British Cycling statement: Transgender and Non-Binary Participation Policy

You make it sound like a choice between peas or beans for tea. It’s not a choice in that respect, it’s a necessity for those affected by it.

Why do we make allowances for others in society? Because it’s the mark of a decent civilised society.

I agree that if someone was transitioning just to be competitive then that wouldn’t be right, but once again the overwhelming evidence is that this is not happening. The very few people that are both TG and elite athletes are first and foremost the former and accept the impact that their treatments have on their competitiveness, particularly when the dose rates are sufficient to feminize (let’s be honest this is almost exclusively a MTF TG issue) rather than ‘just enough to pass the testosterone test’ .

As I’ve suggested before look at the Pippa York cafe ride on p1, spend 15 mins listening and maybe you might rethink.

In the end I don’t think a blanket inclusion or exclusion will work, but the ‘there’s two sexes, that’s all we need for competition and anything else is a choice with consequences’ is quite offensive.

there’s two sexes, that’s all we need for competition and anything else is a choice with consequences’ is quite offensive.

why do you find the biological facts offensive? It’s straightforward science or do we need to have alternative facts to not offend anyone even if they aren’t true?

Personal choice is yours but don’t inflict it on the rest of us.

1) the choice is only to be honest with yourself, rather than hide away because of the attitudes of others

2) our societies aren’t just for “people like me”, or “the rest of us” as you put it, but for everyone

the biological facts offensive?

The biology we are born with is not everything, as all of us who have had operations, or rely on insulation pumps will tell you. Many of us would be dead if we were to not embrace the fact that bodies can be changed.

two biological sexes is not offensive. I accept and believe that [edit – with some chromosomal outliers as discussed elsewhere – but that’s not what we’re discussing here]

The fact is that sex doesn’t mean the same as gender and gender identity and finding an inclusive solution to that is what is needed. That it can be reduced by a couple of posters who won’t see beyond sex as the only possible solution, and calling it a choice with consequences is offensive, in the sense that it offends me.

It’s not just you who finds this simplistic ‘basic biology is the only thing’ arguements offensive @theotherjonv 👍
Keep up the good work and know there are people out here who are impressed with your clarity and patience.
I’m learning a lot.

The fact is that sex doesn’t mean the same as gender and gender identity and finding an inclusive solution to that is what is needed.

i agree entirely they are not the same thing. But when it comes to elite sport there needs to be a way of determining category that is based on scientific facts and not what some one chooses to say they are.

Thanks Lister (and others)

I had a conversation about this on the club run today. As I’ve disclosed my son is TG / AFAB. Socially transitioned and lives his life as a boy, and we’re seeking to medically transition privately.

He’s fallen out of love with sport, despite being a talented basketballer there’s no way he can compete with 16 yo boys; particularly those that are suited to basketball because they’re all getting to 6ft+ now. I guess some would say that’s his choice and consequence, he could technically still qualify for girls teams, but that would be impossible to him. Anyway, that’s not the point.

His other passion is and always has been theatre and performance. He auditions for, and wins leading roles as a boy/man. Other AMAB boys don’t get these roles because he does. He may even be advantaged, not physiologically but because as a younger girl he did dance classes in a way that most boys didn’t / wouldn’t (stereotyping I know!) and consequently has that background.

IDK if parents mutter and complain behind the scenes, we don’t see anything but support from the casting people, creatives and directors he works with.

The person I was discussing with started from a position that there was no place for TG women in women’s sport. They didn’t however see a problem with him playing male roles, even to the detriment of other boys. When asked why it was OK their best answer was that theatre has historically been inclusive.

I don’t think they got the point that they were arguing that sport doesn’t need to be. Or indeed that theatre may be the same as sport but just 30 or 40 years more evolved in its understanding of inclusivity.

there needs to be a way of determining category that is based on scientific facts

I agree. But I think more work needs doing to establish what those facts are, and don’t think sex at birth is the right criteria for all sports.

and not what some one chooses to say they are.

By the same token, I agree. But you can’t just declare yourself a woman and start winning…… as you well know. And the process of transitioning substantially reduces your competitiveness / chances (have you looked at the Pippa York video yet?) – but that also needs clearer study and definition.

Including one of the GP’s that we have asked to support us with private prescriptions

Maybe refer to said GP as master (not doctor nor mister as they will think they’re a consultant) and use it to remind him/her how insulting it is to get nomenclature wrong.

It’s straightforward science or do we need to have alternative facts to not offend anyone even if they aren’t true?

Biology is one of the least straightforward sciences there is and PPE graduates, the public and non-biologists struggle with it as a result. (I include myself in the struggling category too, it’s much too wooly at times for someone who enjoyed applied maths, trigonometry and physics/chemistry).

Reading through this thread we were doing so well until the usual suspects turned up.

When you understand that being Trans is no more a choice than being blonde or being tall then we can move forward.

No one, NO ONE, would choose to be Trans. It causes the worst possible levels of self loathing

Yes, you can choose whether or not to transition, but for so many, the choice is “Transition or suicide”, because being in a body of the wrong gender is totally intolerable.

Imagine tomorrow you wake up and instead of a penis, you have a vagina and breasts. Your brain still says you are a man but your body is female. Would you be alright with that? Or would your brain be shrieking at you all day that everything was wrong, that you have things that you shouldn’t have and didn’t have things that you should have?

Imagine that. Every single minute of every day. How long could you put up with that for? How long before you hated your body so much that you punished it by cutting it and stabbing it?

The only way out of this madness involves incredibly painful surgery, drugs which will shorten your life, and informing your friends, family and colleagues that the person they thought they knew doesn’t exist in the way they thought they did. You will lose people who are important to you, you will hear many very painful things. The chances are very high that you will receive verbal and physical abuse, probably regularly.

But people do it because it’s the only way of preserving any sanity at all.

For many, it’s not a “choice”, it’s the only possible means of survival.

Now how that works with professional sport is a massive conundrum. It’s impossible to get it right for every person and every group. But at least now we are recognising the issue and trying to move forward. Every journey starts with a single step.

So for all the “scientists” who still can’t tell the difference between sex and gender, please do some reading on the subject. Educate yourselves, learn some empathy. Then your random spoutings on the subject might be a little less offensive to those of us who are very closely affected by this issue.

@theotherjonv you rock. Your son is so lucky to have you as a father. My trans friend hasn’t seen or heard from her parents since they threw her out when she was 15. That was 15 minutes after she told them she was trans and 25 years ago.

And a big plus one for @boriselbrus.

Be humane with people who’s birth gender assignment went wrong and be thankful one will personally never have to tussle with that conundrum. Anything else is an abrogation of rule 1.