Car horsepower…is it just me…

You need to look past bhp and i think somebody already mentioned how much modern cars weigh earlier on, if you look at bhp per ton then a lot of modern stuff certainly hot hatches aren’t actually all that different to cars from the mid 80’s to early 90’s 😉

http://www.autosnout.com/Cars-Bhp-Per-Ton-List.php

as per stw usual its turned into a cock waving driving trolls competition on both sides of the cherry on the cake

Anything about fast cars or driving always goes that way with the same old predictable crap being posted by the usual people 😆

Why shouldn’t he get out of the way? He’s not the police, so stop policing the roads

You appear confused, petal. Surely those that are flashing are the ones who are doing the policing, no? I just expect to be able to move along the motorway at a perfectly legal 70mph.

I do find it amusing overtaking a run of lorries on dual carriageways when a car comes from miles back at warp 9 then slams on the anchors 6″ away from my rear bumper. I pull into the ‘slow’ lane as soon as is safe, they then stamp on the loud pedal to only get stuck behind the next car in front!

Notwithstanding the tailgating which is lame, It is possible, is it not, that the other driver just enjoys the sensation of accelerating? When I used to a own a pretty fast car (BMW M135i – a good example of the arms war hot hatch that this thread is about) I loved reaching the end of a 50mph limit on the motorway and flooring it. It’s super childish and a bit irresponsible I know, but for me it was never about getting somewhere quicker or willy waving.

God I miss that car.

Probably, I used to do the same with my old Mini*! Except that was coming out of 30 limits as the aerodynamics meant it got a bit sluggish above 65…

* ‘slightly’ tuned 998cc but looked like a crap beater. Really, really miss that car 😥

molgrips – Member
believe me, that’s ‘king scary on motorways and dual carriageways when you’re trying to overtake other vehicles which are maybe doing 10mph or less than you are
Well don’t bloody do it then. Just chill out and get there later. Totally missed the point!

And you don’t understand that the one thing I’m not is impatient. I’m driving cars for a living, and I make sure I get the vehicle to its destination safely and without risking getting any penalties.
I’m driving roughly six or seven hundred miles a week, possibly more; one car last week involved 350 miles in two stages, that’s just one, and I’m now using cruise control set at around 75mph, that’s 70 on the satnav, so I’m going faster than a lot of other traffic sticking to what their speedo says, but when you cannot get up to the actual legal speed limit on a motorway, and you’re struggling to pass a line of artics clogging the inside lane, with one or two in the passing lane going barely slower than you are, do you honestly think being forced to crawl along at less than sixty, just because of your obsession with going a little over the speed limit in order to pass slower traffic is reasonable?
Do you imagine for one second the Police do that?
The Merc SL350 I drove had the cruise control at 75, just because I could, it was a lovely day, and I didn’t want to get the car to its drop-off point too quickly, it was too nice a drive.
However, I had the means to gently get past slower traffic easily and safely, due the lack of stupid artificial limits.
You do realise motorway and dual carriageway speed limits were set when cars had drum brakes and skinny cross-ply tyres, and weren’t particularly safe over about sixty, dont you?
The stopping distances in the Highway Code haven’t been changed since then either, cars have vastly improved brakes and tyres, but posted speed limits don’t reflect the technology in modern vehicles.

Assuming there was no reason not to drive at the posted limit (e.g. traffic, weather, etc.) would you fail a driving test for sticking to 35mph on a 50mph road?

Failing to maintain appropriate speed is a fault. That includes driving at slow speed without good reason, not attempting to reach the limit, slowing down without good reason and making slow progress through teh gears (ie, accelerating slowly) Those all come under the same category, so if you get 3 faults for any combination of them you fail. (unless things have changed since I last looked it up)

Driving just under the speed limit all the time will add up, possibly a minor fault if doing say 25 in a 30 and if this happens 3-4 times then yes, it could be marked a serious.

Going 35 in a 50, for example on a bypass for a mile or two will be a serious just by itself. This is assuming that the road is clear, weather good etc and that the speed limit is achevable and safe.

You do realise motorway and dual carriageway speed limits were set when cars had drum brakes and skinny cross-ply tyres, and weren’t particularly safe over about sixty, dont you?
The stopping distances in the Highway Code haven’t been changed since then either, cars have vastly improved brakes and tyres, but posted speed limits don’t reflect the technology in modern vehicles.

We are still short of the one major upgrade needed CZ, it’s the part located between the seat and the pedals, reaction times are not much faster, observation isn’t much better and traffic density has significantly increased. I remember some friends of my Grandparents who owned a large shop in Newcastle taking their new Jag down the new M1 to London in a time that would make people amazed these days. Even if you went at midnight you would struggle to get a clean run.
I was back in the UK last summer and hired a van & car for some trips and in the end it was just like I remember full of idiots with poor awareness and decision making skills, desperate to arrive 5 minutes earlier.

Most of the people on the roads only had a limited amount of formal driver education, mostly in something like a 1l Corsa and have never been taught how to drive on motorways or deal with most of the situation that they will face on the roads. That is before we get to driving something that has some actual power, perhaps a motorbike style rating/license where you can’t get above x unless you do more training.

I drive a Fiat Panda. Got a turbo and everything. Crazy power ratios…

I overtook someone last week. Been planning it since April.

CountZero, still bot seeing anything in your post other than impatience.

You could argue that the speed limit is too low, and that is a valid debate. But complaining about having to stick to a law simply because you are impatient, that’s less valid.

You’re being paid for your time too, by the sound of it. Most of us aren’t so you have even less to moan about.

Funny thing is, most of these modern BHP figures are all but unachieveable, even if you drive like a nutter.

Off the top of my head the engine will have its torque capped (and therefore not give the advertised power) if you have any, some or all of the following……

Coolant too hot.
Coolant too cold. (it’s a very narrow band ~30 degrees on most engines)
Catalyst/DPF at the wrong temp (high/low).
In the wrong gear lose lots (some cars you’ll be losing near enough 50% in first gear! Some cars will cap torque in 1-4 of 6)
Ambient air too hot/cold.
Steering input of more than a couple of degrees.
Electrical system load too high.
Injectors warm/cold/worn.
Fuel temperature or quality out of a very narrow band.
Altitude too high (air pressure/O2 content out of range)
Brake system warm/cold.
Traction control (most modern systems will be restricting torque long before you get to the wheelspin/sliding across the road scenario, many more you can’t actually switch off, you just think you are.)
Then you’ve got all the internal controls to think about…….

So you’ve paid for an extra 150 bhp and even when you are asking for it, you’ll probably only see half of it…….. pretty much the only time the engine will see the headline figure is on a test bed or dyno. Or on a dead straight german motorway with the planets aligned to within a couple of mm.

Well my current car has around 450 hp. Way over double anything I have ever owned but life’s short and I always wanted to own a big V8 at least once. It’s far more than I really need of course and it can be quite intimidating at times especially in the wet when it can spin its rear tyres quite easily. I don’t go over the speed limit if I can avoid it but the sheer pick up from stop and the V8 roar is totally grin inducing – yes I am a bit juvenile. I absolutely love it! Makes driving feel like an occasion and experience rather than just a means of getting somewhere.

Safety has only a little to do with the car (if it’s a modern car) but is more about how you drive them I reckon.

I would speed limit cars to whatever applys on that road, it would only bother nobheads.

Three pages of confirmation, well done gents, vroom, vroom.

If you are doing 70 overtaking a lorry over taking another lorry there is nothing in that to say you should jump out of the way

Unless you failed to observe the faster car already in that lane about to overtake you as you pulled out to overtake the second lorry. From a driving test perspective, I distinctly remember that doing anything avoidable that would force another car to change direction or speed was on shaky ground, unless you’re slowing down to turn off a road.

Zokes: When did anyone suggest pulling out to force someone to slow down? The situation people seemed to be discussing was car A already out in the overtaking lane, actually overtaking slower vehicles, when car B catches up and driver B expects driver A to slow down and pull into a gap in the slower traffic so driver B can go past.

ghostlymachine

Funny thing is, most of these modern BHP figures are all but unachieveable, even if you drive like a nutter.

Off the top of my head the engine will have its torque capped (and therefore not give the advertised power) if you have any, some or all of the following……

Few cars will have all of the safety / management features you listed and any that do will allow some or all of them to be turned off. Even with those electronic governors modern cars still benefit from small low inertia turbos, traction control,wider tyres, better suspension, brakes etc.

So you’ve paid for an extra 150 bhp and even when you are asking for it, you’ll probably only see half of it…….. pretty much the only time the engine will see the headline figure is on a test bed or dyno. Or on a dead straight german motorway with the planets aligned to within a couple of mm.

If you’ve paid for 150bhp extra, it’s still 150bhp more than the car with 150bhp less. The lesser car also has to overcome parasitic drivetrain loss and electronic safety aids. Manufacturers always quote BHP/KW at the crank. This isn’t news.

Few cars will have all of the safety / management features you listed and any that do will allow some or all of them to be turned off.

Anything less than ~5 years old will have most of them, or other controls that have the same net effect, almost all you can’t switch off, they are embedded into the ECU and stop the engine from destroying itself, or blowing the guts of the emissions system all over the road. Of the ones i’ve listed, Traction control is the one you *might* be able to switch off, or at least reduce the effect of significantly.

If you’ve paid for 150bhp extra, it’s still 150bhp more than the car with 150bhp less.

Well no, it’s not. The car with 150 bhp less will have a relatively lower stressed engine/gearbox, with far more margin. Will also have far wider limits on the various restrictions. Like fuel quality, ambient air, coolant temp, injector condition and so on. So when you ask for the torque, you’ll get most of it. Or at least, a far larger percentage of it. So you’ve paid for 150 extra, in reality, most of the time, you’ll get an extra 75. Ish.

The lesser car also has to overcome parasitic drivetrain loss and electronic safety aids. Manufacturers always quote BHP/KW at the crank. This isn’t news.

And this really really isn’t what i’m talking about.

I know what you mean, but isn’t that a £40k car ? ….not very ordinary surely.. ?

There’s lots about though and pretty attainable due to good PCP / lease deals. When you can drop £30k on a poshish Golf / Octaivia they almost look good value!

When did anyone suggest pulling out to force someone to slow down? The situation people seemed to be discussing was car A already out in the overtaking lane, actually overtaking slower vehicles, when car B catches up and driver B expects driver A to slow down and pull into a gap in the slower traffic so driver B can go past.

Your job involves creating primary school exam questions, right…

😉

Hurt my head reading that.

Not convinced that all this power just balances out the extra weight. Nor do you need to have ridiculously deep pockets to afford a super saloon.

The new focus RS is 31k and goes 0-60 in 4.7 seconds. Thats supercar performance from not so long ago..in a ford

There are times where standing on the loud pedal is an option to avoid a collision.

That may be theoretically true but in 30y of driving and not a single crash it’s not something I’ve ever encountered personally[/quote]

Either you’ve been very lucky or do twelve miles a year. I’ve had five in as many years. In three cases I was stationary and someone’s either ploughed into the back of me (twice – one emergency stop, I had left sufficient braking distance and the guy behind me hadn’t; and one where I was waiting to turn onto a roundabout, had been stationary for several seconds and someone rear-ended me, probably sending a text or something), or oncoming (hump-backed bridge, boy racer came over it like his head was on fire, ricocheted off the wall and into the side of me). The other two I wasn’t even in the car, first was some dappy bint who side-swiped me in ASDA car park swinging out of a space (and tried to drive off, unfortunately for her I was ten yards away and put a stop to that); and the other parked outside my house, some dingbat pulled out from the other side of the road without looking and the car “making progress” down the lane took the side of my car off. Next time it goes to the garage I’m going to ask them to have it demagnetised.

But anyway. I’ll give you an example. Few years back, going straight through a lights-controlled crossroads. Guy coming from the left jumped the red light at speed. If I’d done nothing he’d have hit my rear quarter, if I’d stopped he’d have t-boned me. Couldn’t swerve due to oncoming traffic, so I booted it and he missed me.

Not at 70mph I grant you, and far from a common occurrence. Point is though, an extra burst of speed gives you one more option to get out of trouble, and with the number of nobbers on the road you sometimes need all the options you can get.

ghostlymachine
Well no, it’s not. The car with 150 bhp less will have a relatively lower stressed engine/gearbox, with far more margin. Will also have far wider limits on the various restrictions. Like fuel quality, ambient air, coolant temp, injector condition and so on. So when you ask for the torque, you’ll get most of it. Or at least, a far larger percentage of it. So you’ve paid for 150 extra, in reality, most of the time, you’ll get an extra 75. Ish.

Feel free to give examples here.

There are plenty on here already.

Point is though, an extra burst of speed gives you one more option to get out of trouble, and with the number of nobbers on the road you sometimes need all the options you can get.

Unfortunately, it’s also the nobbers who get to play with cars that have the extra burst of speed. So people like you need even more speed to avoid your red-light-jumping “friend”, but then that would be available to everyone too…

…seems like a bit of a viscous circle to me.

Thick and cloying? Sounds about right.

Miaow! 🙂

ghostlymachine

There are plenty on here already.

No I mean an example of cars, same make and model with the 150bhp discrepancy you described which illustrate this 75bhp loss .

When did anyone suggest pulling out to force someone to slow down?

Middle lane driver, much?

The default position on any road in the UK is the left-hand most lane. If there is a safe space to do so, you should always pull back into it. Assuming the driver didn’t “pull out” to the outside lane, then they must already have been there.

Roads work much better without people deliberately impeding the flow of traffic, regardless of whether they think they are in the right or not.

Roads work much better without people deliberately impeding the flow of traffic, regardless of whether they think they are in the right or not.

with any volume of traffic, motorways actually work much better when you impose speed averaging cameras as they cut out the 70-zero-70-zero stop start driving that you get when you get people trying to push through slower traffic.

with any volume of traffic, motorways actually work much better when you impose speed averaging cameras as they cut out the 70-zero-70-zero stop start driving that you get when you get people trying to push through slower traffic.

Not with any volume of traffic, surely? Yes when traffic is moderate to heavy slowing everybody can make a big difference for the better. When traffic is very light middle lane hogs cause a quite noticeable slowing and subsequent increase in traffic locally. I wonder if these people think motorways are always busy as there is always traffic around them 🙂

wilburt – Member

I would speed limit cars to whatever applies on that road, it would only bother nobheads.

Three pages of confirmation, well done gents, vroom, vroom.

The problem with limiting vehicles is that it then encourages the driver to drive at that limit. 💡
The proof is quite observable in the limited vehicles we already have on the roads.

When traffic is very light middle lane hogs cause a quite noticeable slowing and subsequent increase in traffic locally. I wonder if these people think motorways are always busy as there is always traffic around them

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been dribbling along at 55mph on the motorway, only to finally pop out of the logjam like a champagne cork onto a near empty road all because some assclown is stuck out in the middle lane because there’s a HGV somewhere on the horizon.

I’m sure there’s a subset of people who either think the middle lane is the “cruising” lane (whateverTF that means) or are so blindly terrified of changing lanes that they’ll change lanes precisely twice, on entering and leaving the motorway. I saw one just this weekend, pull off the slip at maybe 60-70 into the first lane behind another vehicle, then straight out into lane two about a foot in front of a car who was about to overtake the car in lame 1, all in one swift movement. I doubt he even looked. Plank.

The problem with limiting vehicles is that it then encourages the driver to drive at that limit.
The proof is quite observable in the limited vehicles we already have on the roads.

Which is of course why you often see two lorries drag racing each other, one doing 56mph and the other 55.9 recurring, for miles and miles and miles at a time. Just as one gets slightly ahead, the road pitch will change up or down and now the slower one is slightly faster than the other, losing the six inches gained at some point in a previous time zone. Meanwhile, the rest of the motorway is wholly contained in the third lane from Birmingham back to Kendal. I’m sure they do it on purpose just to wind people up.

No I mean an example of cars, same make and model with the 150bhp discrepancy you described which illustrate this 75bhp loss.

All of them? There’s only so much you can do with the laws of physics.
Unless you want to treat your gearbox and engine as service items. (And get shafted by the emissions people a la VW)

Even completely bespoke hypercars won’t produce full power when conditions are so-so.

Post Office vans limited to 50mph seem to have no problem doing 65mph.

I’ll bite, but not in the usual way. I drive a 400hp+ 4×4 estate car as a daily drive and as you all probably know from previous threads, I do like to make use of that performance where safe and responsible to do so.

So why do I drive a 400hp car – because I need it? Not really, an estate with 1/2 the power would be fine for making progress. It’s because I enjoy driving something different, something who’s capabilities are way above average, and I appreciate the engineering that’s gone into the car to make it what it is. I also enjoy the immense feeling of acceleration and effortless torque that the car can generate, but only where safe to do so.

However despite this I would agree that the ‘arms race’ for horsepower has gone a bit crazy lately. 25 years ago, a hot hatchback with 130hp (e.g. 205 1.9Gti) was considered fast but these days 130hp wouldn’t even be considered mildly warm. 200-300hp is now where it’s at.

Yet driving a powerful car can sometimes be frustrating. Other motorists often don’t realise how capable such a car is, and I’ve been flashed by plenty of ‘self righteous’ sorts when performing perfectly safe and courteous overtakes. Lots more traffic these days means that rather than making progress you’re often forced into the routine of mindlessly trudging along at well below the speed limit with half the drivers doing the same seemingly more interested in their phones rather than the road ahead.

So the options to use a fast car to it’s potential on the road today are getting fewer and fewer, just as the horsepower ‘arms race’ really gets going. Cars with high horespower are supposed to be fun, but apart from occasional squirts on full power now most modern performance cars are far too capable to be truly fun. Brakes have got better, tyres better, suspension and handling have improved, driver aids (ESP etc) have made increased power much more usable but all this means is that these cars often feel dead at more mundane speeds. Modern performance cars are often far too big and heavy to thread down a B road with the same sort of gusto that the aforementioned 205 could muster.

I feel that the way forward now for the manufacturers should be to focus on making their cars lighter and more fun to drive at any speed rather than faster. The Toyota GT86 was a step in the right direction but it would be nice to see more manufacturers approaching things in the same direction. Less power and less weight would certainly be my choice when I come to replace my current car.

this thread seems to have been, as usual, sidetracked

As the OP, i’m firmly in the ‘a bit more power at times is better’ camp. What i don’t undertand is why you will ever need more than say 300 bhp on a road car.

the ‘arms race’ for horsepower has gone a bit crazy lately. 25 years ago, a hot hatchback with 130hp (e.g. 205 1.9Gti) was considered fast but these days 130hp wouldn’t even be considered mildly warm. 200-300hp is now where it’s at.

With startlingly small engines too. I was looking at a Focus the other day, they do a 1.0L “ecoboost” engine which puts out 125PS. How is that even possible? My first car had a 1.1L engine and it’s power output was less than half of that (53BHP IIRC). Engine tech has come a very long way in 40 years.

If we are dragging it back on topic I agree with tpbiker, and others. High powered cars do seem a bit unnecessary and it actually makes them a bit dull to drive. A few years back a housemate had an Impreza WRX or something like that. It was a company car and he was happy for us all to have a go. Trouble was at 60 you could easily go round pretty much any bend, in fact you’d usually be round it long before your brain even thought about it. You couldn’t get anywhere near the limit. At that time I had a corolla GT coupe (GT86’s spiritual predecessor); Lightweight, rear wheel drive, revvy engine, LSD. It was great fun to drive and you could have fun while still below the speed limit.

What i don’t undertand is why you will ever need more than say 300 bhp on a road car.

“Need” is kinda subjective, though. You could argue why anyone would “need” more than 150 from a road car. That’s considerably more than the “sporty” Cavalier SRi I used to own, and that was plenty quick enough.

And then again, there’s some on here who’d have us all driving behind a little man with a red flag again given half a chance I think. The bottom line is, the “right” speed and power is whatever you choose, everyone faster is a dangerous lunatic and everyone slower is a bimbling buffoon.

If we are dragging it back on topic I agree with tpbiker, and others. High powered cars do seem a bit unnecessary and it actually makes them a bit dull to drive. A few years back a housemate had an Impreza WRX or something like that. It was a company car and he was happy for us all to have a go. Trouble was at 60 you could easily go round pretty much any bend, in fact you’d usually be round it long before your brain even thought about it. You couldn’t get anywhere near the limit. At that time I had a corolla GT coupe (GT86’s spiritual predecessor); Lightweight, rear wheel drive, revvy engine, LSD. It was great fun to drive and you could have fun while still below the speed limit.

That was the James Hunt thing, wasn’t it? His favourite car being a Morris 1000 on skinny tyres ‘coz he could take it to the limit all the time.
As mentioned above, I’d rather have the power to get out of a situation, but not so much that the power would put me into another. I often see super cars pootling down the motorway and ask myself why. Why spend the money that the Police will just be daring you to speed in?
I occasionally see a supercar being hooned around town. It’s embarrassing because no knickers fall down. The girls are not impressed.
I think back to my mental MkII Escort which would be decidedly pedestrian these days and how things have indeed changed.
The BMW 330 mentioned above is a bloody quick car and as much as you’d need on a road. It’s a cracking drive too.
The supercars are just demonstrations of wealth rather than tools to be driven. Just marketing for the manufacturers.
Wasn’t it James May who drove the Countach dream of his childhood and concluded that it was a pile of crap for driving.
The power without the ability of getting it on the tarmac is worth nothing.
That Focus RS looks a whole bag of fun though.