British steel- I'm being abit thick here. Please explain.

Poll by Sky News sugest 66% of british population favour nationalisation of PT steelworks.

Which is similar to the proportion of working adults who now make no net contribution to the running of the state.

Of course we did. Being 100% self-sufficient wasn’t an arbitrary ambition, but a potential necessity. It doesn’t change the fact though that we could have been self-sufficient if required and massively reduced the amount we relied on imported food. By your logic, an industry isn’t worth keeping unless it has a monopoly on supply.

Oh FFS we’ve NEVER been self-sufficient in food, at least not since the population explosion of the 18th century!

This graph may help explain why:

http://chartsbin.com/view/28k

In the 1980’s we were produced about 80% of our own food.

That’s great news, got a source for that?

with modern, high intensity farming techniques we could probably be self sufficient if we really wanted or needed to be.

Hmmmm. Google phosphates crisis. (Not that that is relevant to my point – if your comment above is correct I’m wrong in what I said.)

The Grundian

Self-sufficiency in food in the UK has been eroded since the 1980s: about 60% of food currently consumed here is grown here, down from nearly 80% in the mid 1980s, even though more varieties of food previously thought exotic are now grown in the UK.

Hmmmm. Google phosphates crisis.

I am not suggesting that high intensity farming is a good solution. That is a whole argument in itself, but it would be possible for the UK to produce enough food to feed the population if we really wanted to.

That it probably doesn’t make basic economic sense, is one thing but it’s possible in theory.

I’m less relieved now. 60pc is less encouraging than 80pc and they’re building on farmland and raising the population as we speak.

Just reported on BBC news now that the starting salaries at PT is/was £30K. Surprised me, would have thought it would be much lower.

and the starting salary for someone who kicks a ball around is much higher, id have thought they would be grateful to be paid in sweets.

It would also help if we could all develop a “buy British” policy when possible, rather than the very Yorkshire selfish “I’ll not be ripped off”.

A “buy British” policy here means a “don’t buy British” policy everywhere else in the world. I doubt there are many manufacturers here that would want to live without an export market.

doubt there are many manufacturers here that would want to live without an export market.

Isn’t that what we are already seeing…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/31/britain-courts-fate-on-brexit-with-worst-external-deficit-in-his/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

I think this sums it up

@kona the French promote “buy French”, restaurants make a point of saying their meat is French etc. Obviously steel is a bit different but I do believe we as citizens have to take action and not think everything is the governments responsibility

Oh FFS we’ve NEVER been self-sufficient in food, at least not since the population explosion of the 18th century!

Yup. That’s what the evidence suggests to me.

Paul Mason popped up on Newsnight the other day. Here’s a longer piece by him

https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/steel-crisis-they-do-not-give-a-shit-86516750a1e0#.kbaxd0pip

b r – Member
…Oh FFS we’ve NEVER been self-sufficient in food, at least not since the population explosion of the 18th century!…

True, but then we had an empire to exploit and the world’s most powerful navy, so there was no chance of supply lines being cut for long enough to make a difference. In WW2 4 million odd Indians died of starvation that we might eat. Couldn’t see that happening now.

If the UK was isolated now we’d be turning up our toes in record time.

I suppose it’s time I came to terms with the decline of the UK as a manufacturer after all successive governments don’t care/understand its importance. These governments are fully supported by people living here who will buy any thing as long as its cheap with no thought to the future. Al least they and there kids will never complain about lack of jobs or opportunity, low pay, underfunded services and the general decline of our society. After all it’s not as though there are examples in the world of successful manufacturing and mixed economy countries is there.
I wonder why Tata are planning to purchase a steel manufacturer in Germany?

Does Osborne care? How many of those that will be affected are Tory voters? How many of those who would benefit from China trade are likely to be Tory voters?

What irks me is a leadership should look after all spectrums of political and parts of society. It shows a depth and breadth of leadership.

Thanks for that gwaelod. As on a lot of subjects, Paul Mason absolutely nails it.

A great piece here on the only ‘industry’ that is actually deemed worthy of being bailed out….

In Shotton in North wales, when the steelworks suddenly stopped producing steel and became a reprocesing centre 12,000 workers lost their jobs, biggest single redundancy in europe at the time.

Lots of them just signed on or went on disability, due to ill health, and if youve ever worked on production at a steelworks by 55 youre knackered.

A few of the brave invested in small buisness, shotton had a lot of pound type shops, selling market traders stuff, most failed, some went onto drive buses and lgv,s, and other low paid jobs.

Today shotton has a pets at home, b and m store, an asda and thats about it, a few large industrial units assembling stuff and a few making stuff for sale, the towns locally are run down the local air base closed many years ago and is now derelict.

Drugs and crime are on the increase, the local council is spending millions on new traffic lights and junctions, while closing stuff down and now the workers left at Shotton may be for the chop, 800 plus workers loosing their jobs, with all the contractors and outside workers also going.

Then theres the loss of training, skills base and good wages, all face the people of Port Talbot and south Wales.

Then theres the loss of training, skills base and good wages, all face the people of Port Talbot and south Wales.

It was noted that the only other major employer in the area is Amazon, where everyone is on the living minimum wage, and zero hours contracts.

Seems the aim of successive governments to de-skill the economy until thats what everyone is on

what tata own https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Group

These governments are fully supported by people living here who will buy any thing as long as its cheap with no thought to the future.

This is the crux of it. There is a collective myopia in this country which has been created and encouraged by successive governments, both tory and labour. The general view is that we are entitled to the wealth, security and stability we enjoy but expect to bear none of the responsibilities that go with it. One of those responsibilities should be supporting industries and communities in times of hardship. We have the collective resources, skills and power to do it, but sadly not the will.

I’d add to that the no matter how massive the contribution an industry has made to the countries wealth in the past, this is instantly forgotten the second it gets into trouble. Then it immediately becomes a pariah, unworthy of state assistance.

There is only one exception to this. One industry that is forgiven any transgression, no matter how enormous and distasteful!

@hora see Cameron’s comments on Labour’s track record on steel, anyome trying to make a politcal point Tory vs Labour is very much an opportunist clutching at straws. We are as usual going round in circles on stw but the state of manufacturing is our responsibility as citizens. It is us who have made it what it is.

@jambalaya- you are right no political party/government can be blamed more than the other but the one in power must show some leadership. The moment China increased tariffs on a steel made in the UK, then we should unilaterally do the same. In fact if you are a believer in free trade (as I am), then all countries that add tariffs to to any UK imported goods should have the same done to anything they try to import to the UK. The same should be done to any product imported at below the cost of production.
Whilst we are on it, how many on here are driving around in a car not made in the UK? What else have you bought that you should have bought made in the UK?
If your skin and have no choice thats fine but if you can afford it buy UK first is a moral responsibility you have for be wealthy (2 holidays a year? your rich). If we won’t help ourselves and our friends family and neighbors, who’ll help us. And while I’m on me high moral horse, are buy your stuff from tax dodging suppliers? Yes well shut it about the state of services from the NHS through to your local council. Tax is what pays for it all, the more UK made kit we buy, the more aggressive avoiders we don’t buy from the tax take there is. And relax….

In its present state Port Talbot is simply not a viable business.

The only questions that matter therefore are:

1. Does it have a realistic potential to become a viable business again?

2. What are odds for/against that happening?

3. What is it going to cost?

4. Is anyone in the private sector with the necessary capital willing to take that risk?

5. If not, is the UK Govt./taxpayer willing to take that risk?

I suspect the answers are:

1. Yes. The site profitability can be improved, e.g. by increasing production of top end premium products.

2. Dunno, but even if the necesary investment were a given, the excess global steel capacity probably means the competition for that premium end of the market is going to be very fierce and there will probably only be a few winners, and lots of losers. So it’s probably a high risk bet.

3. At a guess somewhere between £5Bn to £10Bn over 5+ years.

4. The board of Tata understand the market and the risks better than anyone else, and they’ve decided to fold on Port Talbot and Tata Steel UK. It’s difficult to imagine any of their major competitors deciding they know better and buying Port Talbot: both Tata and its competitors will already have other steelworks in their groups where they have decided they will get a better (chance of a) return on the sort of investment Port Talbot would need.

5. Given the above, it’s difficult to see the UK Govt. deciding to nationalise Port Talbot and the rest of Tata Steel UK.

Seems the aim of successive governments to de-skill the economy until thats what everyone is on

You seem to be either (1) crediting politicians with supernatural powers or (2) making things up. Neither are true and, like Masons gibberish about not giving a shit, are obviously divorced from reality. One only has to look at Parliamentary briefing notes to see the list of measures that governments have already implemented to address some of the issues facing the industry. But they are immortal and we should know by now, possessing of limited power and resources.

We have seen time and time again that politics can trump the basic laws of economics in the short term, but economic reality always wins in the end. It was ever thus..look at the failure of the €.

BTW binners – I am not a banks apologist but – why keep ignoring all the penal policies that the givernment has implemented agains their so-called friends – remuneration caps, extra taxes via levies, restrictions on certain activities etc.? Arguments simply lose credibility when wrapped up in obvious untruths. What’s the point?

If your skin and have no choice thats fine but if you can afford it buy UK first is a moral responsibility you have for be wealthy (2 holidays a year? your rich).

That’s a weird definition of morals

If we won’t help ourselves and our friends family and neighbors, who’ll help us.

There is a long history that shows protectionism does not help. Merely a ST sugar fix. You need real policies not simple sound bites.

And while I’m on me high moral horse, are buy your stuff from tax dodging suppliers?

Guilty as charged – used Google’s free search engine to improve my knowledge of global steel; bought a book from Kindle to help with work and had a very average cup of coffee from Starbucks. I hang my head in shame. Anyone else or are we all ethically pure?

at least you are honest thm, you’ll have nowt to moan about then since knowingly supporting tax dodgers is your thing. Are you in manufacturing? How does your line of employment get funded?

I never mentioned protectionism (tariffs should only be used to level the fair trade field), I said buying UK made stuff if possible even if it cost more. There’s plenty of us that can afford it, and it’s not a weird moral to say those that can afford it should make purchases that keep people in work in the UK (to think otherwise is selfish). Those UK workers can then pay tax here. You can then have your hospital, school, road or what ever else you think is not your responsibility to pay for.

None of us is perfectly clean on the payment to tax dodgers/avoiders (BT, Tesco, Vodaphone, Amazon and loads more). When ever possible, once I know what they are up to tax wise I don’t use them. BT has me by the bo..ocks though, there will be a time though and they can swivel.

It’s about what you think is right and I don’t think its right to help these companies not pay there way. You can disagree, let hope A&E is there next time you need it.

at least you are honest thm

Well you did bring morals into the debate…

since knowingly supporting tax dodgers is your thing

Oh dear spoke too soon, back with the devil’s lot again

None of us is perfectly clean on the payment to tax dodgers/avoiders (BT, Tesco, Vodaphone, Amazon and loads more)

Shall we start a club for the morally reprehensible of STW? We can be founder members and many to follow for sure….

I don’t think its right to help these companies not pay there way.

Don’t be too hard on yourself, you are not alone. And if it’s just the two of us, the pint’s on me.

let hope A&E is there next time you need it.

Indeed, let’s hope so!

There are reports today that Port Talbot might be closed in as little as six weeks! As someone who grew up in the town that is crazy.

easy to do switch off blast furnace allow to cool, turn off furnaces allow to cool and sell off all the stock, make workers redundant, thats what happened at my old steelworks

There is a long history that shows protectionism does not help

think it rather depends on what example you pick- remember Rolls Royce being baled put?
What about when the US baled out the ariline industry post 911 – that even went on to make a profit

What about the banks recently – they will be turned around.

Some folk simply think the market is perfect even when things like this happen. You are one of them so forgive me for not wanting to hear your one sided evidence. The results on bales outs or protectionism is very very mixed t and your point wa ideological rather than evidence based.

look at the failure of the €.

Like a broken record – you will still be saying it in 30 years time]]IMHO that shows that with enough will politics can trump over economics. I accept the jury is still out on that one though but clearly, as its till operational, claiming it has failed is just wishful thinking on your part]

No amount of subsidy would have done the buggy whip manufacturers any good in the great buggy whip downturn of the 1890s – damn those bicycle manufacturers.

Much as I think the Tories are the nasty peasant crushing party, we can’t blame the govt for the failure of PT – but we can blame them for the lack of strategic planning, because what’s happening was predictable.

Private capital is always going to look after its own interests, so there’s only the govt to look after the weal of its citizens. A succession plan should have been made 5-10 years ago.

There’s no surprise in what’s happening. For a business to survive it has to continually upgrade, diversify, or die. The steel industry should be well aware of that because that was the secret of the great master Carnegie.

easy to do switch off blast furnace allow to cool, turn off furnaces allow to cool and sell off all the stock, make workers redundant, thats what happened at my old steelworks

And a £1 billion clean up bill just for Port Talbot according to the Financial Times.

The £450m pension fund deficit is supposed to be part of the problem too. If it does go tits up then the pensioners could lose 1/4 of their pensions.

And a £1 billion clean up bill just for Port Talbot according to the Financial Times.

massive amount of polution from the coke ovens,oil leaks,polluted water leaks, asbestos, and heavy metals, the list goes on.

and then a supermarket and low cost housing builder builds on the site eventually

The £450m pension fund deficit is supposed to be part of the problem too. If it does go tits up then the pensioners could lose 1/4 of their pensions.

pensions are guaranteed by the government scheme to protect them, unles they change the rules again

The pension is a major headache as is the fact that Tata is now looking at a merger with Tyssen – K so I imagine they would prefer a UK supplier to be taken out of the market – so let’s hope the government knows what it’s doing.

A succession plan should have been made 5-10 years ago.

And what would that have looked like? Would it have imagined a doubling of Chinese production, a collapse in commodity prices and the extent of job losses seen to date? If so, what would they have done about it?

teamhurtmore – Member
“A succession plan should have been made 5-10 years ago.”
And what would that have looked like? Would it have imagined a doubling of Chinese production, a collapse in commodity prices and the extent of job losses seen to date? If so, what would they have done about it?

Dunno.

When I was in business I had contingency plans for all sorts of eventualities – including a bank crash – but I had no knowledge of the future.

If I had that ability I would be sitting on the beach at Monaco right now being fed peeled grapes by scantily clad lovelies and be having my feet bathed in champagne by bankers…

If a simple soul like me can see the need for contingency plans, then surely the govt has economic experts who can point out potential risks and come up with similar contingency plans for strategic industries – otherwise what’s the point of them?

And what would that have looked like? Would it have imagined a doubling of Chinese production, a collapse in commodity prices and the extent of job losses seen to date? If so, what would they have done about it?

It would have looked like Port Talbot starting its restructuring and upgrading 5 years sooner, and I suspect that would have ensured its future, since the investment made would probably have meant that by now it would have been well placed to be the one of the winners of the race to supply the top end steel sheet products.

And you can see their advice and the extent of their planning on various briefings – it’s all on the government website. The idea that they have done nothing or not though about it, is pretty far fetched IMO

But let’s take Mason’s criticism that Javed is/was unable to provide Tata with long term stability – what a ridiculous accusation in a commodity industry but typical of the the hogwash being bandied around this week. As you indicate if Javed was that impressive, he wouldn’t be wasting his time being business secretary – he would be in Monaco already