the fact that you say leaving is a benefit without actually detailing a benefit says a lot

Leaving the EU as a benefit of voting to leave the EU is; in of itself an article of faith to some folks, it just is. It doesn’t need explanation or inspection.

Off the back of brexit I finally got round to applying for a German passport. Did so just in time that I didn’t have to decide to give up my British citizenship. Am dual nationality, but honestly, if I were applying now I would happily dump my UK passport in favour of freedom of movement.

Each time I return to the UK a little bit of my soul dies. It’s certainly not representative of the country I grew up in. I do miss pubs, though.

Another benefit is that by doing Brexit, we’ve strengthened the EU. In the long run, having a strong, powerful EU as a neighbour can only be a good thing for the UK, especially now that we are weakened by exiting.

Before Brexit, there was also talk of Frexit, Grexit, EverythingXit. That’s all dead now and the EU is stronger than ever as a result.

Had I known that would be the outcome I would absolutely have voted for it without a moment’s hesitation. Weird that Vote Leave did not tell us about this.

There will always be apologists who say that we just got the wrong sort of Brexit. Just like apologists for any political system that, at least partly, got corrupted by politicians.

But they are wrong. Given the people pushing Leave and the benefits bestowed on the UK by EU membership (and our extraordinary opt outs and vetoes) this was only ever going to go one way. Rule of thumb – don’t believe Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. Ever. Their lies were well documented well before 2016, but people chose to ignore that.

Or, looked at even more top-level, how did anyone think that a post-industrial, service-based economy would derive any benefit from leaving a club of nations at a similar point in their development? One that we share a land border with. It was unfathomable in 2016 and it is unfathomable now if you apply logic.

But it was never about logic or rationality and that is why the comparisons with a religion still stand up. We are where we are – zero benefits and lots of detriments for the masses, more money in the pockets of the few who were already rich enough to invest in the political heist of a lifetime. Again, not unlike organised religion.

MHRA and all other EU regulatory agencies were able to approve the vaccines (and other drugs) independently under existing statute. All countries have control over approvals, should they choose to execute them. UK did. For a UK vaccine with some relatively poor trials. Better trials came later. It wasn’t nothing to do with Brexit.

It’s  been a costly unmitigated disaster for us. But Son2 now has dual EASA and CAA pilot licenses and Son1 is in Dublin and will likely achieve nationality after completing his PhD.

So, was it a one-way deal? I mean, they didn’t kick us out, so can we get back in?

I’ll start the campaign, got nothing better to do.

It has hastened a united Ireland.

I thought that was a myth – we were still under the EU regs at the time.

We were,it was, there’s an interview of the person behind the rollout that actually explains this.

It has hastened a united Ireland.

I’m not going to die in a ditch over this, but I’m pretty sure that had we still been in the EU, politically we would have had to join the the European procurement/rollout of vaccines irrespective of any opt out that existed in law. People seem to have forgotten that the EU didn’t exactly cover itself with glory over this issue & quite a few countries were actively considering going it alone. (But didn’t because politics)  It is a myth that leaving the EU was the only legal way we could have gone it alone on vaccines, but I think in reality it wouldn’t have happened if we were still in Europe.

Wasn’t there a clause in the EU rules stating that in cases of emergency, such as a global pandemic, that individual governments could fast track things such as a vaccine rollout, so in theory it would have been the same even if we were still in the EU?

Benefit counter is back down to 0.

We have well and truly ****ed the country up for decades to come. But hey… Blue Passports!

Where are they printed BTW?

 but I’m pretty sure that had we still been in the EU, politically we would have had to join the the European procurement/rollout of vaccines irrespective of any opt out that existed in law.

Counter factually, it may have been the case that had we still been in the EU then our influence in this area may have changed the EU roll out as a whole. We’ll never know, and it’s somewhat irrelevant to the overall argument, as the Venn diagram of those supporting leave and being anti-vax has a pretty large overlap.

Why didn’t someone think of this 10 years ago?

I do miss pubs, though.

Last time I visited the UK the ones I used to go to had been closed and some even bulldozed. I don’t drink anymore so cafe culture and nobody being bothered if I order a hot chocolate or a beer means I still socialise beyond sport.

I’ve just checked, around 30% fewer pubs since I left the UK and about half the kind of small pubs I used to go to have closed.

On the vaccines front the view from Europe was that the UK was selfishly trying to monopolise vaccine supply and do the dirty on Europe which was producing the very RNA vaccines that enabled Britian to role out first having cut short the validation process.

Edit: one bonus is that on STW Brexit resulted in a hell of a clear out. A small number of Brexiteers still post with an elevated average age but many have left “chat” for good. Maybe Mark can produce some stats, I had a look through the original Brexit thread a while back and was struck by how many remain pseudos are still here and how many leave I haven’t seen for along time. Those that have gone were often **** irritating in other resects too, three that are still here still are but the others I’ve forgiven. 😉

People do know that there are EU countries that opted out of different stages of the vaccine rollouts, yes? Being uncooperative and using opt-outs and special clauses within the EU is a thing… “politically” friendly or not… we were one of the prime examples of that for decades.

reeksyFull Member
Why didn’t someone think of this 10 years ago?

I don’t actually believe that this thread would have been the same if it had been suggested 10 years ago.  I think it is interesting to re-read the first few pages of the Brexit thread. Enthusiasm for the EU was pretty limited with an awful lot of folks who subsequently became ardent remainers being ambivalent at best about the institution.  I’m as anti-Brexit as the next person on here, but it doesn’t hide the fact that the EU is far from perfect & it was much easier back then to identify the problems than the benefits, especially because nobody really believed we’d be stupid enough to vote leave.

kelvinFull Member
People do know that there are EU countries that opted out of different stages of the vaccine rollouts, yes?

Didn’t know that. Which ones and at what stage? Did any of them rollout vaccines faster than we did?

lots of benefits but I guess none of them are for Britain

EU parliament operating more efficiently without Farage and other British MEPs obstructing proceedings

as mentioned above, less immigrants (Gammon in Spain)

also, as mentioned above it has stopped all other talk re leaving the EU. I think there were two bluffs,

a) Cameron didn’t really expect the public to vote to leave, saw the referendum as a way to get the anti EU camp to finally give it a rest.
b) don’t think the British gov really thought the EU would let them leave. Thought the EU would come cap in hand begging them to stay offering some huge reduction in the amount Britain paid annually.

obviously both bluffs back fired massively

main con (for Ireland) is difficulty trading with Britain which would have been main trading partner

folks who subsequently became ardent remainers being ambivalent at best about the institution.

But they clearly stated they’d vote remain.

especially because nobody really believed we’d be stupid enough to vote leave.

I applied for French nationality at the time of the Iraq war because

1/ a strong affinity for where I live and where my son was born. An affinity with the values

2/Blair invaded Iraq despite Dominique de Villepin’s prophetic speech at the UN

3/ Blair was talking about a referendum on a treaty and I supected the British public would vote against anything European, I felt uncomfortable living in a place I wasn’t a national of.

Before the referendum we tranfered most of our UK assets to Europe, I really believed.

I hoped for a remain vote (I didn’t have a vote because I hadn’t been Uk resident for 30 years), I was deeply saddened by the leave vote (and a tad annoyed, stupidity always annoys me) but in my heart of hearts I was expecting it.

Increased profits through the reintroduction of EU roaming charges.

The richest in the world per capita

Infrastructure is still very poor and undeveloped though, with a good few ‘social issue’ especially in Dublin. It’s a long way from being the Switzerland of the north that it wants to be.

Ok

especially because nobody ( except edukator) really believed we’d be stupid enough to vote leave.😉

I think that  photo of Boris the morning after the result tells it all

main con (for Ireland)

I would argue Ireland is the biggest benefciary of Brexit. It now has the highest per capita GDP in the world, all it needs to do is sort out its internal politics so that all the Irish benefit.

Edit; crossed posts with you, Caher. I agree, you can make similar comparisons with Norway or Luxemburg. The wealth is there and there’s the potential for the Irish state to more fairly redistribute it, it’s up to them.

Switzerland has its own issues, half a million Swiss live elsewhere in Europe with many being frontaliers. Poor Swiss can’t afford to live in Switzerland. I used to work for a Swiss company, one of the management, a Swiss working in France,  knew he’d never be rich enough to return to Switzerland.

I would happily dump my UK passport in favour of freedom of movement.

Same.

I thought that @crosshair  was being ironic but re-reading his post I’m not so sure.

@crosshair are you really (still) supporting Brexit?  If so please enlighten us as to why?  I don’t often get the chance to get the view from the other side so it’d be great to hear your views.

Switzerland has its own issues

I Know, i lived there for 5 years and was glad to leave in the end but i’ll live abroad again just not somewhere so up tight.

Just in my industry , aviation. European licensed pilots are allowed to fly for uk airlines. Uk licensed pilots can’t fly for European ones. All signed off and agreed by UK gov/CAA. Thanks a lot 😣

Not only has my retirement dream of sailing the med for 2 years been made nigh impossible, but travel/education/work opportunities overseas for my children have disappeared too.

I used to be a proud Brit, now I’m an embarrassed one. I’d move in a heartbeat if I still could.

Schadenfreude as all the racist pensioners with homes in Spain have discovered all too late that “send them back where they came from” also applies to them.

Just for balance (we are obliged to give balanced coverage these days aren’t we?) my non-racist remainer pensioner sister and brother in law who live in Spain are as pissed off as most (if not more) as they can now only spend half the year there.

Did any of them rollout vaccines faster than we did?

Depends on the question.

– Did any start their rollouts before we did?

NO

– Did any achieve high levels of vaccine coverage before we did?

YES

Most of the reluctance to participate, especially in later stages, were to do with costs not time though, IIRC. I don’t think any gained time advantages in the way that we claim to have done, if anything they lagged behind by not participating.

My BIL has stopped saying “They need us more than we need them”.

That’s a definite positive.

Brexit benefits – lets start a list

…keeps STW in business – the page clicks generated must be bleedin’ huge!!

If Labour get in and we re-engage with the EU then STW is going down! 🙂

The potential future benefits are pretty obvious for anyone with an open mind but I doubt anyone on this thread is ready to consider them. Admittedly this requires a different government which is willing to break the consensus on austerity based economics but the potential benefits are real and massively transformative.

PS. Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high. Now I’m not saying it’s down to not being in the EU, but it’s a question that needs answering. It’s probably a factor, but how much of a factor is debatable.

Edit: Another real one is that there is now a growing realisation in this country that our problems are not to do with the EU but down to our own government who act in the interests of a small elite at the expense of the rest of the country. It was always too easy for the tories (and some labour people) to blame EU membership for low wages, lack of investment, inability of the govt to support industry/the economy etc. Now it’s pretty obvious to anyone who cares to look that all these things are a result of our own government and the policies it implements, and from that there is the potential for change. You can’t solve a problem until you identify what it is.

I got flashed by a speed camera on my drive through France and never so much as received a letter which google suggests is a result of brexit, so a small personal win there to offset against the ruined retirement plans, and general hassle of travelling in Europe now

1/ Brexit has given a huge amount of new material to comedians.
2/ You would hope that people will now think more if offered a public vote.*
3/ Once we hit rock bottom our new masters will make sure everything improves.

* Available soon ‘Remember Brexit’ badges

😆 🤣

The potential future benefits are pretty obvious for anyone with an open mind but I doubt anyone on this thread is ready to consider them.

Go on… we’re all ears…

Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high.

And real terms wages are doing what exactly…?

High inflation outpacing wage growth

While wages are currently growing at a relatively fast pace, high inflation is currently cancelling this growth out, leading to the negative growth in real terms throughout 2022 and early 2023. Although it is likely that UK inflation peaked in October 2022, at 11.1 percent it has yet to fall below double figures as of March 2023. Forecasts from the Spring 2023 budget predict that the annual UK inflation will average out at 6.1 percent in 2023, before falling to 0.9 percent in 2024. Falling wages is just one of the aspects of the current Cost of Living Crisis, which has led to the steepest fall in living standards in a generation

https://www.statista.com/statistics/933075/wage-growth-in-the-uk/

The potential future benefits are pretty obvious

potential doing a lot of work there, the reality is that any benefits we have seen have been offset by the costs incurred, how many years will it take to reverse the damage of brexit before we can even think about net benefits

Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high. Now I’m not saying it’s down to not being in the EU

seeing as its still a pay cut and brexit has certainly helped increase inflation and as ever its the poorest thats hit the hardest

I’ve played this game with my gammony racist uncle a few times and even he can’t come up with any credible benefit. He thought he had me on Blue Passports but I pointed out that A: the colour has no bearing on its status as a legal document and B: we were able to choose the colour anyway when we were in the EU, we only changed to burgundy so as to signify out new status as an inclusive nation. The fact that the new ones are made abroad made his brain implode and he went off on a massive incoherent rant for a few minutes 🤣

The only (and this is really clutching at straws here) benefit I can come up with is that we can revert back to the old style number plates we had pre-2000 with wider letters. This is only a benefit to me as it means I can get a pair of legal new ones made up for my Mini rather than having to get some ‘show plates’ made up, which I have done and they’re sat on my parents kitchen roof to age them a bit so they don’t look too new. It’s never going to happen though as it makes no difference to anyone and I don’t think the older plates will work for a lot of reg numbers with any country identification marks as they would have to be longer and not fit on lots of people’s German Panzerwagons (SUV’s).

Counter that against the cost Brexit had cost me in £ that I can calculate (bought a Canyon after they hiked the prices, the parts I couldn’t buy from Germany and the nosedive in the pound) that is easily over £2k and I’d rather have what we had before and run ‘new’ plates on my classic toy.

It is then maintained by making life even harder for those outside this privilege group, and once you’re in it you’ll do ANYTHING not to drop out. Go live & work in the USA for a while, this is our destination – just don’t be poor (or unlucky)…

Ah, that’s me properly **** then ☹️

PS. Today it has been announced that basic wage growth is at a record high. Now I’m not saying it’s down to not being in the EU, but it’s a question that needs answering. It’s probably a factor, but how much of a factor is debatable.

But when you take into account inflation we are markedly poorer. The wage growth is fuelled by inflationary pressures, not a good thing at all.

I get a lot of pleasure from those who after 7 years are still crying “WAHH everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist.”
Perhaps the remain side should have made a stronger case at the time?

None.

There should be a separate  queue for the people who voted for Brexit at the borders.

I feel sorry for the school leavers who can’t spend a summer/winter working on a campsite, bar, ski resort etc.

The only potential “advantage” maybe that Scottish people who see how badly the divorce from the EU has gone may reconsider how they vote in terms of independence.

Please someone convince me that Brexit has been a good idea? My wife works in the NHS, the extra £350 million a week seems to be missing!