Can I wear my rememberance poppy in Germany?

I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.

Of course the UK didn’t build (or take over) any factories to build Lancasters, Spitfires, etc. and didn’t fly over to Germany to bomb the c**p out of towns and cities like the one I live in right now. :rolleyes:  Why bomb factories when you can send 200 Lancasters to drop incendiary bombs and make 60% of the residents homeless instead? In one night.

Wear a poppy, nobody will even bat an eyelid. If they do, say it’s a symbol of remembrance of those that were sacrificed. The Germans also have a remembrance on 11/11.

I’ve only seen a few wearing poppies, and they were all Brits on business trips. But we’re an international organisation. Most probably didn’t or wouldn’t have either noticed.

Another very good point. The politics that ended up with WWII was pretty much a consequence of some poor (with hindsight) decisions made in the name of peace to end WWI.

In reality, there was one World War, from 1914 to 1990.

The Cold War was directly linked to WW1.

Churchill wanted to invade Russia in 1945. He said we would have to deal with them sometime and we had the men and equipment available.

He was right. It took 45 years to defeat the Soviets.

I grew up in the 80’s, the threat of Global Annihilation was very real.

Would it of made more sense to of dealt with it in 1945?

That’s what Hitler said.

Does it make it less true? A war that killed millions for no gain or movement, it cost the UK and france a huge amount. The follow up to that sowed the seeds for problems in Germany, Short sighted politics of revenge and punishment.

Some of the people who were both perpetrators and victims of The Holocaust are still alive. It’s not ancient history.

And so are the people in the last part of my statement. It happened in the 50’s.

Germany has gone a long way to come back from a very desperate position, the separation of the country and the east german regime happened.

In the UK and other countries there is a over simplistic view of the 2 world wars that is spoon fed to the willing.

He was right. It took 45 years to defeat the Soviets.

I grew up in the 80’s, the threat of Global Annihilation was very real.

Would it of made more sense to of dealt with it in 1945?

Did we defeat them or did they defeat themselves? Invading Russia, well what could possibly go wrong there? What would we have replaced them with? What gave the UK the right to determine who ruled the countries of the world?

Of course the UK didn’t build (or take over) any factories to build Lancasters, Spitfires, etc. and didn’t fly over to Germany to bomb the c**p out of towns and cities like the one I live in right now. :rolleyes: Why bomb factories when you can send 200 Lancasters to drop incendiary bombs and make 60% of the residents homeless instead? In one night.

What choice did we have?

What should we of done?

Surrender?

Comparing strategic bombing with mass genocide?

In the UK and other countries there is a over simplistic view of the 2 world wars that is spoon fed to the willing.

I have read dozens of books on the 2 World Wars.

I do not have a simplistic view of them.

However, in 1940 what choice did we have? What should we of done?

of

have

😉

Comparing strategic bombing with mass genocide?

Well the British are experts at both, so well positioned to make the comparison.

Did we defeat them or did they defeat themselves?

They were defeated by the economic might of the USA. They had to spend so much of their GDP on weapons to keep up with NATO, their economy collapsed.

Invading Russia, well what could possibly go wrong there?

Napoleon and Hitler didn’t have nuclear weapons.

What would we have replaced them with? What gave the UK the right to determine who ruled the countries of the world?

The Soviets were seen as a threat to Western Democracy. The USSR wasn’t a very pleasant place to live. I have just come back from a job in Szczcein, Poland, the memory of the Soviet era is still very real.

Or are we going to re-write that as well?

Would it of made more sense to of dealt with it in 1945?

😆 you talking about nuking the shit out of them? Cause that’s the only way it would have been possible to beat the Soviets.

Or are we going to re-write that as well?

Again still not seeing a rewrite just an assessment of what happened,

Back to the Op:

Ms Rm who is a German.. suggests that people wouldnt know what it was and think it was a decoration… she wouldnt take offence either..

But, she is from a bit of Germany so close to the Swiss border it was too risky to bomb incase a stray went across the Rhine…. but they did have a mahoosive rail gun that aparently could hit bits of Paris, hidden in a railway tunnel.

The poppy was chosen because poppies grew in profusion on the battlefields of the first world war. Poppies thrive on disturbed ground. It got rebooted to use the modern vernacular for the second world war although there was a lot less churning up of mud. Now it has become a bit of a “heroes” thing, like the celebration of Wooten Basset, with  reactionary overtones imho. I’m of the opinion that we let it go now that WW1 is history. It doesn’t really serve as a reminder of the consquences of modern warfare.

The question is what you (one) is saying by wearing it, particularly wearing it abroad. Presumably you are trying to tell people something, maybe virtue signalling (sorry). The Germans have taken a non-militaristic approach on board rather better than us, so it seems unnecessary if not provocative to be wearing a poppy over there. Keep that sort of thing for football matches.

Germans have taken a non-militaristic approach on board rather better than us, so it seems unnecessary if not provocative to be wearing a poppy over there. Keep that sort of thing for football matches.

+1 from me. The modern Germany has a lot of “lessons” from the war structurally built in.

The Germans have taken a non-militaristic approach on board rather better than us

The Germans were forced to take a non-militaristic approach.

so it seems unnecessary if not provocative to be wearing a poppy over there.

HTF could wearing a poppy in Germany be considered provocative?

Keep that sort of thing for football matches.

What “sort of thing” is that?

What “sort of thing” is that?

fantasising about nuking the soviets?

maybe virtue signalling

That is exactly what wearing a poppy is.  I can show my support for something by giving money and remembering etc,. but I don’t need others to know that.  Wear a poppy by all means but don’t pretend it is anything else.

fantasising about nuking the soviets?

That’s exactly what our then Prime Minister wanted to do.

That’s exactly what our then Prime Minister wanted to do.

Doesn’t make it less of a fantasy, or a good idea. It would have been a terrible idea and resulted in the annihilation of millions of people. Which is what you wee objecting too earlier.

You do all know that the OP read a link about 8 posts in, was thankful for it, and has decided not to wear a poppy while in Germany…yeah?  😉

gobuchul

fantasising about nuking the soviets?

That’s exactly what our then Prime Minister wanted to do.

‘our’ prime minster! 😆 such a brit! you weren’t even born! 😆

I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.

Check out what’s happening in Yemen right now, where are the arms we sell to Saudi Arabia being used? Are you ashamed?

When you look back on the age of Empire’s, the UK actually did a better job than most.

I don’t know where to start on this one, better is a relative term among the 4 or 5 countries who were responsible

Doesn’t make it less of a fantasy, or a good idea. It would have been a terrible idea and resulted in the annihilation of millions of people. Which is what you wee objecting too earlier.

Quote the post where I said it was a good idea?

Can I assume this is the annual “fight about the poppy” thread then?

Well it will be won’t it? Every bloody year we get it.

I wear a yellow poppy in remembrance of last years “Great STW Poppy Battle” casualties.

Comparing strategic bombing with mass genocide?

Let’s not pretend that our bombing was always strategic.

Visited the Schindler factory in Krakow today.

Puts our silly poppy arguments into perspective, tbh.

When you look back on the age of Empire’s, the UK actually did a better job than most. However, as LP Hartley said,“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” It’s impossible to look at things from 200 years ago in a modern context.
Some of the people who were both perpetrators and victims of The Holocaust are still alive. It’s not ancient history.

Errrr Mau Mau….hello….we were putting people in internment camps and killing them immediately after world war 2.

Also, we had a very “hostile environment” policy towards Jews during WW2 and turned a lot of them away.

Don’t pretend we fought ww2 out of anything but national self interest, the “just war” was something concocted after we realised the full horror of the holocaust and after we felt bad about how the centuries of our own antisemitism contributed to it.

Germany internalised and learnt from it’s mistakes, it’s clear from Brexit that Britain hasn’t.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/brexit-talks-watching-a-country-make-a-fool-of-itself-a-1234143.html

No country in the world has cultivated arrogance the way Britain has. But the sad truth is: The former global power can’t even find its way to the door without tripping over its feet.

Nobody will feel offended. Maybe some people will even know what it stands for and feel ashamed that a wealthy country would leave the care for and rehabilitation of its veterans to charity.

Don’t pretend we fought ww2 out of anything but national self interest,

What should’ve happened then? Should Britain have kept out of it & waited to see which other countries were invaded?

In late 1938, Britain attempted to appease Germany and avoid another world war by signing the Munich Pact. This gave Germany “permission” to invade the contested Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. When Hitler invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia a few months later, it was clear that this attempt at appeasement did not work.

http://www.worldwar2history.info/in/Britain.html

Maybe some people will even know what it stands for and feel ashamed that a wealthy country would leave the care for and rehabilitation of its veterans to charity.

Exactly.  The fact we need charities for this, charities for elderly care etc. is not something to wear a badge about

Let’s not pretend that our bombing was always strategic.

Do you understand what “strategic” means?

The carpet bombing of cities was always strategic.

Also, we had a very “hostile environment” policy towards Jews during WW2 and turned a lot of them away.

Evidence please.

Don’t pretend we fought ww2 out of anything but national self interest

Of course. The self interest in not being conquered by Nazi’s and the destruction of Western democracy.

What would of been the “correct” reaction? Should we of made peace in 1940?

the “just war” was something concocted after we realised the full horror of the holocaust and after we felt bad about how the centuries of our own antisemitism contributed to it.

Ridiculous statement.

The full horror of the Holocaust was not realised until 1945.

The “just war” was not concocted. Go and read some real history. The attitude to the War in 1940 compared to 1939 was massive.

You do realise what the German army did in 1940?

You do understand what the ambitions of Germany were?

evidence please

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices

According to Whitehall And The Jews, 1933-1948 (Cambridge University Press), Louise London’s definitive account of British immigration policy and the Holocaust, “The process…was designed to keep out large numbers of European Jews – perhaps 10 times as many as it let in.” Around 70,000 had been admitted by the outbreak of the war, but British Jewish associations had some half a million more case files of those who had not.

Should have we made peace in 1940? Of course not – but don’t as I said – don’t pretend that we were fighting out of anything but self interest. We weren’t fighting to save the Jews in 1940, we weren’t fighting because Hitler was a dictator – we were fighting because Germany threatened our own position in the world order.

We weren’t fighting to save the Jews in 1940

Nobody has ever claimed that we were.

we weren’t fighting because Hitler was a dictator

Yes we were. Did you know that a democracy has never declared war on another democracy?

we were fighting because Germany threatened our own position in the world order.

Threatened our position? You mean that they intended to enslave us? Do you know what they did in occupied Europe?

Are you suggesting that going to War was wrong?

Errrr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_democracies

Threatened our position? You mean that they intended to enslave us? Do you know what they did in occupied Europe?

Are you suggesting that going to War was wrong?

No – just don’t pretend that we are somehow morally superior to Germany, at least they have come to terms with their past – even if, as you say, they have been forced to. It’s quite clear that we have not come to terms with ours.

No – just don’t pretend that we are somehow morally superior to Germany,

I don’t think anyone is, & in reality the majority of Germans before WW2 weren’t Nazis. but Adolf promised them all kinds when in some more reality he fancied a bit of world domination.

There was an enlightening comment by Albert Speer, Essel –

Hatred of the Jews was Hitler’s motor and central point perhaps even the very element which motivated him. The German people, the German greatness, the Empire, they all meant nothing to him in the last analysis. For this reason, he wished in the final sentence of his testament, to fixate us Germans, even after the apocalyptic downfall in a miserable hatred of the Jews…When speaking of the victims of the bomb raids, particularly after the massive attacks on Hamburg in Summer 1943, he again and again reiterated that he would avenge these victims on the Jews; just as if the air-terror against the civilian population actually suited him in that it furnished him with a belated substitute motivation for a crime decided upon long ago and emanating from quite different layers of his personality. Just as if he wanted to justify his own mass murders with these remarks.

I suspect all he fancied was to kill as many Jews as possible.

Do you understand what “strategic” means?

The carpet bombing of cities was always strategic.

I look forward to your evidence for this assertion.

we weren’t fighting because Hitler was a dictator

Yes we were.

I look forward to your evidence for this assertion

He’s being pedantic Ransos – technically strategic bombing covers bombing with the intent to demoralize – however, as far back as WW2 this had already been coined “terror bombing”.

in reality the majority of Germans before WW2 weren’t Nazis. but Adolf promised them all kinds when in some more reality he fancied a bit of world domination.

Cor, the brexit parallels 😀

The carpet bombing of cities was always strategic

Yes, it meant terrorism, which is exactly what it was.

He’s being pedantic Ransos – technically strategic bombing covers bombing with the intent to demoralize – however, as far back as WW2 this had already been coined “terror bombing”.

Then any kind of bombing is strategic.

“What was our strategy?”

“To incinerate 25,000 civilians and fleeing refugees while not targeting military or industrial infrastructure”