Brexit benefits – lets start a list

Rejoin could be done in a year with political will

That’s my point exactly – there is no will from the electorate to go through it all again. And don’t post the ‘most people now are remainers’ statistic AGAIN, that’s not the same thing at all. You are living in fantasy land if you think this is possible. Desirable, sure, but not possible currently.

How do we get the lost growth back?

Borrow to invest, like always.

Open your eyes man and stop letting yourself be gaslit

You cheeky bugger. Just because I disagree with you does not make me stupid or ignorant. I’m very well aware of the issues, more issues than you apparently. I’m pointing out all the ones you’re ignoring (as is everyone else on the forum).

  I get so frustrated with this

If you can’t discuss things with throwing about the insults, maybe time to step away a bit?

Rejoining the EU would not be a quick, or easy process, the UK would have to hold a referendum, then go to the EU to become a candidate and then formally go through the process, a long process, then recommended for membership.

This of course comes after all of the EU countries agree that we can apply for membership, and then have it agreed through the European Parliament, again, not a quick process.

The real fun will be how the UK joins without those opt-outs we had previously (Euro/ECB/Shengen/etc), as well as the rebate we had and our standing in the EU previously. The big question is how many EU nations would want us back, and what is the risk of us changing our minds again, what if the UK in 2035 is more right wing, can we just vote again, and leave yet again, what stops that?

That’s my point exactly – there is no will from the electorate to go through it all again.

the vast majority want to rejoin.  Its perfectly possible.  The only reason its not on the table for the UK is due to Starmers conversion to being a brexiteer and his constant gaslighting over it.  all the so called obstacles are imaginary.

You cheeky bugger.

Apologies again

 the UK would have to hold a referendum,

No it wouldn’t.  No more than it had to hold a referendum to trigger A50.

The only referendum was an advisory one with multiple conflicting visions of what leaving the EU meant.  If there was going to be a ‘proper’ (ie, not advisory and with all the increased oversight that goes along with it) referendum then it should have been on whether the UK government was in a position to trigger A50.

But yes, enough politicians have said, ‘not in my lifetime’ often enough that the message has stuck so I doubt anyone has anything to worry about in terms of rejoining anytime soon.

People have allowed themselves to be convinced that rejoining will be a more arduous task than leaving was and for some reason seem quite happy to remain out for the rest of their lives.

**** the electorate.

They ballsed it up once – take the choice out of it.

We’re not having a referendum on VAT on private school fees or winter fuel payments. No need to have one on (re)join either.

People have allowed themselves to be convinced that rejoining will be a more arduous task than leaving was

Who said that?

The only reason its not on the table for the UK is due to Starmers conversion to being a brexiteer and his constant gaslighting over it.

You honestly believe that’s the *only* reason?

Who said that?

Keir Starmer said not in his lifetime.  Many on here have echoed similar sentiments.

Leaving only took 4 years.  Triggering A50 took less than a year.

Why is rejoining going to take so much longer?

nickc

‘settled’ and so recently

The referendum was 8 years and 5 prime ministers ago! I’m sure we now have all the evidence we need that it was a bad decision and that it’s time to turn things around.

I know Starmer’s terrified of the lexiteers (and Farage) but FFS man, grow a pair.

You honestly believe that’s *only* reason?

yes.  Both major English parties are brexiteer parties and Starmer is constantly gaslighting over it.  Here the two parties of government are pro Europe pro rejoin and thus we get a very different take on it.  IIRC over 80% of the scots electorate want rejoin.

Accession would not be a long process.  Thats a bit of the gaslighting.

A rejoin referendum would have a massive rejoin majority

Bruce – we haven’t actually finished leaving yet.  We still have not implemented the import checks legally required and are in breach of the withdrawal agreement in a number of areas

Why is rejoining going to take so much longer?

Because it’s not up to the UK this time.

Leaving only took 4 years.  Triggering A50 took less than a year.

I see… by “arduous” you mean take longer. I’m not sure that’s the case… we’re still years off having completed the process of being outside the EU… and it’s already been 5 years since we first had a government declaring we would leave. Joining doesn’t have to take any longer than leaving for it to be a long drawn out process. What people are saying its that we’re not joining any time soon… and even if a UK government decided to join, which was never on the cards at any recent election, it would not be in charge of the timetable to join… or the nature of the deal.

Bruce – we haven’t actually finished leaving yet.

True, but if you fancy going and working in Europe for a while then I think you’ll find that for all intents and purposes the UK has most definitely left the EU.

However, it does go to show that leaving is far more complex than rejoining would be.  Particularly given the UK is a former member.

Where the gaslighting comes in (which many on this forum seem particularly keen on) is to use the complexity of leaving as evidence that rejoining will be equally as if not more complicated than leaving.  That is simply not true.

Because it’s not up to the UK this time.

A serious point.  It would need cap in hand begging but if thats what is needed thats what sould be done

Every day we are out the damage compounds.  The sooner we are back in the better.

failed to find and actual benefits.

Have I missed any since?

No, I don’t think so WCA

Not quite true. I got three hundred quid VAT back on the skis I bought in Austra in February…

Elephant. Room.

Ro-Elephant-om surely?

Also, regarding rejoining…. People seem to be ignoring the big issue of whether the Europes want us back   over the last X years “we” have shown ourselves collectively to be pigshit thick ignorant scum.  Insell Affen as the Germans are wont to call us.  The chances of if getting all 27 nations to welcome us back is zero.

you’ll find that for all intents and purposes the UK has most definitely left the EU

There’s yet more cost and time to come.

Joining would have a (lower) cost and take many (but perhaps fewer) years than leaving. But it wouldn’t be cost free or quick… that’s fantasy. Is it worth the cost and time in my opinion, absolutely… is the UK and the British public ready to swallow that right now… I doubt it… despite it being bloody obvious we haven’t gained from leaving, and would benefit long term if back in.

The real fun will be how the UK joins without those opt-outs we had previously (Euro/ECB/Shengen/etc), as well as the rebate we had and our standing in the EU previously. The big question is how many EU nations would want us back, and what is the risk of us changing our minds again, what if the UK in 2035 is more right wing, can we just vote again, and leave yet again, what stops that?

I think pragmatism would win out as our memership benefits both us and the EU, I think we can probably keep the £, but kiss goodbye to the sweet rebates we had and have to accept SM and CU, which comes bundled with FOM.

Perhaps a ‘half way’ option like the ‘soft brexit/Norway type deal” that brexiteers were actualy sold, before being crashed out hard by the tories, might be a more realistic option to start with?

and what is the risk of us changing our minds again

I think the UK would need tighter legislation around referendums…as in they would have to be ‘official’ rather than advisory like we had, in which a lot of the checks and balances you would expect, around dodgy campaign funding, misinformation, a requirement for a real majority, ie. a proper majority, say 65% rather than 51% (or something) etc, simply didn’t apply to an advisory referendum.

Perhaps a ‘half way’ option like the ‘soft brexit/Norway type deal” that brexiteers were actualy sold, before being crashed out hard by the tories, might be a more realistic option to start with?

In the SM & CU for the mutual benefit of all that, but no longer a leading power in the EU proper, is the most likely the best long term relationship we can hope for. I can’t see any future French government wanting the UK as an equal in Europe again.

I got three hundred quid VAT back on the skis I bought in Austra in February…

Which you then smuggled back into the UK?

Unless a government calls Brexit out for what it was/is, we’re stuck with it.

And the problem here is twofold, IMHO.

Firstly, Labour won the election not on their own merits but because the Tories were so mind-bogglingly shit. Their balance of power is on a knife-edge and they would have to be astonishingly myopic not to realise this. Their number one goal right now will be to secure control ahead of the next GE and the absolute last thing they’re going to be going if they have any brains at all is anything likely to be controversial/divisive amongst its electorate.

Whilst I concede that I have been historically terrible at predicting the future, I fully expect Labour to tread water for a few years until the dust settles.  They don’t have to be great, they just have to not do anything stupid.

Secondly, outside of argumentative threads on cycling forums, the public has reached Brexit Fatigue as Mols suggests. The Remainers have scored a bit of an own goal here in so far as, thanks to various fudges, deadline extensions and outright cheats along with a wholesale Ctrl-C Ctrl-V of EU legislation into English Law, the sky has thus far failed to fall in as widely predicted. As far as the great unwashed is concerned, brexit “got done” and regardless of political viewpoint there is little appetite from most people to reopen Pandora’s Brexit again. People are, not to put too fine a point on it, sick to ****ing death of hearing about it.

the UK would have to hold a referendum

No it wouldn’t. The UK would have to have politicians who did the job they’re paid to do. Which of course is even less likely.

Why is rejoining going to take so much longer?

I dunno, I reckon I could knock a garage down a lot faster than I could build one.  Doubly so if the neighbours were of the mind that I could stick my garage up my arse and were demanding to see whether I had planning permission.

is the UK and the British public ready to swallow that right now

The vast majority want to rejoin.  70% of labour voters, 80% of the scots electorate, significant majority UK wide

the public has reached Brexit Fatigue

only in some circles / areas and only because they are constantly being fed lies about it.  This simply does not apply here IMO because we have pro europe parties in power

The failure of brexit and the need to rejoin comes up frequently in conversation here – perhaps also in part because the damage caused is so obvious here

The vast majority want to rejoin. 70% of labour voters, 80% of the scots electorate, significant majority UK wide

I’m sure you’ve told us that before at some point ?

Starmers conversion to being a brexiteer 

Utter rubbish, he’s a pragmatist who realises that re-joining the EU is one of the many things on the UK’s ‘To Do List’ but before he can even start the process he’s to fix loads of other far more important (and structural) issues.

Put it another way, Scotland has a better chance of joining the EU as an independent country than the UK has of been let back in – that’s how big the ‘ask’ is.

But thanks for reminding me of my underlying hatred of those who peddled Brexit and the gullible idiots that voted for it; and don’t get me started on the sheer contempt I have for folk that still support it.

I’m sure you’ve told us that before at some point ?

correct – and I will keep on reminding folk when they say there is no appetite for rejoin –

Utter rubbish, he’s a pragmatist who realises that re-joining the EU is one of the many things on the UK’s ‘To Do List’ but before he can even start the process he’s to fix loads of other far more important (and structural) issues.

What else do you call someone who supports brexit and continually lies about it? ” make the most of the opportunities” FFS  We all know there are none

Fixing those other issues without rejoining is like trying to climb a tree with your hands tied behind your back.  that 22 billion hole in finances?  the benefirt from rejoin is hugely larger than that and the losses from brexit are larger than that

**** the electorate.

You know how democracy works, don’t you?

the vast majority want to rejoin.

It’s not as clear cut as you think:

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48260-four-years-after-brexit-what-future-forms-of-relationship-with-the-eu-would-britons-support

And there’s a massive difference between wanting to rejoin in principle and wanting to kick off another protracted political crisis. Do you think that it would all go smoothly? I think you are massively overlooking the subtle but profound impacts of making a snap unilateral decision here.

I will keep on reminding folk when they say there is no appetite for rejoin

That’s not what I said.

What else do you call someone who supports brexit and continually lies about it?

You are being incredibly dense on this point. I am at work today. Does that mean I want to be at work? **** no, it’s a lovely day and I want to be out on my bike. But for pragmatic reasons I know I need to work. So whilst I don’t want to work, I also don’t want to lose my job, so I am choosing to work. I trying as hard as I can to get a promotion and a raise, even though I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to work, but I also want to work at the same time. Do you get my point?

and I will keep on reminding folk when they say there is no appetite for rejoin

Possibly you should reflect on how well the patented TJ ‘Batter them into submission’ approach has worked for you in the past.

We are all well aware of what the polls have been saying for a while now. There are very good reasons for thinking that those polls would not translate into a landslide victory in a referendum, particularly since any future vote would be likely to be more professionally run, requiring at least a majority of those entitled to vote, and maybe also a greater than 50% vote share. That is how things work in many countries that use referendums more frequently.

It’s a shame that teamhurtmore and jambalaya are no longer with us to provide their views on how things have gone, and why.

As to rejoining- we’ll never get the opt-outs back, and there’s a couple of dealbreakers in there (imo) – adoption of euro, and ‘ever closer union’. Can’t see many of the British public being happy with having to pick up either of those, irrespective of location on the leave/remain scale.

Which you then smuggled back into the UK?

Yep. Having seen all these documentaries about drugs mules I thought it would be a simple case of wrapping them in sellophane and shoving them up ….

Slashed myself to ribbons I tell you …

Might be worth re-visiting this article from 6 yrs ago…

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2018/jul/24/two-50-or-100-years-when-do-leavers-think-brexit-will-pay-off

So by the time we as a nation wish to rejoin – it might not be worth it..

(that last sentence was not typed with a straight face)

I reckon that once we realise, this autumn, thanks to biometric controls, that getting into Europe for business and vacations has become even more arduous than it currently is – i reckon folks might want to do the EFTA thing as a minimum. And when they realise the only way that Labour can fix the finances and that the only way we can rebuild a civic society that works, is with tax rises cos growth is too difficult outside the EU,  then the EU becomes a deal that we can’t afford not to take. I’m hoping that the number of questions in HoC already about fixing Brexit suggests that Starmer will have to confront this sooner than we think

Can’t see many of the British public being happy with having to pick up either of those, irrespective of location on the leave/remain scale.

the british public are more liberal, and more open to Europe than we are lead to believe, and less bothered about the Great britain that the brexiters were banging on abou. And that’s only going to keep going that way with demographic change

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/sep/03/pride-britain-history-falls-sharply-social-attitudes-survey

reckon that once we realise, this autumn, thanks to biometric controls, that getting into Europe for business and vacations has become even more arduous than it currently is – i reckon folks might want to do the EFTA thing as a minimum.

The UK inside Schengen, but not an EU member (rather than the other way around as it used to be) is not an impossible next step (but not any time soon).

And that’s only going to keep going that way with demographic change

Absolutely. It’s a waiting game. Partly for the obvious to become so obvious that few can deny it. And partly due to who is still around to vote.

only in some circles / areas and only because they are constantly being fed lies about it.

The problem with this is line of thinking is, ipso facto, they are being fed lies about it. So we’re never going to address the issue until those lies get arrested, and frankly there’s more chance of me growing a second willy.

You know how democracy works, don’t you?

Do you?

A representative democracy such as the UK votes on people, not policies. People demonstrably cannot be trusted to vote in the best interests of the country over their own personal vagaries. (Arguably nor can politicians, but that’s a longer conversation.)

I think you are massively overlooking the subtle but profound impacts of making a snap unilateral decision here.

You’d think we’d have learned from last time, really.

It’s a shame that teamhurtmore and jambalaya are no longer with us to provide their views on how things have gone, and why.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I am unconvinced that at least one of those statements is incorrect.

No it wouldn’t.

I would bet money that any govt that tried to re-join the EU without a plebiscite would be; to misquote Kaufman “the quickest way to political suicide for that party” One of the reasons for many folks voting for Brexit was one in the eye for the ‘elites’, those very same ‘elites’ taking those people back in would be recieved quite badly, I’d wager.

The referendum was 8 years and 5 prime ministers ago!

And the decision to join was made in 1973. It might feel like it’s been a while, but reopening the debate isn’t something that any political party is currently keen on.