If the remnants of the UK might struggle to meet EU criteria to rejoin, I’m not sure an independent Scotland would either?

Let’s not do this again… Scotland can operate outside the UK, and rejoin the EU, if they want. They are looking more and more like a Nordic state chained to us as each day passes.

I don’t know what tilting windmills means. My issue wasn’t with the in or out vote just astonishment at the issues you raised that made you a reluctant out, I read your post outloud to Madame to check her reaction. Do I want to know why you became a “reluctant in” as opposed to just “in”? 😉

I live in NI. The town I live in saw the biggest increase in new residents from outside the UK and ROI between 2001 and 2011. + 1,139%. You can imagine the pressure that put on local services. It’s largely down to the presence of a number of large food processing plants in the area. The same pattern repeated in other towns with large factories or agri food sectors.

I can imagine the struggle remain had with a lot of folks. At the time property was ridiculously overpriced as all new builds were being snapped up by investors to rent to workers from Poland / Lithuania / Latvia etc. It was an easy lie to sell to people that this was all the fault of the EU. Very easy to paint the EU as only benefitting property speculators and employers looking to pay low wages while everyone else suffered.

More than a little bit proud that our constituency voted by a majority of 10,000 to remain.

I don’t know what tilting windmills means.

You need to speak to Don

We’re all a bit quixotic on here

Anyway surely some leavers must be thinking that a border round Kent was never mentioned on the bus & that maybe just maybe they’ve been sold a pup?

People don’t do admitting they were wrong any more kimbers, they ‘double down’.

+ 1,139%

A simple pecentage of EU migrants as a percentage of the whole poulation would be more informative and less sensationalist.

all the fault of the EU.

Suggests you think it was bad thing and yet your town benefitted from a highly productive low-paid workforce that enabled businesses to operate profitably to the benefit of both local and national economies whist the nations those workers left were deprived of some of their most youthful, mobile, motivated and hard working citizens. The UK didn’t even have to pay for their education and will probably never care for them in old age.

Sorry, you typed your post while I was typing mine Edukator.

The point I was trying to make is that the area I lived in was exceptionally affected by immigration from Poland, the Baltic states, East Timor, Brazil and Portugal. It was a pretty massive influx over a short period of time. Public services were being pushed to breaking point and property was becoming unaffordable. It would be easy in that scenario to conclude EU membership was impacting you negatively as that influx was on foot of freedom of movement.

Edit. Mon Dieu you really could start an argument in an empty room!

Whilst on about windmills it looks like Bozo is maybe wanting more here (Scotland) Is he sure that is a wise move given wee nics rise in popularity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54285497

We’re all a bit quixotic on here

<Gentle ripple of applause>

Any chance of a Catalan style unofficial independence vote in Scotland?

A simple pecentage of EU migrants as a percentage of the whole poulation would be more informative and less sensationalist.

10.4 % in 2011

Public services were being pushed to breaking point and property was becoming unaffordable.

The increase in population due migration from the EU is essential to this debate which you are calling an argument. You are making extremely strong anti-migration statements that I’m absultely certain aren’t substantiated by simple facts.

Property in many places in the UK was becoming unaffordable for that period some with next to no migrant pressure, and public services were under pressure from an ageing population, and increasly unheealthy and obese population, budget constraints due to autserity and real term spendong cuts.

Non were the fault of the EU. On the contrary the UK had low unemployment and skills shortages which meant migrants were an ecomomic bonus that more than paid for itself, migrants were net contributors to the economy throughout the period.

EDit: thank you for the 10% figure. A 10% increase in population does not mean you don’t hear an English speaker in a hospital for an hour because the hospital is overun with migrants. It means migrants are doing jobs in the hospital that wouldn’t be filled without migrant workers.

The NHS is one of the British instutions that has benefitted most from EU migration.

Any chance of a Catalan style unofficial independence vote in Scotland?

Not under the current SNP leadership.

And the question of what is/isn’t “official” has yet to be clarified in the courts.

Any chance of a Catalan style unofficial independence vote in Scotland?

Fraught with dangers the biggest of which is a boycott. All the unionist parties pledge a boycott. turnout drops dramatically from the previous one. It would not then confer legitimacy if yo uget say 80% yes on 40% turnout

Scotland can organise a non binding referendum ( like the brexit one!) without a section 30 order / westminster permission IIRC

Section 30 order has not been contested in court in any way so we do not know really if Scotland could organise an official binding referendum without Westminster permission. Legal opinion is divided but mainly on the side of “permission is needed.

I think the SNP will use the May holyrood elections as a defacto referendum. That then gives legitimacy to the demands assuming as looks likely a significant pro independence majority. If Westminster refuses a section 30 order and / or the courts rule against it then its a very interesting situation with some obvious parallels to Eritrea and Kosovo both of whom (IIRC) had a referendum without permission from the parent country that was deemed illegitimate by the parent country but was recognised by the UN resulting in both countries gaining independence

If Westminster atttempts to block a scottish referendum that is mandated by the Holyrood elections we do get into very interesting areas.

Deleted

Checking out some districts in NI I’m failing to find a place with a 10% population increase due to net EU migration for one year.

Can you point me to the relevant documents in here:

https://www.nisra.gov.uk/publications/long-term-international-migration-statistics-northern-ireland-2019

Stop trying to start an argument, he doesn’t want to play, Edukator.

I’m not starting an argument, I’m countering anti-EU propaganda with facts.

And who are you to order me around, Martinhutch?

No Edokator – you are being unpleasant and trying to pick a fight. He has outlined his reasons and his conversion to another point of view. Let it drop.

that the area I lived in was exceptionally affected by immigration from Poland, the Baltic states, East Timor, Brazil and Portugal. It was a pretty massive influx over a short period of time. Public services were being pushed to breaking point

As a percentage of the population, there are more immigrants working in the NHS than there are using it. The net “exceptional affect [sic] by immigration” is that public services improve.

Public services at breaking point is a government failure. Blaming it on immigrants is an easy copout for them. Genuinely all it is- immigration fuels the economy and also provides workers for public services, services would be worse off without it not better. So it’s just a matter of proper resourcing and localisation.

Cynics might think some governments don’t like public services and are very happy to let them collapse as long as they don’t have to take the blame.

Blaming it on immigrants is an easy copout for them patients.

Or less generously,

Blaming it on immigrants is an easy copout for them racists.

No Edokator – you are being unpleasant and trying to pick a fight. He has outlined his reasons and his conversion to another point of view. Let it drop.

That’s insulting and an attempt at bullying, TJ. I know you don’t like me, you’ve made it perfectly clear on every thread I’ve made a heartfelt contribution to recently. And who are you to order me around.

Try playing the ball not the man, Tj. The ball here is not “conversion” it’s his attitude to imigration and migrants (which I am in case you’d forgotten, as an economic migrant and naturalised immigrant you’ll forgive me for feeling personlly concerned and targetted). You are wel placed to know how much the NHS has benefitted from immigration and have raised the problems of recruitment in your own workplace in reelation to Brexit yourself.

I work for the public services. Immigrants very rarely use our service.

Try playing the ball not the man, Tj. The ball here is not “conversion” it’s his attitude to imigration and migrants

Suggest that ‘ball’ =/= person present? But fact and figures are useful for the thread. My Most Brexity Friend (not present) still believes that every problem with the NHS is caused by immigrants which in turn were caused by ‘lefties’. That is the sum total of his beliefs about the matter. He and I have had a long-running disagreement. He will go so far as to also believe that all data/statistics which conflict with his perception/opinion are easily passed off as ‘liberal propaganda’ from ‘lying leftie scum’. I kid you not.

I do not particularly dislike you Edukator. I very much dislike your bullying and hectoring which is what you are doing here.

You do pick fights – you have done it with me being very offensive. Perhaps its not what you intend but its very much how you come over much asd I have done and have tried to change

I am not ordering you. I am asking you. I should have added a please at the end which would have made that more clear and for that i apologise

Ding ding, seconds out, round 2.

In the red corner we have the edinburgh living, self identified sassenach…it’s big TEEE JAAAY!
In the blue corner we have our french correspondent, never known to be wrong…it’s disputatious big Ed, the self-proclaimed Edukator.
Join us later for round 3.
News! Hot off the press – big Ed has just issued an all-comers challenge!
Any subject, any time, any place!

🙂

I do think Edukator there is the missed nuance in text issue here.

As for the person you were attacking – he explained what he was feeling which cannot be wrong – thats what he felt. Thats a brave thing to do and leaves him open to attack

Again the way you posted and what I and others saw may not have been what you intended but it did appear to be picking a fight.

I intended my post as a plea you took it as an order which is poor writing from me

Perhaps ( a lesson I have tried to learn) looking for good and thinking about other interpretations might lead to less confrontation?

Immigration is of net benefit.

study after study shows immigrants work longer, harder and pay more to do so.

Larger working population equals more tax and a more vibrant economy

stretched public services is a function of ever decresing investment of GDP into looking after the people.

rightwing press blames immygrants.

it’s not rocket surgery.

I think you have misconstrued my point Edukator or I have not articulated it very well.

Put another way, my initial position was an emotional response to direct lived experience. The initial reaction was to superficially blame the stress on the NHS on a sudden and dramatic increase in population caused by free movement. A bit of thought led me to conclude the real genesis of the problem was underfunding by the UK government.

I took issue with EU ideology as I felt they were dogmatically expanding without giving a great deal of thought to the resources being deployed by member states to large scale movement of people and the increased demands on resources.

In essence we agree membership of the EU is a good thing and I have no issue with immigration. I lived through the troubles in NI and I welcome a more multi cultural trend away from two violently opposing homogenous groups. I do have an issue with underfunding and austerity. Increasing the number of people competing for access to a resource and not increasing the availability of the resource is going to create problems. Those problems were, in my view, successfully exploited by the Leave campaign. The blame for that lies in the UK, not the EU.

I beleive the EU tried to instigate a minimum social spending, but the combined fury induced aneurysms and rectal prolapses in response of our wonderfully munificent country put paid to that.

All I’m reading from Shooterman’s post is that sometimes under emotional stress it’s easy to try and place blame and find a simple reason for situations not being as they should. And from that position, it can be pretty easy to be manipulated and pointed in the wrong direction. The country in general clearly has millions of disenfranchised people still, this is only likely to increase given the pandemic and immediate impact of Brexit. To move back in the right direction, the disenfranchised must have a purpose or must be led. Sadly, I cannot see either of those things happening this decade 🙁

RichPenny has it. It’s all well and good flexing your intellect about macro economics etc but you are forgetting that a lot of people voted for Brexit as an emotional reaction to direct lived experience and identified the wrong target. To paraphrase Machiavelli, distraction is the essence of deception and we certainly have some political leaders who understand that thoroughly.

My own take is that Brexit has been manipulated into the grievance political issue for the UK in the same way race has in the US. It’s the cow that can be milked almost endlessly. The Brexit campaign understood how to manipulate emotion.

Immigration is of net benefit.

study after study shows immigrants work longer, harder and pay more to do so.

Larger working population equals more tax and a more vibrant economy

My problem with that statement is that net benefit is exceptionally abstract to a lot of people. If I am working on a building site, and there is a group of people arriving who are prepared to work longer and harder for less money, am I seeing the impact as a more vibrant economy or as a threat to my immediate livelihood? Add the austerity measures on top and we all know where it leads.

If I am working on a building site, and there is a group of people arriving who are prepared to work longer and harder for less money,not work cash in hand

Stop trying to start an argument, he doesn’t want to play, Edukator.

I’ve started treating this one with my ‘chewkw filter’. See the username, and keep on scrolling until I get to someone else’s post. It greatly increases my enjoyment of any thread graced by his/her presence.

Richpenny raises an excellent point. If the current trend towards populism is to be interrupted, there needs to be less focus on abstract concepts and a little more empathy.

Frequent foreign holidays, third level education, international job mobility, pension pot values, access to foreign holiday homes etc are simply things that are not a feature of a lot of people’s lives. My own pet theory is that’s how we ended up with Brexit – there was a hubris among the educated and middle classes that no one could be stupid enough to vote for Brexit.

Trying to stay with the original theme of this thread it may be that after a period of time being out of the EU when these folks’ lot has not improved they will deduce that their miseries had nothing to do with EU membership.

In more great Brexit news this morning, that sounds totally ‘sunlit uplands’, the supermarkets are saying in the event of ‘No Deal’ then the tariffs slapped on food will see a big rise in household bills.

Which with the economy in such great shape, and everyone feeling flush with optimism and awash with spare cash, is exactly what the country needs