike, Carbon Fishing rod. Check

There is something missing though, have bikes ever been made from Fibreglass?
Never seen one. Strange as Glass fibre fishing rods had great properties and where very tough.

glass fibre sledge hammer handle – tough and shock absorbing

Solid too.

Boron only really good for compression ,costs around £400kg and The tennis racket had very very little boron in it.Certain glass fibres have some properties that are better than carbon .
Klein also used Boron in their aluminium frames