Brexit benefits – lets start a list

@Cougar has it – you saw a lot of it around here.  Life long labour supporters who would rather have a Tory government than put up with a Labour offering that was anything less than their own idea of the perfect.

But no in answer to @fenderextender’s  question, no. None. Nothing. Nada. Niet.

“surrender our hard fought for Brexit freedoms“

it’s all about the sound bite, I can’t remember a much fighting happening more worrying about using a pencil.

TBH anyway to get back on track we’re on our 30th page and I’m pretty sure that the previous 29 weren’t  full of Brexit Benefits 🙂

Nope. This is often trotted about by the starmerites which neatly ignores no one is truly expecting them to do that.

I’m no Starmerite. Absolutely the best thing I can say about him is he’s not wearing a blue rosette, he makes John Major look exciting. That is the single solitary reason I voted Labour in the GE and I highly doubt that I’m far from alone in this.

And there are plenty of people who are absolutely expecting him to do that. All the gammons have had their ball taken away and they really don’t like it. Despite Starmer’s (perceived or actual) inaction, they’re running scared.

At some point either he has to challenge the right wing rags or accept they run the country. The time to challenge is as early as possible so that the benefits are seen before the election.

On this we agree.

There’s a perverse irony that most everyone can see that we need reform, but the only party literally with Reform in their name is promising the same only a lot more of it. Which of course is their game plan, plenty of useful idiots in this country. Where the Right obliterates the Left time after time after time and we never learn from it is, they know how to appeal to their audience.

Starmer is about to “surrender our hard fought for Brexit freedoms“… according the Leader of the Opposition at PMQs. No ideas which freedoms she means.

Who cares what Badenoch thinks? Her party is either going to wither away to nothing or (most likely) merge with Reform. Either way she is never going to be PM.

She ‘won’ the leadership when the pool of contenders (six) represented 5% of all the Tory MPs in parliament. She’s a laughing stock.

And, in any case, she couldn’t name a Brexit benefit or freedom because there aren’t any.

So, basically, she can STFU.

I sometimes wonder how anybody could think Farage will ever become PM. Then I remember about America.

Incidentally, talking of Musk Rat – he just started following me on Twatter.

Does this mean I’m in line for being cancelled?

The big snowflake.

I sometimes wonder how anybody could think Farage will ever become PM. Then I remember about America.

I sometimes wonder how anybody could think Farage will ever become PM. Then I remember about the UK.

^ Fair enough #brexit

I sometimes wonder how anybody could think Farage will ever become PM. Then I remember about the UK.

Around 1 in every 6 voters who voted back in July voted for Reform.

I still don’t think enough people get this. Walk down any high street, or attend any event with more than 100 people – you’ll be passing/with double figures of people who voted or would vote for Reform, Farage and all they bring with them.

It’s horrendous, perplexing, hilarious and terrifying all at the same time.

Around 1 in every 6 voters who voted back in July voted for Reform.

Thank **** for first past the post, eh?

Theres also this…https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-elon-musk-trump-reform-b2665769.html

The future is grim.

Thank **** for first past the post, eh?

PR has long been a way-in for extremists.

PR has long been a way-in for extremists.

No its not and FPTP has given us numerous hard right tory governments on a minority of the vote

PR has long been a way-in for extremists.

I know.

Its lucky the US presidental system doesnt work that way otherwise god knows who they would have ended up with.

Yes PR is such a disaster as you can easily see from basically every other democracy on the **** planet which are all complete basket-cases compared to the UK with its prehistoric and primitive approach to democracy.

And yet the only bit of the UK to have obtained its independence shows us that done right* PR brings stability and moderate government.

* PR-STV, a codified constitution with referendum lock, and sovereignty resting with the electorate.

Pr in Scotland.   No extremists elected.

Around 1 in every 6 voters who voted back in July voted for Reform.

That’s probably conservative (small ‘c’) numbers for the amount of people who voted for reform (small ‘r’) back in 2016.

People are, and rightly so, mostly pissed off. But pointing at a dinghy and screaming “it’s all their fault!!” does no-one any favours, it’s just misdirection.

We have just lost an extremist government, one that damaged the country and killed thousands.
They were only there thanks to FPtP

So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?

You’re off your **** rockers.

Without PR the next Conform  government will be in power for another 20 stretch.
We need to be able to vote FOR not AGAINST.

So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?

You’re off your **** rockers.

And this right here is the problem. Because as unpalatable as it may be the correct answer is yes. Country > people > individual. Valuing what I want over what the people want is the domain of the Far Right.

Here’s a question I genuinely don’t know the answer to, but in terms of enacting policy, is a single party government better in the sense that in theory, they should be able to guide in the country in their direction and not fracture their goals to accommodate the other parties in a coalition, and end up with a big lump of nothingness?

I completely see the arguments for PR, and I also known there’s been successful coalitions, but then also see coalitions made of 4+ parties having to play favours and promises to get anything passed?

And this right here is the problem. Because as unpalatable as it may be the correct answer is yes. Country > people > individual. Valuing what I want over what the people want is the domain of the Far Right.

I’m sure there were lots of folks saying that in early 1930s Germany too. I’m not sure the UK in the 2020s has a trustworthy enough electorate, I’m afraid.

he just started following me on Twatter.

He blocked me…

I’m sure there were lots of folks saying that in early 1930s Germany too. I’m not sure the UK in the 2020s has a trustworthy enough electorate, I’m afraid.

I don’t doubt any of that. But espousing a form of politics which is little more than “getting what I want” is an equally dangerous route.

but then also see coalitions made of 4+ parties having to play favours and promises to get anything passed?

Which can, of course, also be true of the FPTP system when you have several parties combined into one. A good example would be the Biden years where a couple of more right wing democrats were effectively able to block most useful legislation.

Or closer to home we have the recent tory years.

I’m sure there were lots of folks saying that in early 1930s Germany too.

Not the best example, I am afraid, given chances are even with FPTP it would have ended up being a coalition and then ending up with the same result. Probably a better lesson to learn is why it is a bad idea to pander to the hard right. The DVP are a good lesson for the tories.

So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?

Absolutely, and why would any one who supports democracy not.

Still a minority, and stops folk commenting the usual bollox about “no one represents MY views”.

So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?

Yes – but actually it would not happen.  People vote differently under PR when every vote counts

Under PR we would not have had that succession of hard right damaging tory governments – social democracy has a huge inbuilt majority.  Its FPTP that has allowed those extreme right wing giovernments

The damage from Brexit to trade links with the EU cost the UK £27bn in the first two years, but the overall impact was more limited than forecasters first estimated, according to the most comprehensive review of the issue since Britain fully left the bloc at the start of 2021.

Researchers based at the London School of Economics found that trade barriers had been a “disaster” for small businesses and had forced thousands to stop trading with EU nations.

And this is before we enact the most damaging barrier raising piece of legislation – which we have delayed for years and are now being sued by the EU for not doing

So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?

Absolutely. And Labour made to work with other parties to deliver for all voters. Having a big majority based on 1/3 of the vote isn’t democratic.

Researchers based at the London School of Economics found that trade barriers had been a “disaster” for small businesses and had forced thousands to stop trading with EU nations.

As was always going to be the case. Large multinational companies can cope, and will take market share from UK SMEs.

Large multinational companies as the name implies are geared up for the various regulations and rules for operating in various markets 🙂

Prior to Brexit any U.K. company could pretty much load stuff onto a lorry or van and send it anywhere in the E.U as simple as if it was a place in the U.K. and the opposite,everything was reciprocal, small companies could just post it out as if it was a U.K. address as it made no difference, they didn’t need an import/export department to handle the different documention/regulations and employee people to do this task.

It’s not a real surprise that having to handle the regulations for each EU country is challenging/uneconomical for companies used to just writing out the postal label.

also see coalitions made of 4+ parties having to play favours and promises to get anything passed?

The current Labour and Tory parties are already coalitions. That’s why there are so many factions in each, and also why both parties and their supporters were split by Brexit.  A lot of Labour voters are progressives, because social equality, but a lot of them are also socially conservative working class voters who want to be stood up for.  In reality they are completely different political alignments but they can’t split the party because they will never win, because of FPTP.  The arguing still happens, it just happens within the party.

Big test for Starmer hare and I have a nasty feeling its “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”

Unionists in NI are objecting to a new EU labelling requirement and calling for the “brake” clause from the Windsor agreement.

Interesting to see once again if his pro EU rhetoric is as previously just empty words and he pisses off the EU further by supporting the unionists of whether he has the strength to tell them to eff off

Of course there is a simple solution – accept the EU labelling across the UK!  Not a chance he will do that

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/20/keir-starmer-brexit-test-stormont-brake-northern-ireland

The current Labour and Tory parties are already coalitions

Refrom are basically a splinter group from the tories and look how it devastated their vote having the right wing vote split.  Look what happened with the SPD – split the labourr vote and gave us tory governments

To all the cheerleaders for PR, I should point out that here in Spain at least it certainly has led to the more extremist parties getting significant political power: the central government has the hard* left in coalition with the centre* left Socialist party, and the hard* right are running a number of the Autonomous Communities (similar to states in the US) in coalition with the centre* right PP.

* your definitions of “hard” and “centre” should be applied here.

There’s a lot of political history to unpick in Spain before you can decide whether PR has given more power to, or held back extremist parties in recent times.

Yeah, clearly a completely different country. But blithely stating that no extremist party will ever acheive power under PR is, quite frankly, stupid. PR has a lot going for it, but it’s no panacea.

But blithely stating that no extremist party will ever acheive power under PR is, quite frankly, stupid.

Of course it is. Did someone say that? I missed it, sorry.