British steel- I'm being abit thick here. Please explain.

Well yeah but they can subsidize by selling us all the plastic shit we used to make….

Hang on.

Except when it does. Like when it involves their mates. In which case there are limitless public funds available…

From which we have determined that the bank bailout occurred undera different government, was not unlimited, and did not involve so-called mates. And with piccies, complements

When The govt closed Consett it was making a profit. Some things are done just to punish people who don’t vote the right way.
£365,000,000 a year losses with a workforce of 4,000. The company could pay everyone £45k a year not to come to work and still halve its losses.
Anyway, I thought our steel industry was uncompetitive because it was nationalised/ridden by ineficiency/ hobbled by the unions and that selling it off would lead to a modern, efficient, sustainable industry. Well, perhaps not.

In which case you’re talking about having people work in exchange for state benefits.

If we’re going to do that, let’s make it an industry with a future in the UK (which may or may not be steel) and lets roll it out for everyone who gets benefits.

That would be communism :-p

TBH, I do think that for some industries nationalization is a good thing, either because they’re symbiotically linked with the economy (banking), make large sums of money and however private they are can never exist outside the country (oil and gas, power generation etc), or strategically important (transport, why are motorways nationalized, M6 toll excepted, but railways privatized?).

Surely the real problem is so called free trade?

It’s not a level playing field. We can always buy cheaper from countries which have lower or no environmental controls and poor working conditions.

If we are going to insist on high environmental standards from our local industries, we shouldn’t penalise them by allowing competition from those who don’t meet those standards. There should be a way to adjust for that and make it a level playing field, and if that means tariffs based on the environmental savings, too bad.

We’re too concerned about protecting the multinationals idea of free trade, and not concerned enough about what’s fair for our local industries and workers.

Too many of our politicians are in the pockets of those who benefit from destroying our industries.

Otherwise we end up exporting our jobs, our industries, and our economy, which we have.

Port Talbot alone loses £360m per year. Is that a good use of tax payers money year in year out ?

I don’t think that’s true, it is for all of Tata’s UK operations, which is more than just PT.

I’d say in the whole scheme of things for a strategic industry that employs a skilled workforce then it isn’t that costly and eventually the global economy will turn around. These plants have made money in the not too distant past.

As posters above have said we all are happy to buy from the cheapest online seller and buyers of steel are doing the same

At the bottom end of the market yes, but not at the top end. The big problem is the users of the higher quality steels aren’t buying right now. Construction and the O&G industries who were big buyers are putting stuff on ice. The fallacy that manufacturing can pull you out of a slump is evident.

It’s not a level playing field. We can always buy cheaper from countries which have the lower or no environmental controls and poor working conditions.

If we are going to insist on high environmental standards from our local industries, we shouldn’t penalise them by allowing competition from those who don’t meet those standards

This times 100

Its losing a million a day. But in comparison, how much will it cost the country to have an entire areas economy completely decimated

I think this is a good point but I doubt Gideon and co will care much. In the grand scheme of things it’s a small amount compared to what we spend on other ‘stuff’ in this country, the price of a few metres of new motorway, a tiny fraction of annual nuclear decom spend, etc.

Ravenscraig

My mum worked at Ravenscraig! They loved living down there, not sure what it’s like these days.

If steel production goes the impact on the UK overall will be relatively limited.

We would become toothless, Jambers think of the bigger picture, would you really want our boys going into battle in tanks made from cheap steel, do you want cheap steel in bridges, railway lines, steam pipes !!! steam can be pretty deadly stuff.Shall we just throw our standards out because the money jugglers in their glass and steel towers say the impact is limited. I work in an industry were quality steel is essential, I don’t know anyone buying Chinese steel yet, god forbid when the last of the British steel runs out.

How can a country that has been totally reliant for both survival and prosperity on their own production of quality steel allow this industry to die ??

It’s not a level playing field. We can always buy cheaper from countries which have the lower or no environmental controls and poor working conditions.
If we are going to insist on high environmental standards from our local industries, we shouldn’t penalise them by allowing competition from those who don’t meet those standards

Large government infrastructure projects and frameworks are bound by European law to advertise contracts within the European union. Procurement departments do have the facility to award contracts on a mixed basis of quality and price. The quality factor can and often does include Environmental and social standards. I believe the government has recently made the social and economic part of the decision even more flexible.

A lot of steel for government projects comes from Arcelor mills in Europe, not China.

Clearly, at the moment it’s not enough. My heart goes out to these communities, the human cost of economic decisions is tragic and the negative consequences can last for generations. 😥

The thing is its not just the direct jobs at the steel plants but all the tertiary companies that rely on the steel works for a large proportion of their income.
I’m not sure of the exact figure but I think it was for every one person working in the steep plant two more relied on it for their job.

From which we have determined that the bank bailout occurred under a different government, was not unlimited,

Where did we establish it wasn’t unlimited? You saying it wasn’t, doesn’t make it a fact. The government turned the public money taps on, then kept them flowing through QA, so that the banking industry is still on a publicly funded life support machine today.

How is that not unlimited?

Which government it occurred under is frankly irrelevant. Their almost evangelical neoliberal worship of the financial sector, and the craven indulgence of its every whim was identical across the political spectrum.

As was the complete abandonment of the Manufacturing industry which has led us to where we are today

I live in Neath, close to Port Talbot.

The effect of the closure at Port Talbot will have a very big impact on the South Wales community. Its not just the steelworkers, but all the suppliers, contractors, money spent by the steel workers in the local economy.

I haven’t got an answer to the dilemma that is faced by Tata and the work force, having been through a similar experience in the aluminum industry ( big aluminium rolling plant at Rogerstone).

Interestingly, or not, Tata UK and, I think, all bar one other UK steel producer, are falling foul of US anti-dumping regs and look likely to be hit with an anti-dumping tariff of around 36%

no_eyed_deer – Member

Biscuits, anyone..?

Bike Park Port Talbot could be quite nice. Big sand dunes of the back for playing around on fat bikes – and plenty of interesting architectural features to build some totally way sick lines off of.

Jus’ sayin..

Are you familiar with the location of Afan Forrest Trail Centre? That was the one they built to try to regenerate that area when the mines closed 😉

I personally don’t think the next few weeks are going to be too kind to the Steel Industry, it doesn’t have the pull with Westminster that the Banks did – they sunk £8bn into RBS, of which George Osborne is happy to get £4Bn back (because he’s a slimy toad of a man who will happily sell us all short to help his mates out) and another £37bn in ‘free money’ for it to lend.

What won’t help TATA staff is that they’re largely based in PT I think, which of course is in Wales, and the Welsh Assembly is run by Labour, the Tories in Westminster wouldn’t give the WA the steam of it’s piss to help it out as any bad news in Wales reflected positively on Westminster.

@jambalya I know we’ve been round this a million times but the bank bailoit averted a far worse recession than the one we experienced.

For who?

For who?

Presumably anyone with a UK bank account, and anyone owed money by anyone with a UK bank account.

Where did we establish it wasn’t unlimited?

It wasn’t – go to any set of UK financial stats. Its clear.

You saying it wasn’t, doesn’t make it a fact.

Likewise. But the proof is in the pudding. Unlimited public funds were not made available. It is quite easy to quantify the size of the “investment” and the subsequent policies designed to re-coup some of it. You can even go to the National Audit Office to see how much has been re-couped and to what extent there has been a transfer from taxpayers to the financial sector – its quantified precisely because it was limited.

The government turned the public money taps on, then kept them flowing through QA, so that the banking industry is still on a publicly funded life support machine today.

Again (like tax) this is factually incorrect. QAE does not work like that – QE creates an equal asset and liability for a bank – it is not free money and is not about banks (directly) anyway.

Which government it occurred under is frankly irrelevant.

Agreed. Odd that you raised the issue and mixed the governments up at the same time.

Anyway – this doesn’t help the poor people of PT. For some reason my earlier post was changed. but FWIW I do not work in banking and I do have considerable sympathy for the plight of the workers at Tata and in the surrounding economy.

For who?

For everyone whose cashcards stopped working and had to revert to bartering?

We should have shot a few thousand bankers, but letting banks just disappear was never an option.

Don’t worry there’s a plan, a local enterrpise body will be set up to help the redundant steel workers piss away their severance pay on opening doomed from the off coffee shops and hair dressers and artisan shite weaving workshops. Bit like th model that worked so well for barrow.

As was the complete abandonment of the Manufacturing industry which has led us to where we are today

“complete abandonment” – not only inaccurate (again) but a considerable sleight on the UK’s successful manufacturing industry. In terms of output we are the 8th largest manufacturer in the world and our per capita production is 3x that of China which is the second only to US in terms of total manufacturing output.

Why the need to keep making factually incorrect statements?

It wasn’t – go to any set of UK financial stats. Its clear.

Go on then, show us a source that says “the limit is £XYXbillion, if you’re not sorted out within this budget and by AA/BB/20CC the taps are off and you’re left to fail”.

And even if that statement does exist, the fact we’ve nationalized several banks, and gone through multiple rounds of QE would suggest that if it’s not working, we’ll just go round again.

My mum worked at Ravenscraig! They loved living down there, not sure what it’s like these days.

The site was all set to become a “new town centre” after the dormant period had lapsed to allow all the toxic land to recover. Then the crash happened.

There’s a few pockets of new housing on the site, put up in the last few years, but largely still empty.

In terms of output we are the 8th largest manufacturer in the world and our per capita production is 3x that of China which is the second only to US in terms of total manufacturing output.

And thats been aided by successive governments fixated with the financial sector how exactly?

My point is that there has been no manufacturing strategy of any description for decades. Its been left to get on with it. Or not.

Can you give me a single example of government policy being geared towards helping the manufacturing industry? All I’ve seen is, at best, total indifference, and with Tory administrations: open hostility, as it would aid frightful working class people who live in horrid dark places where they don’t even have a Waitrose

Can you give me a single example of government policy being geared towards helping the manufacturing industry?

Minimum wage
Health and safety
To name a couple Shirley

for starters and an easy read

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-profit-bank-bailouts/21010

And even if that statement does exist [it does], the fact we’ve nationalized several banks,[2 plus recapitalised another 2] and gone through multiple rounds of QE would suggest that if it’s not working, we’ll just go round again.

Hmm, QE is something completely different and as above, is not free money for banks. What indications are there that we are about to nationalise/re-capitalise any more banks?

Why did the UK’s largest bank contemplate re-locating?

R&D support
Enterprise zones
You mentioned corporate tax rates (albeit not completely accurately)
Direct support for O&G industry

and that’s just for starters…

Why did the UK’s largest bank contemplate re-locating?

Is anyone gullible enough to believe they ever realistically did?

Yes, the central banks in the relevant companies, the regulatory authorities and many of their employees and their senior management would have been acting illegally if not, given that they informed the markets that they were reviewing location.

I accept, that you mght know better than all of them though….[slide 15 of their last annual presentation to investors suggests otherwise however]

Can you give me a single example of government policy being geared towards helping the manufacturing industry? All I’ve seen is, at best, total indifference, and with Tory administrations: open hostility, as it would aid frightful working class people who live in horrid dark places where they don’t even have a Waitrose

Binners, you persistently weaken your own arguments with this infantile Tories are evil rubbish. In any case, there are plenty of policies targeted towards manufacturing (grant schemes, tax credits of various sorts etc.), the issue is whether they are ever effective. What do you expect from the government? Dirigisme?

Do I have to inform the appropriate regulatory authorities if I say I’m going to find a cure for cancer then walk on water before 4 o clock this afternoon? Who do I speak too?

No why? Any relevance to the topic in hand

Binners, you persistently weaken your own arguments with this infantile Tories are evil rubbish

Indeed, lots to criticise the current government without making things up. But let’s see what, “if anything”, they come up with here ie, re Tata

Any “real world” examples of limitless public funds being made available?

Here’s another one. Commitment to spend two percent of GDP on military toys. Currently around £40 billion but no limit on what it could rise to:
Defence spending commitment

The UK government couldn’t give a toss about manufacturing. The only things they’ll fund in Wales are roads to England and the military:
RAF Valley future secured

you persistently weaken your own arguments with this infantile Tories are evil rubbish

Here’s about nine square miles of cursed earth that says, from my point of view, that it ain’t rubbish.

Evil.

People of Port Talbot – This is your future……

This was the past….

I don’t care about what they did for banks. I don’t care what they did for miners.

All I care for is that there are people in Port Talbot who lived there for generations – who know nothing other than British Steel – who will have their lives turned upside down because of a momentary blip in the life cycle of an industry.

In 10 years time, when normality resumes to world trade, what happens to all those people in Port Talbot who no longer have a living, or no realistic prospect of finding a new living?

We are talking about human beings. Not the balance of financial pro’s and con’s.

In 10 24 years time, when normality resumes to world trade, what happens to all those people in Port Talbot who no longer have a living, or no realistic prospect of finding a new living?

Come to Wishaw and have a look for yourself. It ain’t pretty.

Real world capatalism…don’t you just love it…such a humanistic and empathetic way to live our lives….

I thought Osborne’s plan was just too get the Chinese to come in and help us pay for reinvestmennt of this kind of thing, all for a ‘modest’ fee a few years down the line, it’s worked really well for Hinkley-point 😉

Ultimately the government doesn’t want to upset Osborne’s ridiculous targets so I can’t see the government doing what’s needed to help out steel

Tho they did renationalise the loss making Network Rail last year on the quiet, to make sure all the privatised rail complaints shareholders were happy

People of Port Talbot – This is your future…..

They don’t need patronizing bollocks likes this, that whole region was based on heavy industry, most of which is now shut, with the BP Chemical plant going back in 2004.

Come to Wishaw and have a look for yourself. It ain’t pretty.

In fairness Wishaw was never pretty, even back then.