Can this be right?

OK STW massif, can we kick this one about for a while?

Very interested to know what the feeling is about my mate. He’s our software support guy, basically self-employed, works really hard and is excellent at his job. He’s just come in this morning, and tearfully announced that he is probably going to be unable to continue to offer us a service, on the basis that he’s just been banned from driving for six months. His crime? He had 9 points on his licence for “minor speeding offences”, (what I mean by that is one of them was for triggering a camera at 2:00am in the morning travelling at 37mph at the end of a section of national speed limit dual carriageway), and then got clocked again. He’s been summonsed, sent to court and banned for 6 months. (NB: 6 of the points were incurred in 2006 and are now off his licence.)

Now then, no argument regarding that fact he’s done wrong, but is this punishment, that looks like making him unemployed, as the sole breadwinner in a family of 5 proportionate, (given that for example the driver who recklessly killed the Rhyll cycling club 4 only got £180 fine and 6 penalty points), reasonable and proportionate.

No sermonising please, but I am thinking about writing to my MP about what seems to me to be an injustice, and the huge discrepancy in sentencing. Am I wrong to be outraged?

Cant see a problem with that myself, or should only the great unwashed/chavs/single people etc only get banned as they serve no other purpose?

Buy him a bike! he can cycle for 6 months. Might even enjoy it!

EDIT: I should add that I spent 6 months with 9 points hanging over me and made very sure that I did not manage to pick up another 3, to avoid the position your colleague finds himself in.

Yes you are wrong. If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime. He has been done for speeding 4 times in three years. Once is unfortunate, twice is careless, 4 times is stupid.

If 6 of the points are off his license then he should not have been banned under totting up – or were they still on at the time of the offense?

Cameras are painted in bright colours, the car has a speedo, no excuses.

Can he not get to work another way? Train / bus/ cycle?

Sorry – but I’m with TJ on this – and it will be a sermon. 4 offences – so it’s not like he was just “unlucky”. And if he can’t see the cameras in time to slow down, how good is his general road observation?

If his whole lifestyle/career was based on him driving, he should have been a damn sight more careful.

I would agree that this is wrong, surely the court should have take into account his work/family situation & given him a **** off fine instead.

A huge proportion of the most dangerous people on the road probably “need” to drive.

And comparing with the Rhyll incident is pointless. The driver was prosecuted for driving with bald tyres, and received the appropriate sentence for that offence. You friend was done for speeding. To the extent that you reckon people should only lose their licences if they kill people and really have no need to drive at all then I disagree. 😐

I am thinking about writing to my MP about what seems to me to be an injustice

What injustice?

bus, bike, canoe, horse, rollerblades, skateboard, train, walk……………………………………………………………………….. 😀

Good to see lots of sympathy going on as usual……but the bottom line is he’s been careless and is now paying the price. Yes, it sucks and seems completely unjust when compared to other convictions but them is the rules. Not sure writing to MP will alter outcome.

Aren’t software engineers still in high demand?

have to agree with the above. The effects of the ban are harsh but he should have pulled his neck in after the first two collars.

As above, if he can’t spot the cameras, what else can’t he spot?

Did he get the chance to go on a driver improvement scheme rather than go to court?

Some people just can’t read though can they?

The question is not should he be punished, the question is should the punishment more fairly fit the crime (unless I am badly wrong). But I doubt I am wrong – there is nothing more than some people on here like than to burn any motorist convicted of any offence.

IMO – he was unfairly treated – his circumstances, the nature and timings of the offences (past and present) should be considered and I think you are right to ask questions of the decision.

I agree with the comments above. The sentencing is fairly prescriptive in these situations but, if his circumstances are as you say, I am surprised at the outcome.

He clearly did not argue his case or have adequate representation as, in most cases you describe, the courts tend to give a ‘last chance’. They’ll often impose a heavier fine & a suspended ban of at least 12 months to enable someone to remain employed.

And Onzadog has a good point – a driver improvement course would seem a fair outcome (as well as a hefty fine).

pubic transport?
car sharing?

4 times is indeed a bit daft, you think he would have learnt, but i certainly see what your saying about the comparison to the rhyll incident.
i dont think its a case of your mate needing to get less, the rhyll driver should have gone down in a bigger harder way.

does a driving ban stop you from using a scooooter (possibly a stupid question)

i would suggest he looks at other options, and takes it like a man.
he knew the penalty. if its clear that cameras in your area are sensitive and stingey, then drive accordingly.

I didn’t think that the courts were able to give someone a ban for speeding if it will affect their ability to earn a living.

Mate of mine who has to drive for a living (estate agent 🙄 ) went to court on an instant ban (100mph+ and yes he is an idiot) but because his employer did him a letter stating that if he was off the road for any longer than 3 week he would be made redundant the judge said he had no option other than to ban him for 3 weeks and increase his fine.

Not saying that i agree with this but that was my understanding of being banned for speeding, might be different though if it was an accumulation of points over a given period of time. 😕

Yep, TJ is right.
We all get caught (Well most) from time to time. I was on 9 points myself once, years ago, for a few months. I drove like a vicar.
Despite having drivel well over 20k miles a year for the last 3 years, I haven’t been caught, mainly because I’ve stuck to the limits most of the time, especially round town and on motorways, because my job depended on my license.

Very shortly (Touch wood) I’ll have a clean slate again….
😈

EDIT – No, I think the punishment is fair. If you can’t back off the gas when you’re on 9 points, tough titty.

Why can’t he get to work by other means. I have to travel a lot with work and the main office is 45 mins drive away and I can cycle or use public transport all the time If I want.

He has no one to blame but himself really

I think it’s pretty harsh tbh – I think it’s a shame that lots of people get away with all sorts of terrible driving, but as long as they don’t set off a speed camera then nothing happens to them.

Oh and would it not be possible for a software support guy to work from home ?

Or his partner ferry him to and from work, he/she doesn’t work according to the o/p?

He clearly did not argue his case or have adequate representation as, in most cases you describe, the courts tend to give a ‘last chance’. They’ll often impose a heavier fine & a suspended ban of at least 12 months to enable someone to remain employed.

I agree. Last year I got clocked doing 121mph at the end of the M1 and cops pulled me up in Brent Cross and showed me the video. I went to court pleeded guilty, represented myself, gave my story of how being without a car would affect my education and work and walked away with a 42 day ban and £275 fine.

Actually, as I made the magistrates court feel guilty of my situation they asked me if the mimimum ban was acceptable for me. Well, all I can say is that I was more than happy to accept.

If you dont argue your case properly they will look to give you as much punishment as they can. I walked out of court told everyone who was there at court that day for driving offences how much I got and they were shocked. Before going into court they were all being advised by their solicitors they were looking at lenghty bans for their offences. Even the solicitors were shocked themsleves. Fat cats just taking money for a job you can do yourself.

Has his ban just stopped him driving to work, or has he been sacked for having a conviction that led to him being disqualified from driving?

Getting 4 speeding tickets in 3 years isn’t just bad luck, it’s got to be a blatant disregard for speed limits. It’s hard to be sympathetic – if you’re on 9 points and another one means loss of livelihood then surely the sensible thing to do it make sure you don’t speed, or take risks on traffic lights with cameras, or use your mobile while driving or do anything, anywhere, that could get you another 3 points?

Rhyl only has 1 bloody l, and IIRC the tyres were not considered to be contributory to the tragic accident.

As for your IT guy, well I’ve been there with 11 points and I finally learned to drive within the limits. over 4 years ago since my last set of points now and I’m back on a clean license. I don’t see how not having use of a car means you can’t work though.

Cameras are painted in bright colours

Indeed, they’re big and they’re yellow – so the words “driving without due care and attention” come to mind. Speeding with points and missing a speed camera – can’t see the point in whinging about it.
And if he’s the sole breadwinner, isn’t that somethiing he should have though of before deciding that the speed limit didn’t apply to him?

olly – yes. A ban applies to all vehicles. the only time you get a partial ban is if you have an HGV and do something HGV specific like loading dangerously, then you might lose the vocational licence (HGV entitlement).

with unemployent reaching millions , i`am sure he could find a driver
very easily .

rules is rules in my opinion, if we didn’t have rules where would we be..?

FRANCE

and no one wants that!

I like things to be black and white. Grey areas like these cause more trouble than they’re worth. He knew the rules and chose to ignore them on numerous occasions (9pts already on the slate etc).

Tell him to suck it up and take responsibility for his actions. If he can’t use public transport can he work remotely?

(having children makes you more right wing and less tolerant it would appear)

I don’t see how reducing the ban and imposing a heavier fine really helps solve owt. You break the law, your driving privileges (note; ‘privilege’, not ‘right’. No-one has the ‘right’ to drive, it is a privilege which must be earned) are taken away. Or, is it ok for someone rich to drive like a complete C, and just get a 2 week ban because they ‘need’ their car, and can afford a big fine? A lengthy ban might at least give someone time to think about their actions, and hopefully encourage them to behave more responsibly in future.

As for his family; there are other jobs, and Benefits that they would be entitled to. They won’t starve or go homeless.

I feel no sympathy. I’d rather see reckless speeders off the road.

but as long as they don’t set off a speed camera then nothing happens to them.

Very good point.

Near us there are two schools and a 20mph limit.

The road is quite busy day and night and I often walk down it. I have seen overtaking (even though the car was actually trying to turn right!!!!!) and many, many cars going comfortably over the limit, some I would estimate at 50/60mph plus.

In the 7 years I have lived there I have seen police patrolling it once and there are no speed cameras.

He knew how many points he had on his licence and still risked loosing it but speeding again, can’t see why there should be an sympathy given out.

6 of the points were incurred in 2006 and are now off his licence.)

Nope they aren’t removed until the 4th year.

Nope they aren’t removed until the 4th year

Yup, takes 4 years to come off

i too had 9 points for a while – who’s fault was that? Mine
but as said previously i made damn sure that i did nt get anymore as i did nt want to be in the position that your mate is now

that said i am sure that if your md or other director wrote to the court expressing what a useful part of the team he is etc and that he would become unemployed if he lost his licence and if he offered to go on a speed awareness course he may keep hi licence

Last year I got clocked doing 121mph at the end of the M1 and cops pulled me up in Brent Cross and showed me the video. I went to court pleeded guilty, represented myself, gave my story of how being without a car would affect my education and work and walked away with a 42 day ban and £275 fine.

“affect your education and work”??

not nearly as much as wrapping your car around an HGV would affect your education and work.

I know the rules, and when i creep over the speed limit on my own head be it when they pull me over.
dissapointing that its possible to blag your way out of a 120mph ticket imo

[slow clap]

I just love the way folk answer a different question to the one asked, well done mastiles_fanylion for actually reading the OP.

Right to answer a few points, he does approx 60,000 miles per annum, he offers rapid support services to a quite widespread customer base, so is on call 24/7 and is expected to respond on demand. That sort of mileage is some 5 to 6 times the national average, so what you are looking at is the equivalent of one speeding offence per 6 years of average driving. I don’t think cycling is an answer in these circumstances do you?

Anyway, could all those who have not made any error in 6 years of driving please sign below, so I can demonstrate to him what a worthless piece of shite he is in comparision to the holier than though wussacks on here.

In the meantime, try to get your collective heads around the fact that the reason I was writing to my MP was in respect of the disparity between sentencing for injury, death and damage done to cyclists, in proportion to sentences handed out for relatively minor traffic infringments where no injury/damage/harm is sustained. (and before the wolf pack winds up to full howl, there is a difference in English Law where the consequences of your actions are proportionately more serious, I think you will find its not taken into account in the verdict, but is covered in sentencing guidelines.)

In the meantime, try to get your heads around the meaning behind the following segements of the OP

Now then, no argument regarding that fact he’s done wrong,

No sermonising please, but I am thinking about writing to my MP about what seems to me to be an injustice, and the huge discrepancy in sentencing. Am I wrong to be outraged?

FFS………. <wanders off to calm down muttering and shaking head>

I know the rules, and when i creep over the speed limit on my own head be it when they pull me over.
dissapointing that its possible to blag your way out of a 120mph ticket imo

Hey, I did the crime and did the time. I just knew what to say in court. Ever since my ban has come off I have not gone back to driving. I use my bike and public transport where ever I go now.

affect your education and work

I was doing a post grad course and traveling to uni over 40 miles away and my work paid for my studies. If i had no car I had no other option but to leave my study. Guess the court took pity in me.

Are you saying he should be allowed to rack up more points because he does more miles?

You can’t pick and choose what laws apply to you – to be frank he knew the law, he ignored it, either willfully or carelessly, and now he’s got to face the consequences.

Whether the law is right or wrong in your eyes is irrelevant here – it’s not like he’s a crusader for the right of the great british public to drive where the hell they like, however fast they like, is it? He’s a fool. End of.

G – what you fail to understand is that many of us do not agree with you. I don’t think a ban for being caught speeding 4 times in 3 yrs is disproportionate. You comparison to the Ryl (sp) case is spurious as that was a single offense of having an unroadworthy car that in the opinion of the court did not contribute to the accident.

The simple fact is your friend knew he was on a knife edge after getting 9 pts but still continued to drive above the speed limit and to drive so poorly that he did not see the speed cameras.

Perfectly reasonable ban IMO

The different outcome you can get for the same crime seems to depend on what area of the country you’re caught, how good your solicitor is, which magistrates you get etc. This just seems wrong, and I have sympathy for someone feeling aggrieved when they hear someone else got done for exactly the same thing in similar circumstances and got a much more lenient punishment.

The fact that the proportionality of the punishment is down to how good his lawyer/blagging skills might be p!sses me off no end.

Have you told him that everyone thinks he’s a twunt yet?

he does approx 60,000 miles per annum, he offers rapid support services to a quite widespread customer base, so has more to lose by losing his licence so should have known better, no? Or does being a high milage driver who offers 24/7 rapid response somehow make it easier on someone he kills in an accident?

Anyway, could all those who have not made any error in 6 years of driving please sign below, I have. I speed. I’ve even been caught. My fault, no question about it. I was driving the car and it was going too fast. For the next wee while I paid a lot more attention to speed limits and my speedo. Clean now, so back up to the old speeds. Maybe that’s what your mate should have done.

Anyway, could all those who have not made any error in 6 years of driving please sign below, so I can demonstrate to him what a worthless piece of shite he is in comparision to the holier than though wussacks on here.
I haven’t done 6 years of driving, but no one in my family’s recieved a ticket for speeding (or anything else) in what would be well over 100 years of driving, I’m pretty sure that they’re not particularlry unique.

I got 9 points in a very unfortunate 9mth period. Luckily my wife took 3 of them so i never got above 6 on my licence.

It made me

a) Calm down
b) Get cruise control on every subsequent vehicle – It really does make a big difference
c) Appreciate that its just not worth it

If your friend didnt heed these warnings, of which he had 3 previous, i dont think he really has much to complain about. He also, when found in this position, should have invested in the best lawyer possible as it sounds like he hasnt agued much of a case.

Collegue of mine is currently waint his date to go and fight for his licence due to similar totting up points. He has a bill so far for a few thousand pounds for lawyer and he has the most fantastic letter from the MD to say that x number of jobs rely on his ability to bring in the business. I think he is still going down though so he is making plans for his ban, rather than cry about it after its happened