Brexit benefits – lets start a list

that’s democracy it’s that simple

Yes, and there are many laws around voting to ensure it is fair and the result reflects the decision of an informed electorate.  Voting without adhering to these laws is not democracy.

Which brings us back to the advisory referendum…

As an aside, all the Brits I knew in France are still here 6 years on . All but three now have French nationality thus assuring the French economy benefits from their talent. Two of the three are going through the formalities and will no doubt be successful. The reamining one’s wife successfully applied for French nationality but he didn’t even apply for reasons unknown – but he’s very British.

On the other hand the two people I knew working in the UK gave up and returned to France. Both hotel workers on the south coast, one a chef.

Government stats back up these anecdotal observations  but I’ve failed to find numbers for those obtaining nationality as oposed to being on the other side of the Channel with residency.

I agree with Kelvin. Any economic suicide has already happened since Brexit so its hard to see how it could be any worse

Which brings us back to the advisory referendum…

You’ll need to get behind me in the long line of folks waiting to give Cameron a shoeing I’m afraid.

All but three now have French nationality thus assuring the French economy benefits from their talent.

Anecdotes… everyone I know from home now living in an EU country has either pushed for citizenship or is working on it. Being a Brit abroad has changed for many people. That’s a Brexit benefit perhaps, for them and their chosen homes.

On the other hand the two people I knew working in the UK gave up and returned to France.

To my surprise; most of the European* clinicians (mostly dentists) I recruited, some waaay back in 2015, are nearly all still here, something like 18 out of 20.

*Polish, Spanish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Estonian…from all over.

somewhere between 2 and 4 of every ten people you might see in the street don’t want to rejoin. Given everything that has gone on, that is incredible and depressing.

It’s neither incredible or depressing. For reasons I’ve already explained, the one thing leaving the EU has achieved is exposing the lie that our membership of it was the source of many of the problems we have. Knowing that why would anyone be that bothered about rejoining when there are much bigger fish to fry? Ask those 20-40% of people whether we should rejoin they’d almost certainly tell you we should sort out the NHS first, along with Social Care, Schools, energy prices, lack of affordable housing and many other things which directly affect them. The fact that you prioritise rejoining the EU exposes your (relative) lack of concern for these other things, so it’s little wonder that these people don’t agree with you.

*Polish, Spanish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Estonian…from all over.

When you see them, thank them.

The fact that you prioritise rejoining the EU exposes your (relative) lack of concern for these other things, so it’s little wonder that these people don’t agree with you.

You can be concerned about all those things and consider closer links to our neighbours as part of the solution to them, rather than something abstract and unconnected from them.

That Irish data is questionnable. A cursory look at average net incomes are UK £596pw and Ireland £602. Many businesses are ‘based’ in Ireland for tax reasons and benefits do not accrue to locals. There are downsides like paying to visit the GP etc which get overlooked.

If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn’t Starmer getting in front of that crowd?

It would perhaps be interesting having a roll call thread for STW members who have obtained nationality of an EU country they are resident of or have family links to. 10-20 I’d guess.

I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he’s a Brexiteer who hadn’t appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.

Edit: Starmer can afford a golden passport, he doesn’t feeel concerned, and he’s too rich to care about anyone else IMO 🙁

If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn’t Starmer getting in front of that crowd?

Because it depends where that crowd live doesn’t it? I’d wager that the most pro-remain/re-join areas are nearly all large metropolitan areas, and  traditionally labour voting  whereas most of seats Labour need to win are in “no-longer voting Labour” or “never voted Labour” leave areas.

Rejoining isn’t a viable option. The EU wouldn’t want us back at the moment, and there are far more urgent problems to solve.

The EU might not want the UK back as a full member but has repeatedly offered a Norway type deal.

I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he’s a Brexiteer who hadn’t appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.

I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven’t changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.

The EU might not want the UK back as a full member but has repeatedly offered a Norway type deal

Have they?

dazh
Full Member
I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he’s a Brexiteer who hadn’t appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.

I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven’t changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.

I’m a Brit living in Finland and most likely know many more EU nationals than you with a different experience, and also Brits being forced to leave Finland or being denied residency status post Brexit.

Have they?

Not as far as I’ve seen, but @Edukator may have different info. It would have to be a singular deal for the UK though, as last I did read about it, 1. the current members of EFA weren’t keen on having an economy the size of the UK joining their wee club that suits them all just fine thanks, and 2. The rabid Brexiteers would never stand for it, the Norway option was always a lie, they didn’t want it back when it was on the table and they sure as shit don’t want it now.

I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven’t changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.

My life hasn’t changed either.

But then I left the UK pre-Brexit and haven’t tried moving anywhere since.  Do you think I might have a different experience moving to another EU country now?

Or is that just Project Fear?

Increased profits through the reintroduction of EU roaming charges

Funnily enough, I don’t pay roaming charges on my German sim in the UK.

andytherocketeer

There were several other annoying acquaintances that used to cling on like a turd stuck to your butt-beard, and brexshit/trump was the perfect event to wipe them away for good.

quote of the day right here, chapeau (chapoo?)

…and so another thread has descended into a socialist rebuke of capitalism. People of the left and right detest what Brexit has done to this country.

If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn’t Starmer getting in front of that crowd?

Because the ensuing shit-show would ruin politics for another decade or more and cause even more of a breakdown of politics than we have. We need to get politics and government functioning again before we can even start.

Die thread die, why won’t you **** die 😠

I got an Irish passport, does that count as a benefit?

Previously I needed a trailer license to tow a decent trailer behind my van dispute having a licence to drive 20ton HGV. Now I don’t.

It’s nice, but not as nice as being able to work abroad.

I’m having trouble finding the articles I want because Norway-Uk trade deal dominates Google results. The most recent EU offer I could think of that key words produced what I was looking for was the offer of a Swiss type deal:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/20/hardline-brexiters-voice-fears-over-reports-of-swiss-style-eu-deal

The EU’s Brexit negotiator, Maroš Šefčovič, offered a Swiss-style trading agreement last June but it was rejected by Frost. The move is reportedly being considered by some in government, particularly while Sunak seeks to avoid a trade war with the EU and strike a deal on the Northern Ireland protocol.

As Barnier has consistently pointed out a better deal depends on Britain dropping its red lines and accepting the EU’s terms.

Bit of a tenuous one this.

Like it or not Brexit showed that the democratic process worked. More people voted leave than stay, so we left.

That ignores the fact that lots of people who voted leave believed the leave campaigns BS about the benefits and lots of people didn’t vote one way or the other.

So the other two benefits are hopefully that more people are inclined to vote in future and we’re all even more disinclined to believe politicians.

But I am clutching at straws here 🙁

Scottish / Welsh / Yorkshire independence anyone ?

Or that referendums will require 50% of voters rather than just 50% of voters who vote. And that everyone body gets a vote because voter supression is a real thing.

Now that we are out of the EU we can do a lot of stuff that we couldn’t do before

Such as?

You finally recognise the problem…    … but it had bugger all to do with being in the EU.

I agree with you on this. Our current state is due to the Tory governments we have had for the past decade or so. Without them there would have been no Brexit and with out Brexit there would have been no Tory government beyond 2016, propped up as it was by flag waving nationalists. Let’s hope the electorate see sense at the next election and get rid of this shower of shit before Scottish devolution plunges us into an even further right little England.

Like it or not Brexit showed that the democratic process worked

For a referendum but not how it works for a general election.

But I am clutching at straws here

Not really. The fact that politicians gave the people a choice on an issue as big as this goes against the popular view that politicians do what the hell they like and don’t listen to the voters. On this occasion, the people were given the decision and they decided. You can argue about the pros and cons of leaving, but you can’t really argue against giving people the power to make the decision. We need a lot more of it IMO.

But that’s where the devolution of decision making powers ended*. At no point since has any decision on what Brexit actually should mean been made with reference to what the population as a whole want, only what a small proportion of them want.

[* of course that devolution never actually happened, it was all advisory and decision making powers stayed with government and parliament, but hey, let’s pretend it did happen ]

As Barnier has consistently pointed out a better deal depends on Britain dropping its red lines and accepting the EU’s terms.

Exactly. And those red lines have never been voted on, and are not based on the wishes of the UK population. Only a minority in the UK has ever wanted to be outside the single market, or to do away with freedom of movement. None of this shows that our democracy is functioning well in the UK, only that it can be played and abused.

You can argue about the pros and cons of leaving, but you can’t really argue against giving people the power to make the decision.

Nonsense. Of course you can.

In fact the vast majority of stable democracy depends on some sort of qualified democracy – whether that’s FPTP, a qualified proportional representation (its always qualified in some way) or similar.

I am trying to think of a good example of successful direct democracy – probably because asking people the outcomes they’d like is generally sensible, but asking them to chose right the mechanism to achieve those outcomes less so.

When we do we get the mess we’re in delivering none of the outcomes any of the voters actually said they wanted.

Que rampant post-rationalisation.

Direct democracy requires constantly going back to the populous with refined and qualified questions to work out exactly what to do. One referendum a decade is not direct democracy in any meaningful way.

When we do we get the mess we’re in delivering none of the outcomes any of the voters actually said they wanted.

Well put.

On this occasion, the people were given the decision and they decided

With none of the checks and balances that an official referendum would have, like the leave campaign being allowed to tell a pack of lies and present several versions of what brexit might be.

So basically we had remain or about 7 different brexit varients… on what planet is that a level playingfield?

A threshold of 50% is also frankly crazy for such a fundamantal change given the above.

The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.

Can anyone actually remember what project fear was?

As I recall it was the Brexy claim that the remain advocates were trying to scare you with the benefits of remaining in the EU.

That about right?

It certainly seems to have been rewritten many times to claim remain folk said things they never did.

And amazingly some folk actually believe this Brexiteer nonsense.

4 pages in and there clearly are none, except towing trailers possibly.

Mods, can you close this thread now please.

We need a lot more of it IMO.

Hmmm. there’s a reason we’ve never been offered a referendum on bringing back capital punishment. Besides which the Brexit referendum was by far and away the worst version that we could’ve been offered. It didn’t even define what leaving meant, it didn’t offer qualification, didn’t say what would happen after the vote, no EU national living in the UK was allowed to vote, but British folks living in Australia and New Zealand somehow were?

We need to do much better if were going to ask the public for any more of their opinions.

…and so another thread has descended into a socialist rebuke of capitalism. People of the left and right detest what Brexit has done to this country.

Wait a few years when even more people aren’t benefiting from capitalism, because they’ve no capital – and this “socialism”, that’s the very thing YOU benefited from with your free-at-point-of-use healthcare, education, law & order etc etc.