Can I wear my rememberance poppy in Germany?

Back on topic………….

You can control your actions but you can’t control how people react to them. So you can wear a poppy with all the right intentions (remembering the overall futility of war for example), but you can’t then play the “I’m sorry for any offence caused but not my own actions” card if someone else chooses to view your symbol as a memorial of your sides victory over them. So if you don’t want to offend anyone, best not to do it.

Just like you can say the bombing of Dresden was “strategic”, it was, but it’s not as a synonym for precision,

“What was our strategy?”

To terrroise, de-house and kill the workers that provided the weapons for their armed forces.

Read up on the Hamburg Firestorm in 1943. Absolutely horrific. However, it did disrupt industrial output and divert valuable resources to air defence.

Luckily for the UK, the Germans didn’t have the same capability in 1940.

The Germans invented modern strategic bombing at Guernica in 1937. The UK and USA perfected it.

“The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naïve theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now, they are going to reap the whirlwind”

Fair enough I say.

I agree with the fair enough statement, it was. Fighting dirty and and crossing over the line of what is reasonable in normal times was required. More recognistion and analysis of that is much more preferable to the miltaristic nonsense attached to the poppy.

Fair enough I say.

The argument that we did it, because they started it – falls down when you consider that the allies or nations associated with the allies, then used strategic bombing against North Koreans, the Vietnamese and the Cambodians – to level cities and civilian populations aka terror bombing. Neither of these countries ever engaged in strategic bombing against any allied nation.

These events are currently filed under

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/I_Can%27t_Believe_It%27s_Not_Terrorism

It’s all a bit –

Fair enough I say.

I don’t think bombing innocent civilians could ever be described as fair could it?

If you read that article on page 1 it talks about the ways different nationalities view their armed forces, their personnel and their conflicts as either distinct entities or as a a collective whole.

Personally I don’t believe that the German population should have been collectively punished for the acts of the Nazi party, and I don’t believe that the german soldier or bomber crew was necessarily any more complicit in their actions than ours. It’s all very well putting up propaganda posters saying ‘our brave boys are out there avenging the bombing of Coventry / Dresden’, the reality was in a lot of cases they were one disobeyed order away from being shot for cowardice.

Some of the armed forces would have been genuine believers, others sucked in by the propaganda, and others there under duress.

Dehumanising and killing a group of people? Not just a Nazi thing.

The argument that we did it, because they started it –

We did it to defeat Germany.

We only had to do so as they were the aggressor.

Germany wanted to dominate Europe and parts of Asia, control all of the resources and enslave entire nations.

What is it with the hand wringers who make excuses for them and then spout crap about the evil that the British Empire did? Can the Third Reich really be compared to the British Empire?

No one has yet explained, even with the benefit of hindsight, what other options we really had apart from total war?

I once met a Mosquito pilot, really pleasant unassuming bloke, he told me about attacking German convoys and how they normally had around 20% losses on each sortie. I asked him how did he get back in the aircraft and take off, time after time, his answer was simple, to paraphrase, “we knew the job had to be done, if we didn’t do it, who would?”.

Truly humbling, that’s why I wear a poppy, to remember the sacrifice made by all involved, including the ones that survived.

To say a poppy glorifies war is utter tosh.

What is it with the hand wringers who make excuses for them and then spout crap about the evil that the British Empire did? Can the Third Reich really be compared to the British Empire?

You know when you missed the point the fist time.

War is bad full stop, things were done that in the cold light of day were beyond lines. People justified these things to themselves at the time. What people are saying is we can look back at the conflict and not take sides and objectively analyse it.

Truly humbling, that’s why I wear a poppy, to remember the sacrifice made by all involved, including the ones that survived.

To say a poppy glorifies war is utter tosh.

But still people use the occasion to do that, bringing it back to us and them, saying who deserved it and who didn’t. How morally we behaved and how we had no choice.

We did it to defeat Germany.
We only had to do so as they were the aggressor.

But then we went on to carpet bomb various brown people around the world, without that justification?

Can the Third Reich really be compared to the British Empire?

Pretty much, yes. The famines caused by the British in India alone, during the 19th century killed 30 million.

That puts Stalin and Hitler to shame.

The argument that we did it, because they started it – falls down when you consider that the allies or nations associated with the allies, then used strategic bombing against North Koreans, the Vietnamese and the Cambodians – to level cities and civilian populations aka terror bombing. Neither of these countries ever engaged in strategic bombing against any allied nation.

It’s war, essentially when it comes to it, people will do what they think is necessary at the time. But carpet bombing is pure terrorism, nothing more. There’s also an argument against the effectiveness of it. As really what stopped the germans, ultimately was the russian war for a the large part. And the japanese you can speculate if the russian invasion of china had and effect as much the nukes or not, but lets just say the japanese where able to withstand an awful lot of firebombing, and even then they had to be convinced to surrender after the nukes. And the vietmanese were able to withstand the americans..

It’s interesting the modern term – rules of engagement, they only really apply when you’ve got superior strength, and even then in the case of vietnam, when that isn’t enough, even then people will resort to mass murder.

It’s all a shitfest and should not be glorified for one minute. But shit does indeed happen in war, ultimately there are no rules when it comes to it.

Can the Third Reich really be compared to the British Empire?

Pretty much, yes.

You really believe that?

The British have done some terrible things in the past.

However, nothing on the scale and with the pure evil intent that the Germans were guilty of in the 1930’s and 40’s.

However, nothing on the scale and with the pure evil intent that the Germans were guilty of in the 1930’s and 40’s.

The famines caused by the British in India alone, during the 19th century killed 30 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

Next, do we need a scale of deaths to declare something bad? You must get over this many dead per year to qualify?

Part of being objective is to be able to dispassionately look at events, take being on one side or the other out of it and look at the events that took place.

From a consequentialist perspective, the British Empire achieved the same levels of human destruction as the Nazis did – whether you gas and shoot 30 million to death is no different to you starving them to death.

That puts Hitler to shame.

I think there is a defining line there, which is worse is up to you, but a defining line there might be that british atrocities were a consequence of their search for profit, hitler was really just getting started on a much more deliberate and sinister approach to genocide.

I do think one was worse than the other. But both are shameful.

So killing out of deep seated political and social conviction is worse than the cool swarve crime of killing for profit? 😀

I think I know why the British are always the baddies in movies now…

I think you missed the bit where I said hitler was just getting started. can you imagine if the 3rd reich lasted even 20 years?

France would be free of the French?

Sadly, the poppy has been hijacked up here by the uber-unionists, anyone who dares to speak against war will be deemed a snowflake, or even worse, a nationalist….

We did it to defeat Germany.

And Germany did it to defeat us.

Thinking of it in black and white terms of “we are good, Germany was bad” doesn’t help prevent future wars, it just perpetuates them.

What is it with the hand wringers who make excuses for them

Has anyone made excuses for them? You don’t have to be pro one side and anti the other, I don’t personally feel either side should be viewed uncritically or without sympathy either. The only person “making excuses” is you with reference to the allied bombing campaign.

No one has yet explained, even with the benefit of hindsight, what other options we really had apart from total war?

I’m waiting for someone to answer this. Because in WW2 we really were the good guys, certainly  in our intent. The Nazi’s were an atrocity, I genuinely think if they’d prevailed the nightmare would still be happening.

I’m waiting for someone to answer this. Because in WW2 we really were the good guys, certainly  in our intent. The Nazi’s were an atrocity, I genuinely think if they’d prevailed the nightmare would still be happening.

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t make everything the allies did above criticism.

I’m waiting for someone to answer this.

You will be waiting a long time as they can’t answer this.

It’s been asked a number of times on this thread.

The reality is, the majority of Europe owe their freedom to the USA, the UK and the people of it’s Commonwealth/Empire.

Without them they would now be either part of the Third Reich or the USSR.

but that doesn’t make everything the allies did above criticism.

Obviously not, but there’s definitely a sniff of we were as bad as them from some posters. If you look at the actions of individuals or specific policies in isolation you’ll find plenty wrong with every side in every war.

But from time to time war is the only way to defend yourself from an aggressor. WW2 was definitely one of those times. And terribly it was a war we just couldn’t loose whatever the cost.

I genuinely think if they’d prevailed the nightmare would still be happening.

and

Without them they would now be either part of the Third Reich or the USSR.

My, I’d forgotten that Spain is still a fascist state, is Franco still around then?

But from time to time war is the only way to defend yourself from an aggressor. WW2 was definitely one of those times.

And no one is disputing that, they are simply saying that we were little better than the opposition.

You revisionist snowflakes ought to be grateful to the armies of the allied forces for the fact that we have free speech to discuss this sort of thing.

#WearItWithPride

My, I’d forgotten that Spain is still a fascist state, is Franco still around then?

What are you on about?

we were little better than the opposition.

Not true, Complete shite.

And no one is disputing that, they are simply saying that we were little better than the opposition.

I find it hard to believe anyone who’s made even the most passing research about the Nazis could come to such a conclusion. Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.

Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.

Try telling that to Indians, Zimbabweans, Kenyans, the Irish, the Chinese, the former French Indochina, Iraqis  etc etc

What are you on about?

You think that the Third Reich would still be in existence had the western allies not intervened.

Which is bollocks – because no fascist state lasts more than about 50 years.

I’d be hobbling off to a factory with a shamrock embroidered armband were it not for the glorious victory of the allies.

I find it hard to believe anyone who’s made even the most passing research about the Nazis could come to such a conclusion. Were weren’t little better than them, we were vastly better than them.

Keeping this on context, the UK has committed some huge atrocities through history, we accept that and that we are not the same people that committed them.

In the same way that the people of Germany are not the people who carried out these actions.

For historical perspective to have been an Adult at the end of WWI you would be 118 years old at this point.

To have been an adult at the end of WW2 you would be 90 years old.

None of the people about today played any senior role in either war.

it celebrates all soldiers everywhere, a remembrance

Still can’t trust ‘em though mike

Without them they would now be either part of the Third Reich or the USSR.

Don’t knock it.  Who knows, 70 years later we may have been in a better place if that had happened.

Try telling that to Indians, Zimbabweans, Kenyans, the Irish, the Chinese, the former French Indochina, Iraqis etc etc

A lot of mistakes have been made over hundreds of years.

However, the right thing was done eventually. particularity regards to India, Zimbabwe and Kenya.

Not sure when we built factories to systematically murder people and recycle what ever of value from their carcasses?

Not sure what French Indochina has got to do with the UK?

You do know that on the Eastern Front, the German Army actually used the bodies of their enemies to improve the roads?

Do you think the UK had POW camps like what the Japanese had?

What about Oradour? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

Don’t knock it. Who knows, 70 years later we may have been in a better place if that had happened.

FFS.

 majority of Europe owe their freedom to the USA, the UK and the people of it’s Commonwealth/Empire.

erm…

you do see this, don’t you ?

Do you think the UK had concentration camps like the Japanese had?

Google images – search – “Lizzie van Zyl”

Not sure what French Indochina has got to do with the UK?

We are talking about the western allies, yes?

However, the right thing was done eventually. particularity regards to India, Zimbabwe and Kenya.

Oh yes, that’s alright then – genocide and murder are okay because we were just trying to be paternalistic and educate the savage bumfucks. And once that was done, we saw sense and stopped finding excuses to kill them.

You think that the Third Reich would still be in existence had the western allies not intervened.

Which is bollocks – because no fascist state lasts more than about 50 years.

Roman Empire? They were around for a bit.

Saudi Arabia? They are a bit facisty.

Roman Empire? They were around for a bit.

For the times, the Roman empire was on the democratic end of the spectrum…..

We are talking about the western allies, yes?

The French did little or nothing to assist in the liberation of Europe.

Besides, I was talking about the actions the UK armed forces.