Can I wear my rememberance poppy in Germany?

As really what stopped the germans, ultimately was the russian war for a the large part.

Yup, and our Bombing helped keep Russian in the War on our side. Stalin loved us bombing cities, and from his POW we were doing very little else to help him. The Allies were well aware that Russians could do another deal with Hitler, end the war on the Eastern Front and leave Hitler to go back west. They’d have known Hitler was going to come back their way once the UK was defeated but it would give them breathing space to massively re-arm and in the meantime Britain and Germany would have bled each other white.

We’ll never know if that was necessary to keep Stalin onside, but nor did the people making the decision a the time. That’s on top of all the other reasons listed above. (To put a number on one of those reasons  it by the end of the War Germany was using 33pc of it’s resources on Anti Aircraft weapons. Would it have been better if that resource had gone on Tanks?)

WW2 was a uniquely attritional war. It’s didn’t matter where you wasted your enemy away, it was all useful and for much of the war Bombing, for all it’s flaws, was the only contribution we could make.

For the times, the Roman empire was on the democratic end of the spectrum…..

For the times, the British Empire was on the benign end of Imperialism.

The First Army alone of the Free French, which were involved in the liberation of Europe – was comprised of 130,000 men.

So whilst I enjoy bashing the French, saying the Free French did little or nothing is balls.

For the times, the British Empire was on the benign end of Imperialism.

Yes! they were very kind, especially that Briggs fella, giving all those funny foreign chaps ‘new villages’ to live in!

For the times, the British Empire was on the benign end of Imperialism.

Apart from all those other countries that didn’t engage in imperialism, or were actively opposed to it – like the Americans were. And it was a detriment to the world when they decided to go British on the world in the Philippines and a lot of other places post WW2.

I find it hard to believe anyone who’s made even the most passing research about the Nazis could come to such a conclusion. Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.

Keep the quote in context, I was talking about the carpet bombing of German industrial cities Vs the carpet bombing of British industrial cities.

But even out of context, as alluded to by others British history is littered with pretty appalling incidents.

The point I was trying to make was, blind patriotism and the idea that our side was always in the right does nothing to hold those in power or on the frontline to account.

The First Army alone of the Free French, which were involved in the liberation of Europe – comprised of 130,000 men.

130k men is about 10 Divisions. There were 250 German Divisions in the East at one point. More French people fought for the Axis than fought for the Allies. Which isn’t to suggest any blame whatsoever. When a country is occupied for years people are going to find it very difficult to avoid helping their invaders and very hard to contribute to their allies. Especially if they’re scared of the communists.

Also don’t forget the German Army was 90pc unmechanized at the start of WW2. German soldiers marched. The vehicles that allowed for a speedy invasion of Russia were largely captured French vehicles which the French failed to destroy when they surrendered.

France: Overall nothing to be too ashamed of, overall nothing to be too proud of IMHO.

So whilst I enjoy bashing the French, saying the Free French did little or nothing is balls.

The Vichy french had a similar sized army. 130,000 men is next to nothing in the bigger picture.

Apart from all those other countries that didn’t engage in imperialism, or were actively opposed to it – like the Americans were. And it was a detriment to the world when they decided to go British on the world in the Philippines and lot of other places post WW2.

The Americans? What about Mexico and Texas?

You do know the Americans were in the Philippines before WW1?

Vichy Frances standing army was 75,000.

The Free French numbered 320,000 during their push into Germany in the final stages of the war.

So I get the feeling that’s shite as well.

You do know the Americans were in the Philippines before WW1?

Yes, which pretty much initiated their inexorable slide into British style imperialism.

didn’t engage in imperialism, or were actively opposed to it – like the Americans were.

Japan in 1850, Cuba to name but two.

Have a listen:

Hardcore History 49 – The American Peril

Did more Frenchmen fight for the Axis than for the Allies? I thought so, but there’s a thread about it here for anyone who’s interested:

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/11437/more-frenchmen-bore-arms-for-the-axis-than-for-the-allies-during-the-second-wor

I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.

So Globuchul, as there are people around in living memory of the Mau Mau uprising – are you embarrassed by British atrocities.- or are you going to keep up with the apologism?

70 years later we may have been in a better place if that had happened.

The way the Nazi’s were planning to make Europe a better place was via “the hunger plan”. Google that and come back and explain why Europe would be ‘better’ if that had happened.

– are you embarrassed by British atrocities.- or are you going to keep up with the apologism?

You could go on for ever trawling history for atrocity.  The Mau Mau were far from clean themselves, nobody ever is in a conflict.

But it’s just not credible to compare British actions with those of the Nazis. Dead is dead I know, being killed by the “right side” is no comfort. But the scale and most importantly the intent of the Nazis puts them on a completely different scale.

Good points Taxi, but globuchuls ability to point out where Germans should be embarrassed but avoid any kind of embarrassment on his part is symptomatic of the malaise that blights the British view of it’s place in the world.

The British frame everything with “but we’re the good guys”, which is clearly not true. It damages our ability to engage positively with the rest of the global community.

But it’s just not credible to compare British actions with those of the Nazis. Dead is dead I know, being killed by the “right side” is no comfort. But the scale and most importantly the intent of the Nazis puts them on a completely different scale.

But we can also consider both part of history now and treat them as such.

I was in Ypres two weeks ago, I visited the Menin Gate first in the early morning, covered in wreaths from all those that visited to pay their respects. All the within the arch, lining the stairs and above the arches inscribed with names of nearly 55,000 UK soldiers who died at the Salient but were never recovered. Other nations have monuments to their soldiers too. As we left a large group of workers went around preparing the monument for that days visitors, moving the wreaths around so the migrated to the upper levels were the oldest ones were removed.

Afterwards we walked around the town and enjoyed how nice it was, enjoying coffees and looking in the shops were Poppys are a regular feature. Before we left we visited In Flanders museum. The whole build up to the conflict was detailed, the early battles to the end of the war. The changes in uniforms to weaponry manufactured in the industrial age and its brutality. Throughout it all you progressed through interactive displays controlled by an RFID wristband that you input your details into so your language was spoken. As you moved along with the various other nationalities visiting the museum that day, many of them Europeans but also Australians, Japanese and Chinese in equally large numbers and also remembering their own who had come to fight and never returned from this land. As the displays show the war and the campaigns you see the towns and land before, during and now, the armies from both sides as well as the civilians caught up in it all. The final section details the devastation that left Ypres levelled by bombardment, the displaced population returning to rebuild their homes and the present with so much ordnance regularly being found. One of the last displays, after the volumes of books listing the names of the dead, is the pictures of the Ypres levelled and then images of it being rebuilt again to how it was before the war so that it can stand as a living memorial to the conflict. As you leave the poppy’s are prevalent in the art work and the shops, including RBL, sell books and poppy’s and at the exit is s large clear collection box to deposit your RFID wristband for recycling. Its full of white silicon wristbands with a large red poppy on them. You then walk out and back into the town centre to the realisation that you had been walking around the memorial all the time and it’s not just the gate or the museum, it is the whole town.

The suggestion that the poppy glorifies war is ridiculous. If you feel this way go to Ypres and tell them as such although I don’t think you’d be taken seriously.

As for wearing a poppy in Germany, then do so. I and many others have done for years, no one comments on it. Some may ask to look more closely at the limited edition designs. The Germans don’t observe Armistice of 11 November but do have a national day of mourning marked by a bank holiday later in November. Parades from the church to the memorial with the laying of flowers mark the occasion.

The suggestion that the poppy glorifies war is ridiculous. If you feel this way go to Ypres and tell them as such although I don’t think you’d be taken seriously.

It’s good as that is not what people are saying, it’s more that people are using it as a badge to celebrate the heroics of war as a part of nationalistic pride. As a symbol of remembrance it’s important that it stays just that.

To add I’ve been to Ypres and most of the Somme area, seen the memorials and the Normandy coast from WWI. I know what it’s about there.

The RBL are clear on what they see it as:

The poppy is

• A symbol of Remembrance and hope
• Worn by millions of people
• Red because of the natural colour of field poppies

The poppy is NOT

• A symbol of death or a sign of support for war
• A reflection of politics or religion
• Red to reflect the colour of blood

Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories. It is not compulsory but is greatly appreciated by those it helps – our beneficiaries: those currently serving in our Armed Forces, veterans, and their families and dependants.

Anything else is probably a personal interpretation, but wide of the intention. Also, going to the RBL site I found out that Scottish poppies have 4 petals and no leaf….

When I was a kid in my parish church, we had a number of WW2 vets, one of whom was a German soldier. I always found it moving when he and a British vet would lay a wreath together.

We did it to defeat Germany.

What role did the destruction of Dresden have in the defeat of Germany?

In war you end up compromising more than your life, you compromise your conscience, your morality, your humanity. No matter which side you’re on, what you ‘believe’ in, when you’re alone with your thoughts all of this eats away at you. The guilt for surviving, the guilt at killing other humans, all of this never leaves you. You can try and ignore it, but it’s always there, in the back of your mind.

Crack on and debate the legalities and morality of military decisions from decades ago, you achieve nothing apart from foaming at the mouth, mostly talking about things you know little of and could never understand, none of us could, we weren’t there with the German war machine knocking on the door. The pressure on those in command, to try and win a war against a superior enemy, as soon as was viable, is hard to imagine. What I know is it’s easy to become the very thing you fight, to follow them down the path of darkness. When it happens, the important thing is recognising that and to walk back from that, not to continue. Ask yourselves what you would do if you were in their shoes, tasked with winning a war. Tactical hindsight is always 20/20.

The military, it’s leaders and soldiers may not be perfect, they will falter and make some absolute heinous decisions, but they will be based in the context of the moment, flawed as that may be, but the pressure from being responsible for lives other than your own can on one hand cause a detachment from consequence; you just see unit names and numbers, on the other a pressure like no other; to order soldiers to their job, knowing some will never come back, I pray that none of you ever have to shoulder that burden. I wish I never had.

The poppy was meant as symbol for unified remembrance of the pure horror of war and a time for the nation to unite and acknowledge the absolute brutal slaughter of millions of people: soldiers, civilians and those permanently damaged by war. It has been hijacked by all comers to twist it one way and the other, everyone who cares about other humans above their own self interest should wrestle the meaning back for all of those poor bastards who died and every bystander who witnessed the slaughter.

Do I wear it with pride? Not really, I wear it because the intent of it was pure, the reason was altruistic before the mouth-breathers of both sides perverted it. I wear it because it makes the old boys and girls who genuinely fought for my freedom happy one day of the year. I’ll keep wearing it even after there’s none left, even though I don’t need it to remind myself that there were once ordinary men and women willing to do the unthinkable to give me and my family a safer future. That was their honest belief, and that’s a good enough reason for me.

Very fine post Moose.

On the original question, we used to have rather a lot of servicemen stationed in Germany, together with their families, so the poppy was hardly an uncommon sight at this time of year.

Well said Moose.

Moose +1